Pentecostalism's Formidable Opponent

[chevyontheriver]

I should say disagrees with the Pentecostal doctrine regarding speaking in tongues. That's not found in Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, Baptist etc doctrine.

Catholics have always had a place for the miraculous. So too the Orthodox.

The Pentecostal denomonation didn't even exist until the 20th century.

That IS an issue.

Another thing MacArthur would disagree with is the Pentecostal teaching that one can lose their salvation.

Not just Pentecostals would think that.

 

[chevyontheriver]

It's prominence may have been sparked in the 20th century, but it's not un-biblical or a new phenomenon.

The event that preceded the Azusa Revival was a world-wide Catholic novena to the Holy Spirit led by the pope. Which makes me think God has a rich sense of humor. Today a very alive portion of the Catholic Church is charismatic. Maybe not aligned with the strangest stuff in Pentecostalism, but more aligned with someone like Bob Mumford.

 

[ozso]

Catholics have always had a place for the miraculous. So too the Orthodox.

Taking place every Mass?

 

[chevyontheriver]

It’s quite simple really, the charismatic movement is simply trying to solidify the spiritual truth that is from God through the flesh, which is unredeemed … The obvious is in Daniel speaks of when the last days are
Daniel 12:4 (KJV)
4But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Jesus while here on earth warned us that in the last days signs and wonders would be performed by the devil
Matthew 24:24-25 (KJV)
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it werepossible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25Behold, I have told you before.

My main question is: If Jesus warned us about signs and wonders being performed by devils and demons why are we not listening to that? Instead the charasmatics are leading people into the signs and wonders as proof…

Signs and wonders should be seen as indicators and not by themselves as proofs. It was so with the miracles of Jesus.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Taking place every Mass?

That too. But also healings, driving out demons, apparitions, private revelations, and tongues. There is a healthy skepticism which accepts some of that, but rejects some of it too.

 

[rocknanchor]

No doubt, a solid reminder for those of us who have our eyes fixed on Jesus, not on the miraculous that God will continue to do (Mk 16:17, Gal 3:5)

Jesus while here on earth warned us that in the last days signs and wonders would be performed by the devil
Matthew 24:24-25 (KJV)
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it werepossible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25Behold, I have told you before.

My main question is: If Jesus warned us about signs and wonders being performed by devils and demons why are we not listening to that? Instead the charasmatics are leading people into the signs and wonders as proof…

Agree with all of Jesus warnings, including His warnings through the Apostles. Let's not sweep blasphemy against the Holy Spririt too far from this context. Are you saying my verses in the above could lead to demonic activity?

 

[enoob57]

Agree with all of Jesus warnings, including His warnings through the Apostles. Let's not sweep blasphemy against the Holy Spririt too far from this context. Are you saying my verses in the above could lead to demonic activity?

Be careful when you read something not to read into it. It’s very often done with people even with written scripture…. What I wrote was start to finish a complete thought I had concerning all this. I do find it telling that you did not answer the question I put forth…. Just saying….

 

[rocknanchor]

My main question is: If Jesus warned us about signs and wonders being performed by devils and demons why are we not listening to that?

I do find it telling that you did not answer the question I put forth

Really? Then in your desperation to defend the cessationist's position, you are not retaining what you read.

I, Agree with all of Jesus warnings, including His warnings through the Apostles.

It is the Spirit who teaches the way of soundness when ALL HIS WARNINGS are brought to the table. The reason I asked if those two instances are among those that lead to demonic activity (which you did not answer), is to see if you are trying to promote soundness, or refusal.

Be careful when you read something not to read into it.

I have no reason to believe that any of us in this discussion are novices in the word. Problems occur after some error of bias occurs and we accept a condition (cessation) which is why you could not bring yourself to answer my question of your treatment of (Mk 16:17) and (Gal 3:5). You wish there was an instance in the epistles that says after their passing all signs and wonders will cease, but there isn't. There is only one thing the Apostle said would cease and that is un-interruption of soundness (Acts 20:29).

What I wrote was start to finish a complete thought I had concerning all this.

Correction, complete promotion. Else, if it were soundness you had in mind you would have defended it with a refusal to tamper with the spirit of those two references' possibility to cite and encourage a blasphemous possibility.

My main question is: If Jesus warned us about signs and wonders being performed by devils and demons why are we not listening to that?

True Pentecostalism holds well to this warning (Heb 12:2). How does Gal 3:5 operate in a world of ''false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders'', when it so closely resembles the other, these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues? I just told you (Heb 12:2), I just told you only one thing was mentioned to cease for a time, soundness. We always give thanks for everything He has given us to live victoriously yet, with contentment with such things as we have. If you cannot attest in the affirmative to these things, then you are still held atop a pinnacle of promotion of man's longstanding imagination.

 

[PatrickTate]

''John McArthur, the de facto leader of one of American Protestantism’s major contemporary wings, died on July 14, 2025, at the age of 86, ,

To many Christians, MacArthur’s major theological battles were with Pentecostals, and many saw great confusion, even harm, to the church. He championed what he called “Cessationism,” the argument that the Gifts of the Spirit — ministry blessings conferred to Christian converts in the Age of the Apostles, nine in number, including gifts of healing, wisdom, prophecy, ecstatic prayer, knowledge — were obsolete after the first century. Pentecostals asked for a Biblical citation about their expiration, but none exists.''

SOURCE

I was gotten out of Atheism by another one of Pentecostalism's major opponents, Pastor General Herbert W. Armstrong and his son Evangelist Garner Ted Armstrong.

I separated from the Worldwide Church of God in 1991 because I was led to see that their teachings on the Soul Sleep doctrine were terribly flawed and in error.

I have been led to now be mentored more so by Pentecostal and Charismatic Catholic theologians more so than by anybody else.

My past six years have been a time of coming up out of a very dark lukewarm state and I am so glad that Jesus led me to begin to listen to online lecture after lecture by near death experiencer Kevin Zadai Th. D.

Here is a quotation from Dr. Zadai's forty eight page booklet that summarizes his NDE and there is no way that I could argue or debate with what Dr. Zadai was shown:

[Near death experiencer Kevin Zadai Th. D.] : "Jesus shared with me about the time He spent in hell after dying on the cross. He said during the time He was cut off from the Father and the Holy Spirit, He experienced torment and punishment for everyone's sins so that we could escape the pain and punishment we deserve. no human being needs to go to hell because Jesus paid the debt created by all our sins.

He was extremely passionate when He talked about His anguish of separation from God. He said that He had to go deep within Himself to remember and rehearse His identity with the Father because circumstances were screaming the opposite.

ABANDONED BY GOD

Think about it: Jesus had never experienced a moment without the Father's presence until He was dying on the cross and uttered, "'Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?' that it, 'My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?'" [Matthew 27:46] Satan thought he had defeated Jesus until He received the command from the Father to walk out of hell and take with Him the righteous dead. The Apostle Paul reported in the book of Ephesians, "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men" [Ephesians 4:8-9]. In Revelation 1:18, Jesus said of Himself, "I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death."

The Father promised Jesus that by His following through with the salvation plan, God would unite humanity with Him in a plan for their redemption. Jesus expressed to me with great emotion, in a broken voice, the anguish He went through for us and His great longing that I share its importance with everyone who would listen:
"And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2L8-11."

[Heavenly Visitation, Encountering the Supernatural Jesus, Outreach Edition, Kevin L. Zadai Th. D., page 15 - 17].

 

[rocknanchor]

I have been led to now be mentored more so by Pentecostal and Charismatic Catholic theologians more so than by anybody else.

I must say, some of which are NOT to be underestimated.

My past six years have been a time of coming up out of a very dark lukewarm state and I am so glad that Jesus led me to begin to listen to online lecture after lecture by near death experiencer Kevin Zadai Th. D.

I would like to advise to not being overly swept by the many NDE testimonies. Consider the value of thoughts on the subject of those who have subjected themselves at length on the subject, ,

SOURCE

 

[PatrickTate]

I must say, some of which are NOT to be underestimated.

I would like to advise to not being overly swept by the many NDE testimonies. Consider the value of thoughts on the subject of those who have subjected themselves at length on the subject, ,

SOURCE

Then again these testimonies, [and that is what they really are], have helped me come up out of a very dark place that I don't want to slide back down into. Taking nearly two hundred online courses by Kevin Zadai Th. D. has turned me into a much less messed up Christian and human being.

 

[rocknanchor]

Then again these testimonies, [and that is what they really are], have helped me come up out of a very dark place that I don't want to slide back down into. Taking nearly two hundred online courses by Kevin Zadai Th. D. has turned me into a much less messed up Christian and human being.

To introduce them (testimonies) to the young convert who may be also swept along by being unskilled in the Word, would not in my opinion be wise. As the author put it,

'', ,while NDEs can be a blessing, they can also be a danger to one’s faith. We must approach these experiences with caution and discernment, ensuring that they align with Biblical teachings and do not contradict the Word of God.''