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I believe EXACTLY what Dr Steve posted, which was my point.That's not my point - and nothing in the post you quoted disagrees with what you said. My point is that real faith doesn't result in an apathetic life free of good fruit. Our friend FG seems to think differently.
Glad you agree with my view of Luke 8:13. Not sure what you are asking about reconciling OSAS. Could you be more specific, please?OSAS is ONCE saved, ALWAYS saved. Some call it eternal security. How do you reconcile OSAS with this POV? I agree with your view of Luke 8:13
First, Paul is addressing Rom 8:34-39 to believers, and the text is clear that nothing can separate us (believers) from God's love. And nothing in the present or future will change that.Sorry I don't see OSAS here except in an eisegetical manner. God even loves those that go to hell and these scenarios do not have to do with OUR choice to walk away or fall into apostasy.
I must disagree. There sure are some forces outside of ourselves, but "things present and things future" aren't "forces outside of ourselves". Those specifically speak about anything in the present or future, which cannot separate us from God's love.The context is about forces OUTSIDE of ourselves.
Yes, believers do fall back. But not from God's hand of salvation (Jn 10).It says nothing about our free will choices, and would be contradictory to passages in Hebrews 6 and 10 that show people do fall/shrink back.
What I posted isn't contradictory to Scripture.The Bible is NOT contradictory so you have to find the proper context here in Romans 8.
Sorry, but I disagree. Paul notes the lifestyle of unbelievers and equates that with being asleep, as opposed to being alert.1 Thess 5 is about the day of Jesus' return. Verses 1-11 is a metaphorical analogy of that day. Paul dealt with the status of dead/sleeping believers already in chapter 4. It's not about life STYLE, it is about life STATUS/PURPOSE. Some believers obviously will be alive when Jesus returns, and some will be dead or as the Bible likes to euphemistically refer to them as 'sleeping'.
can faith - which has not been demonstrated - justify someone?What does your sentence mean? It doesn't make sense. Typo, maybe?
how do you know that such faith is real?Because without demonstrating one's faith, no one else can see it, and such faith that has no deeds is barren, dead, unfruitful.
Let me ask you this: How can anyone call a faith "dead" if it first wasn't alive?
Relative to what, exactly? What is my bold assertion?
John 10:27-29The Presbyterian Confession of Faith states: They whom God hath accepted in his beloved, effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved. In other words, this theory teaches that a child of God cannot so sin as to fall from the grace of God and be lost in eternity. Sometimes referred to as once in grace, always in grace or once saved, always saved, this doctrine was formulated as a result of Calvinisms Predestination. If God elected certain individuals to be saved, His will cannot be overturned or upset by any man (not even the elected); hence, these people must be saved and can do nothing to change the situation.
I would like scripture from ALL, to either refute or support this statement. Please show in your title if you are PRO (accept this statement) or CON (reject this statement)
Can we please try to keep this civil.
I believe EXACTLY what Dr Steve posted, which was my point.
Regarding a real faith and apathy, that was exactly James' emphasis. Those who are saved MUST demonstrate their faith so others can see it.
The notion that he was distinguishing a so-called true faith from a so-called false faith is, well, just false.
Glad you agree with my view of Luke 8:13. Not sure what you are asking about reconciling OSAS. Could you be more specific, please?
First, Paul is addressing Rom 8:34-39 to believers, and the text is clear that nothing can separate us (believers) from God's love. And nothing in the present or future will change that.
I must disagree. There sure are some forces outside of ourselves, but "things present and things future" aren't "forces outside of ourselves". Those specifically speak about anything in the present or future, which cannot separate us from God's love.
Yes, believers do fall back. But not from God's hand of salvation (Jn 10).
What I posted isn't contradictory to Scripture.
Sorry, but I disagree. Paul notes the lifestyle of unbelievers and equates that with being asleep, as opposed to being alert.
1 Thess 5:3-10
3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.
Note these phrases:
"let us (believers) not sleep as others (unbelievers) do"
"sleep at night, get drunk at night" refers to lifestyle
"let us (believers) be sober, put on the breastplate…helmet" reference to lifestyle.
"whether we (believers) awake or asleep" means regardless of lifestyle
"we (believers) will live together with Him" is a guarantee that all believers will live together with Christ.
Absolutely. God does not have to see one's faith demonstrated before He saves them. Man, otoh, needs to see one's faith before the professing believer will be justified in the eyes of others.can faith - which has not been demonstrated - justify someone?
Whatever people believe in is real to them. Not sure what point you are trying to make. Are you trying to make a point about real vs false faith? Good luck with that. The Bible makes no such point.how do you know that such faith is real?
Because of 2:26. A faith that is dead had to first be alive. When you die, can we consider your corpse to be fake or false??Yes - but how do you know he isn't using "dead" to be descriptive of a faith that isn't real or is false?
When one isn't demonstrating their faith, James calls that faith "dead", or barren. Look up the Greek word for "dead". James used both 'necros' and argon' for "dead".Correct me if I am wrong here - but you seem to be promoting the idea that it is possible to have "dead faith" and still be saved. I find that to be a bold assertion.
Nope. I'm saying that those believers who aren't demonstrating their faith are unproductive or barren (argon). No one else can see their faith.So maybe we agree on this. Are you saying that those who do not demonstrate faith aren't saved?
John 10:27-29
Jesus used the aorist tense of "believe" in Luke 8:12, and the present tense of "believe" in v.13, yet He added "for a while" after it.Because OSAS is not "believed for a while", and for those that do not fall away it is a promise WITH certainty or guarantee but not as the acronym conveys. Calvin also thought infant baptism was OSAS, which of course it is not.
I disagree.Yes it is, and the context is external forces separating us when we don't want to, NOT our choosing to walk away.
Neither the present nor future can or will separate believers from the love of God. That covers a lot of ground.Yes, THINGS, not OUR WILL. V31 starts with the question and moves from there. The context of verses 32-35 is pretty clear...WHO?
v39; "...nor any other created thing...". Paul was trying to comfort those who were concerned about the conflict of our sin nature he was teaching about in Rom 7.
Jesus used the aorist tense of "believe" in Luke 8:12, and the present tense of "believe" in v.13, yet He added "for a while" after it.
I disagree.
Neither the present nor future can or will separate believers from the love of God. That covers a lot of ground.
Absolutely. God does not have to see one's faith demonstrated before He saves them. Man, otoh, needs to see one's faith before the professing believer will be justified in the eyes of others.
Whatever people believe in is real to them. Not sure what point you are trying to make. Are you trying to make a point about real vs false faith? Good luck with that. The Bible makes no such point.
Saving faith (faith that saves) is believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (jn 20:31), who gives eternal life to all who believe in Him for it (Jn 6:40,47, 11:25-27).
Anything else that people believe isn't saving faith. Anything ELSE that people think is saving faith is a false faith. And it doesn't save.
Because of 2:26. A faith that is dead had to first be alive. When you die, can we consider your corpse to be fake or false??
When one isn't demonstrating their faith, James calls that faith "dead", or barren. Look up the Greek word for "dead". James used both 'necros' and argon' for "dead".
Well, we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. There is nothing to limit what Paul wrote to conclude that our wills aren't included in the phrase "things present and things to come". He already covered everything else outside of ourselves. It wouldn't be necessary to mention the present and future if that was his point.Yes but NOT our will. To God our will is sacrosanct in that it is what motivate us to believe and obey, for the same reasons He made Adam and Eve.
I have been. Very focused on what he wrote.Let's stay focused on what James is talking about.
The issue is that he was NOT talking about some so-called false faith.Why would he even bring this up if he is not talking about real faith vs dead faith?
I have been. Very focused on what he wrote.
The issue is that he was NOT talking about some so-called false faith.
When a believer demonstrates his faith to others, his faith is vibrant and alive.
But, when a believer behaves like the example of 2:15,16, his faith is dead and barren, not producing fruit.
That is what James was concerned about. Believers demonstrating their faith to others.
2:18 clearly indicates this.
The best question is being saved from what? It's a huge mistake to default to eternal salvation whenever one encounters the Greek word "sozo". It's basic meaning is deliverance or rescue. The question is what kind of deliverance or rescue did James have in mind.Why does James ask if such faith can save in vs14 then?
Well, we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
I did deal with your view of Rom 8:38,39. There is nothing there to preclude our own wills from separating ourselves from the love of God.
and I've provided scriptures that do. If you don't deal with them as such don't expect to have the scriptures you provide dealt with either.
I did deal with your view of Rom 8:38,39. There is nothing there to preclude our own wills from separating ourselves from the love of God.
The best question is being saved from what? It's a huge mistake to default to eternal salvation whenever one encounters the Greek word "sozo". It's basic meaning is deliverance or rescue. The question is what kind of deliverance or rescue did James have in mind.
He used the word 5 times in his epistle; and none of them refer to eternal salvation. Here are the verses. They speak for themselves:
1:21
2:14
4:12
5:15
5:20
Here are 2 more quite obvious verses in which "sozo" cannot refer to eternal salvation:
Acts 27:20,31
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