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What Is Paul's Definition of NT Prophecy?

ARBITER01

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Oh-oh! Did I step into an argument! :eek:
Not really.

Some people are just further along with certain subjects in Christianity, while others have a limited growth on them. Some of it comes down to a choice of where a person wishes to associated themselves at, while some of it comes down to opportunity., ie is The Holy Spirit operating at a particular church in my area that I can join.

But no, it's not really an argument more than an exposure of sorts.

Is MacArthur dead yet?
 
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We believe the prophets ended when the Word of God was completed in AD 96.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come [the Bible], then that which is in part shall be done away.

And we like to put it this way:

The OT prophets FORETOLD the Truth.
The NT prophets FORTHTELL the Truth.

In other words, the NT prophets are our preachers today.
The context is about the end of the church age which is still in the future. All the really competent Bible commentators know that from John Calvin onward. The Scripture does not say that the perfect is the Bible. That is just your speculative addition. Paul's canon of Scripture was the Old Testament when he wrote 1 Corinthians.
 
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Why do you raise this ???

Are you intimating that I did not handle the issue wisely ?

Was praying about how to wisely deliver the Word for 12 months not enough?

The Word was delivered in writing to him alone in confidence.

Nothing was 'blown wide open'

Are trying to 'correct' the way I acted ?

The Church was not a safe place to fellowship.

The son was a youth group leader.

Women were at risk.

Our Word was dismissed - we had to leave.
Don't get your nose out of joint! I just gave my opinion and you have every right to take it or leave it. What does the Scripture say? "Give advice to a wise man and he will love you for it."
 
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Carl Emerson

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Don't get your nose out of joint! I just gave my opinion and you have every right to take it or leave it. What does the Scripture say? "Give advice to a wise man and he will love you for it."

That is exactly what I did but he was unfortunately not wise...
 
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Carl Emerson

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Don't get your nose out of joint! I just gave my opinion and you have every right to take it or leave it. What does the Scripture say? "Give advice to a wise man and he will love you for it."

You were criticising one of the most difficult things I have had to do - not done lightly and not without much prayer.
 
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That is exactly what I did but he was unfortunately not wise...
It is obvious that if the pastor was not going to accept your word and exercise church discipline as he should, then he disqualifies himself as a pastor in the body of Christ. Therefore his ministry is not of the Holy Spirit and therefore unreliable. I think you did the right thing leaving that church because by continuing to support that pastor by sitting under his ministry, you would have been partaking of his sin. Eli came off second best because as priest in Israel, he failed to discipline his two sons, and as a result they came to an ignominious end and he died a premature death.
 
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You were criticising one of the most difficult things I have had to do - not done lightly and not without much prayer.
Many of the OT prophets were killed because they stood up against the idolatry that was happening. In a church with corrupt leadership it is those who stand up against the corruption who are the ones who suffer the most.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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When prophecies are given, they must be evaluated. Paul taught the Thessalonians to "test all things and hold to that which is good." The test is to determine the effect that the prophecy has on the listeners. If a prophecy is given and no one understands what is being said, then the prophecy fails the test, because it has said nothing of substance and therefore falls short of Paul's definition of prophecy. If a prophecy predicts a future event such as "this year there will be a wave of refreshing across the body of Christ with signs, wonders, and miracles" and nothing happens by the end of the year, then it also fails the test because what was predicted never happened.
This part of the OP reminds me of what Jesus taught, "the Truth will set you free"

In the same way that edification can be measured by how many it reaches, so can truth by how many it sets free, or in contrast - places in bondage.

So a prophecy that does not set people free is not really of Jesus because He also said in the same book, that He is the Truth.

Sometimes the guise of prophecy or even spirituality is used to enslave people with burdens that those speaking do not lift one finger to help carry .. thus it is exposed to those with eyes to see and ears to hear .. not of Christ, but of those who would have crucified Him if He were here today.

Very good to keep in mind.
 
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Advance warning: This is a long post, so get your spiritual knives and forks out and dig into it.

Overnight I had some interesting new thoughts about NT prophecy. I thought through 1 Corinthians 14 and consider what Paul actually said about prophecy and what he didn't say.

Firstly, he didn't say that NT prophecy was the direct voice of God Nor did he say that it has a predictive component. Therefore I conclude that these were not components of prophecy as far as Paul was concerned.

Secondly, what he did say was that we prophesy "in part", meaning that NT prophecy is incomplete, imperfect. If prophecy came from the direct voice of God as was OT prophecy, then it would have been complete and perfect, because what God does directly is perfect.

Paul says that the purpose of prophecy is for the encouragement, exhortation, and comfort of believers in the body of Christ. Therefore any prophecy that does not encourage, build up or comfort other believers does not fit within Paul's definition of it.

Also, prophecy exposes the hearts of the listeners, especially outsiders who come into the gathering. What I have observed on occasions is that a prophetic word has such an impact on the person, that they have fallen to their knees in tears getting right with God. I have seen this in meetings, where some of the most hard hearted men and women have had their hearts broken in the presence of God as the prophetic word has been spoken. On several occasions when I have given a prophetic word over a person, they have broken down in tears and turned back to Jesus as their Lord.

John, in the book of Revelation, says that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. When people have been confronted with the powerful testimony of Jesus through the prophetic word, they have turned to Him in genuine repentance.

What happens is that the person prophesying is prompted to give a prophetic word. He is not hearing God's voice. He decides to speak words that are appropriate to the building up of others, and the Holy Spirit speaks through those words to have an impact in the hearts of the listeners. The speaker is not aware of the impact. He is just obeying the prompting, and the Holy Spirit uses the words to speak to the listener's hearts.

The most powerful prophetic word came to me from a pastor's sermon. I was a visitor to a suburban Baptist church on five random Sunday evenings. On each evening the pastor preached on a particular topic and it was as though he was speaking directly to me in a way that he had "read my mail". I was just one person among 400 people, and the pastor did not know me at all. It was the Holy Spirit speaking directly to me through the pastor's sermon. He wasn't aware that he was being prophetic in his sermon, but it was certainly prophetic for me.

When CF had a prophetic ministry forum, I gave a number of prophecies on request, and a couple of people told me that when they read my prophecy, they broke down in tears because it spoke strongly to their hearts. I was not aware of the likely impact, because I gave prophecies just before I had to catch the bus to work and so I just had to write what came to mind. What I learned was that I give a word in faith without having any sense of the Holy Spirit in it, and it is the receiver that receives the impact when the Holy Spirit speaks to him or her. The moment someone says, "Thus says the Lord" in a prophecy it immediately proves that the prophecy is false, because Paul's definition of NT prophecy does not attach the direct authority of God to it.

Cessationists base their whole doctrine on the definition of just one word: "perfect" to teach that NT prophecy was limited to the time of the Apostles. Yet their definition of the word is not consistent with all the other meanings of "perfect" in other verses. Cessationist definition of "perfect" is just stupid nonsense, implying that Paul had advance knowledge of the completion of the NT Canon, when His view of Scripture was the OT Law and Prophets. This is why cessationists have a blind spot and can't acknowledge that there is true NT prophecy still active in the churches. They have to teach that all modern prophecy has to be false, and they use the flood of false prophecy on Youtube to try and prove their point. It makes a complete mockery of their claim that "we are keeping to God's Word". The truth is that God's Word does not support cessationism. They cannot show even one statement from either Jesus or Paul to show conclusively that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit, including tongues and prophecy were limited to just the lifetime of the last surviving Apostle.

In Romans, Paul says that we prophesy to the proportion of our faith. It takes faith to give an encouraging word to fellow believers, trusting that the Holy Spirit will speak to their hearts. Often the person prophesying is nervous because he has no way of knowing whether the word he is speaking will have any impact on the listeners.

Most of the Youtube prophecies are not real prophecies at all. Often they are just buzz word salads that don't say anything, and so there is no real impact on the hearts of the hearers. In Youtube videos of church services where prophecies are given, no one is falling to their knees in tearful repentance, because the Holy Spirit is not speaking through them.

There are Youtube videos of a particular church services where people are waving coloured flags around, and a guy who looks like Santa Claus gives very dramatic "thus says the Lord" prophecies that say basically nothing. No sign of any impact from the people. Just words spoken into the air. Yet that particular "prophet" is highly respected as a prominent Charismatic prophet. Such is the ignorance of what true NT prophecy is all about.
 
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Another point I want to make about NT prophecy.

Most of the prophecies that come out of the Prosperity doctrine services are just empty words, because for the Holy Spirit to speak through a prophecy, the speaker has to be genuinely converted to Christ through repentance of sin and trust in the Christ who bled and died on the Cross to take the punishment of God's wrath for their sins. The Prosperity doctrine speakers do not preach the Gospel and suppress those who attempt to introduce the Gospel in their conferences and meetings. Because they suppress the Gospel, these speakers and most of their listeners are not born again. Therefore, any prophetic word spoken is just a "nothing burger" because the unconverted speaker is still in his or her sins and subject to God's wrath. Because God is angry at the wicked (the unconverted) every day, then it stands to reason that any prophetic word they say has to be totally false.

Another interesting point I want to make is that Paul lists the five-fold ministries (apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher) as the foundation of the body of Christ and for the building up of it. Cessationists say that these ministries were just for the initial establishment of the Christian church and ceased once the church was firmly established. So, if the apostle and prophet ministry have ceased, why is the evangelist, pastor and teacher still active? Something doesn't add up here. If the five fold ministries were just for Apostolic times, then you would think that all five would have ceased. Consistency, thou art a jewel!

In actual fact, there are no statements from either Jesus or Paul that the five fold ministries were to cease at the end of the Apostolic Age. The implication was that the five fold ministries were to continue throughout the whole of the Church Age. Therefore these ministries are for today's church, because we are not at the end of the Church Age yet. Therefore, the NAR people are correct in their teaching that apostles and prophets, as well as evangelists, pastors, and teachers, are still valuable ministries for modern churches. The difficulty is that Paul did not provide an instruction manual for any of the five fold ministries, and so the NAR folks have had to make educated guesses, which have been far from perfect, drawing much criticism from their detractors.

Therefore the Scripture fully supports the modern existence of apostles and prophets, and we have to pick the meat from the bones as we consider how the NAR people apply those ministries. The problem is that the First Century believers knew exactly how the Prophet ministry operated. Agabus certainly wasn't the only prophet operating in the NT churches. But the knowledge of how NT prophets exercised their ministry has been lost to time, and all modern proponents of the Prophet ministry have to guess on how it should work.

One good indication of how the Prophet ministry might work is what Jesus said to the Seven churches at the start of the book of Revelation. He was acting as Prophet, and the manner of His words to the churches is a good starting point to knowing how a NT Prophet would be relating to our modern churches. It appears to me that a modern Prophet would be calling churches to get right with God and to get rid of the myths and fables that have replaced sound Gospel doctrine - that the churches recreate an environment where the Holy Spirit can move freely to fulfill the great commission to make disciples for Christ.

I suggest that the late David Wilkerson acted in the role of NT Prophet because he preached challenging messages about the importance of the church getting right with God.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Overnight I had some interesting new thoughts about NT prophecy. I thought through 1 Corinthians 14 and consider what Paul actually said about prophecy and what he didn't say.

Firstly, he didn't say that NT prophecy was the direct voice of God Nor did he say that it has a predictive component. Therefore I conclude that these were not components of prophecy as far as Paul was concerned.

Was it not prophetic and predictive when Peter announced that Ananias would drop dead ?
 
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Was it not prophetic and predictive when Pater announced that Ananias would drop dead ?
It was a word of knowledge. However, all the supernatural gifts of the Spirit are prophetic. What Peter did was to pronounce summary judgment on Ananias because the latter lied to the Holy Spirit. Paul did the same to Elymas who tried to block the Roman official hearing the Gospel. The casting out of the demon from the servant girl by Paul was a combination of the word of knowledge and discerning of spirits.

The use of the gift of prophecy is forthtelling, and not foretelling. But the ministry of Prophet can include prediction such as Agabus who foretold the famine that occurred in the time of the Emperor Claudius.

I just listened to a short part of a sermon by David Wilkerson, and he was bold and loud in his trumpet call to the churches to forsake the hypocrisy and return to the Lord. That is the role of the NT Prophet. Very much like John the Baptizer. We need more Prophets like David Wilkerson to wake up our churches and challenge them of their apostacy.

But the NAR prophets that are more like psychics, and not representative of the NT Prophet. I might be controversial but I think that John the Baptizer calling the nation to repentance, is the rest example of what a NT Prophet should be in calling the worldly church to repentance.

Leonard Ravenhill also exercised the role of NT Prophet in his book Why Revival Tarries, and his preaching.

But the believer who uses the gift of prophecy is different. He is not a Prophet whose role is to call out the worldliness and hypocrisy of our apostate churches. His role is to provide edification, exhortation and comfort to genuinely converted believers who love the Lord and are walking right with Him. Paul was prophetic at times in his letters, especially in his letter to the Thessalonians where he encouraged them in the midst of persecution. Peter prophesied when he told his readers not to be surprised at the fiery trial that comes upon them as if it was something strange. As a matter of interest, Paul prophesied predictively when he told the Thessalonians about the second coming of Christ.
 
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His role is to provide edification, exhortation and comfort to genuinely converted believers who love the Lord and are walking right with Him.

I am uncomfortable with formularizing Scripture like this.

Sure a prophetic gift may bring these three, but often more as He wills.

This is a favourite claim of those who don't really believe in the gifts it seems, as these three are expressions of Love and are within the scope of all true believers.
 
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I am uncomfortable with formularizing Scripture like this.

Sure a prophetic gift may bring these three, but often more as He wills.

This is a favourite claim of those who don't really believe in the gifts it seems, as these three are expressions of Love and are within the scope of all true believers.
All I am doing is reflecting what Paul is actually saying about prophecy to the Corinthians. I am drawing a distinction between a believer prophesying in church, and a person performing the office of the Prophet. Therefore the prophecies of believers in church are totally different in nature to the ministry of Prophet. There are people who call themselves Prophets in our churches, who are not true NT Prophets, but are believers exercising the gift of prophecy. I think there is confusion about prophecy in church and the role of Prophet, through shonky teaching and individuals giving themselves titles that are not appropriate for them.

If a true NT Prophet like David Wilkerson preached to the NAR folk, or those in Kenneth Copeland's meeting, he would be accused of having a demon and forcibly ejected from the premises. The role of the NT Prophet is not a popular one among churches that have fallen from holiness and faithfulness to Christ. The role of the NT Prophet is to powerfully exhort the Christian church to toe the Gospel and holiness line. They are like John Bunyan's character in Pilgrims Progress: Mr Valiant for Truth, who carries a blood-stained sword. Jesus said He has not come to being peace on earth but a sword, and He does that through the ministry of the NT Prophet.
 
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Carl Emerson

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All I am doing is reflecting what Paul is actually saying about prophecy to the Corinthians. I am drawing a distinction between a believer prophesying in church, and a person performing the office of the Prophet. Therefore the prophecies of believers in church are totally different in nature to the ministry of Prophet. There are people who call themselves Prophets in our churches, who are not true NT Prophets, but are believers exercising the gift of prophecy. I think there is confusion about prophecy in church and the role of Prophet, through shonky teaching and individuals giving themselves titles that are not appropriate for them.

If a true NT Prophet like David Wilkerson preached to the NAR folk, or those in Kenneth Copeland's meeting, he would be accused of having a demon and forcibly ejected from the premises. The role of the NT Prophet is not a popular one among churches that have fallen from holiness and faithfulness to Christ. The role of the NT Prophet is to powerfully exhort the Christian church to toe the Gospel and holiness line. They are like John Bunyan's character in Pilgrims Progress: Mr Valiant for Truth, who carries a blood-stained sword. Jesus said He has not come to being peace on earth but a sword, and He does that through the ministry of the NT Prophet.

Yes, I see what you are trying to do...

Prophets were meant to be part of church life weren't they?

Was Agabus in a separate fellowship?

In the OT Prophets fellowshipped together.

Being a Prophet is a Church office.

This is distinct from having a gift.

One matter that could help, would be to re-instate the office of prophet as an itinerant ministry, like the evangelist.

We are Pastor and teacher heavy - how about more fathers and prophets... (real ones that is...)

I have submitted a Word to my present church which has been welcomed and appreciated.
 
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All I am doing is reflecting what Paul is actually saying about prophecy to the Corinthians. I am drawing a distinction between a believer prophesying in church, and a person performing the office of the Prophet. Therefore the prophecies of believers in church are totally different in nature to the ministry of Prophet. There are people who call themselves Prophets in our churches, who are not true NT Prophets, but are believers exercising the gift of prophecy. I think there is confusion about prophecy in church and the role of Prophet, through shonky teaching and individuals giving themselves titles that are not appropriate for them.
Congratulations Oscarr, you now understand the difference between the office and the gift. In other posts here you also now understand what constitutes prophesying in the body of Christ (edification, exhortation, and comfort).

I always thought I was trying to hammer on a brick wall with you whenever we would talk about this. It's good to see you understand it so clearly now.
 
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Therefore the Scripture fully supports the modern existence of apostles and prophets, and we have to pick the meat from the bones as we consider how the NAR people apply those ministries. The problem is that the First Century believers knew exactly how the Prophet ministry operated. Agabus certainly wasn't the only prophet operating in the NT churches. But the knowledge of how NT prophets exercised their ministry has been lost to time, and all modern proponents of the Prophet ministry have to guess on how it should work.
Nothing is lost in time with GOD. We can learn everything we need for any office or gift from The Holy Spirit, we just have to keep asking Him and waiting upon His answers..
 
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Yes, I see what you are trying to do...

Prophets were meant to be part of church life weren't they?

Was Agabus in a separate fellowship?

In the OT Prophets fellowshipped together.

Being a Prophet is a Church office.

This is distinct from having a gift.

One matter that could help, would be to re-instate the office of prophet as an itinerant ministry, like the evangelist.

We are Pastor and teacher heavy - how about more fathers and prophets... (real ones that is...)

I have submitted a Word to my present church which has been welcomed and appreciated.
The office of Prophet is one that is in the style of John the Baptiser. He called the Jews to repentance. He was the last Prophet to Israel. But this doesn't mean that the NT Prophets who came after him were any different, except their role was to call the church to repentance, and their ministry was especially important in the face of emerging heresies that were coming into the church.

But the ones who prophesy according to Paul's teaching to the Corinthians do not have the office of Prophet. Their style of prophecy is totally different. I think there has been a serious misunderstand about the office of the Prophet and made it an extension of those who prophesied in the church fellowship.

As I keep saying, David Wilkerson's style is more like the role of NT Prophet, which doesn't come under the definition of 1 Corinthians 14. The prophetic in the local church comes more under the pastoral role. Therefore I would call them pastoral prophecies. The NT Prophet is too confronting against hypocrisy and sin in the church to be pastoral. He is not there to be encouraging and comforting. His ministry is to bring discomfort to those who are hypocrites in the churches. David Wilkerson's preaching is not pleasant to listen to. It brings conviction of sin and demands righteousness and warns of judgment to come.

The NAR "prophets" and people like them are no more NT Prophets than my Burmese cat.

A pastoral prophetic ministry can be itinerate, but it is still pastoral.
 
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Congratulations Oscarr, you now understand the difference between the office and the gift. In other posts here you also now understand what constitutes prophesying in the body of Christ (edification, exhortation, and comfort).

I always thought I was trying to hammer on a brick wall with you whenever we would talk about this. It's good to see you understand it so clearly now.
I was prayerfully meditating on the prophetic and was wondering what the difference between prophecy according to Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 14, and the office of Prophet as part of the five fold ministry. It is when I listened to a David Wilkerson message that it came clearly to me - he's a NT Prophet who is following in the steps of John the Baptiser, except that instead of calling the Jews to repentance, he is calling the church to repentance. Then I knew that the office of NT Prophet has not ceased, but has continued to this present day, but not in the way that the NAR describe it. The NAR "prophets" are pastoral prophets defined in 1 Corinthians 14, but they have gone into error by giving themselves the label of NT Prophets while not fulfilling the role of challenging the church over its sin and hypocrisy and calling for repentance.

When Leonard Ravenhill wrote "Why Revival Tarries" he was acting in the office of NT Prophet. I think that it takes resilience, courage, and holy boldness to be a NT Prophet, because he has to put up with opposition, hatred and persecution from those who don't want to hear his message.
 
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