FreeGrace2
Senior Veteran
- Nov 15, 2012
- 20,401
- 1,730
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Constitution
Is that what you think 2:18 means???? All you've done is repeat what you think 2:14 says.
Please try again.
Upvote
0
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Is that what you think 2:18 means???? All you've done is repeat what you think 2:14 says.It means that faith with out fruit doesn't save.
Is that what you think 2:18 means???? All you've done is repeat what you think 2:14 says.
Please try again.
One cannot demonstrate their faith apart from deeds. It has nothing to do with a "real saving faith" vs a false non-saving faith.
No, you didn't. All you did was give your opinion of what 2:14 meant, and imputed it to 2:18. How many more verses in chapter 2 mean the exact same thing as 2:14? All of them?Why do you keep asking? I told you what it means.
The error is that v.18 says something quite different than v.14. They ARE separate. They don't say the same thing. v.18 illustrates what James meant in v.14.If you don't want it repeated then stop asking and move on. I refuse to separate vs 18 from vs 14 - and I don't believe that is how James intended it to be read.
Correct. I'm always amazed by the view of RT regarding James.This is Calvinist/RT speak. There is nothing in the NT that speaks of a non-saving faith. You either have faith or you don't. Jesus did NOT say, "Your real saving faith has saved you", He said, "Your FAITH has saved you"! It is not spoken of in any other sense than real.
Why in the world do you think that I don't believe that true believers can walk or fall away?? Of course they can. But, where is the support for the notion that they lose salvation?
The problem is that you equate "fall away" with loss of salvation. Which is wrong.
Consider Luke 8:13. Jesus said, "they belived for a while, and in time of testing fell away". He was describing their loss of faith, NOT their loss of salvation. There is NO reason to equate "fall away" with loss of salvation.
Falling away from the faith is to quit believing.
That's where we disagree. When a believer leaves the faith, they have fallen away from the faith. What do they lose? God's blessings for time and reward in eternity. They lose fellowship, which John emphasized in 1 Jn 1.Hence my query. The context of "falling away" is from that salvation, otherwise there is nothing else to FALL AWAY from.
Yes exactly. They believe then fall away from belief, which means they no longer have salvation or the faith needed for salvation.[/QUOET]
This is an assumption, not fact. The initial believing results in their salvation. Do you have a passage or verse that teaches that ongoing faith is required for salvation? Or that a temporary belief will not result in salvation? I'd love to see any.
Of course it does. Every time. And once saved, God keeps us saved, whether we fall away from the faith or not.If you accept what Paul teaches in Rom 10:8-13, then belief results in salvation.
As requested, I find no verses to support the idea that salvation requires ongoing faith. Yes, I'm aware of the present tense, but there are many verses where the aorist tense is used, which removes any concept of time.
So, unless there are verses that clearly spell out that salvation requires ongoing faith, I cannot believe it.
If salvation can be lost, why no verses that actually say that?
If it can be lost, why no verses that say our new birth has died?
If it can be lost, why no verses that remove our justification?
If it can be lost, why all the promises of God to keep us, esp when there are verses in those contexts that limits salvation to ONLY those who keep believing?
No, you didn't. All you did was give your opinion of what 2:14 meant, and imputed it to 2:18. How many more verses in chapter 2 mean the exact same thing as 2:14? All of them?
error? Hardly. Those verses compliment each other - demonstrating fruitless faith doesn't save. I think your view is a deadly one to have.The error is that v.18 says something quite different than v.14. They ARE separate. They don't say the same thing. v.18 illustrates what James meant in v.14.
Again, the point of v.18 is that the ONLY way to demonstrate one's faith is by deeds that others can see.
Also, v.15-16 gives an example of a believer who doesn't demonstrate his faith by his failure of deeds when the opportunity arises.
That's where we disagree. When a believer leaves the faith, they have fallen away from the faith. What do they lose? God's blessings for time and reward in eternity. They lose fellowship, which John emphasized in 1 Jn 1.
Falling away refers only to falling away from the faith or from belief. It cannot refer to salvation. The context does not support that at all. That is simply being read into the text.
This is an assumption, not fact. The initial believing results in their salvation. Do you have a passage or verse that teaches that ongoing faith is required for salvation? Or that a temporary belief will not result in salvation? I'd love to see any.
Of course it does. Every time. And once saved, God keeps us saved, whether we fall away from the faith or not.
As requested, I find no verses to support the idea that salvation requires ongoing faith. Yes, I'm aware of the present tense, but there are many verses where the aorist tense is used, which removes any concept of time.
So, unless there are verses that clearly spell out that salvation requires ongoing faith, I cannot believe it.
If salvation can be lost, why no verses that actually say that?
If it can be lost, why no verses that say our new birth has died?
If it can be lost, why no verses that remove our justification?
If it can be lost, why all the promises of God to keep us, esp when there are verses in those contexts that limits salvation to ONLY those who keep believing?
Yet, this was my question:No - it wasn't an opinion at all. Vs 14 is pretty specific
v.18 isn't about getting or being saved. It's about HOW a saved one demonstrates their faith to others. With deeds. Very straightforward.error? Hardly. Those verses compliment each other - demonstrating fruitless faith doesn't save. I think your view is a deadly one to have.
No. It's a demonstration of one's "real faith" in action. James' point.It's more than just a demonstration. It is real faith in action. That's the point of the text. Your view crumbles under vs 14.
So you believe that your faith saves you. I don't. I believe that God saves the believer. Very different. 1 Cor 1:21 supports my view easily.I know where we disagree, but the point is that faith saves us so lack of faith is what's causes us to no longer be saved. It's a pretty simple equation.
Yes, God promises to save those who believe. Where is the verse that takes away salvation if one should stop believing?You reap what you sow.
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
Yeah, I know. You think your faith saves you. Or that God ONLY saves those who continue to believe. If that were true, I would expect there to be a number of very clearly stated verses about having to continue in the faith in order to continue to be saved. Yet, there aren't any.If you stop believing you don't have salvation.
Wow. The same defense as Calvinists use for limited atonement. Which is why I'm also not one of their ilk.This is what happens when you are prone to being word-centric instead of seeing what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches the Trinity yet NEVER uses the word. The Bible teaches we lose salvation, but does not say it in those exact terms.
Why were the Jews "cut off" in that context? Unbelief. I understand that you view being "cut off" as being unsaved, but I don't. Consider that the Jewish age had been set aside for the Gentiles. If Gentiles fail to live the life of faith for accomplishing God's will in the world, God may set them aside as He did Jews.Romans 11:22
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Fight is all you want, but if you are cut off, you are NOT or no longer saved.
The subject of Hebrews is reward, not salvation. I'm fully aware that the word is used in Hebrews, but the promised land does not represent heaven. While God promised it to the Jews, they had to earn it by working hard to conquer it. That is not grace, but works.Which is of course the subject of the OP and which you have NOT corroborated. Denying as much doesn't mean you have.
Hebrews 2:2-3
For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.
Calvinists say the same thing about opponents of limited atonement.Well the problem with seeing is have the eyes to see. If you don't really look or don't want to accept what is in plain site then of course you won't see it. It is a proven psychological fact, not just a spiritual one.
The meaning of destruction in Jude is divine discipline leading to physical death, which we see in 1 Cor 10 and 11:30, and spoken of by John in 1 Jn 5:16.There are many examples in the one chapter of Jude alone that addressed maintaining our faith in lieu of destruction.
Worrying has no value whatsoever. God's promises are to those who have believed, even in the aorist tense.God's promises to keep us are for those that worry He will, not for those who walk away.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?