What is Jesus Saving us from ?

[honey badger]

1 Cor 2 2 For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Share Jesus crucified and resurracted. It is what the apostles shared.

i am ... seeing this other gospel is mans perception of the gospel by way of their own measured reasoning ... as in our own reasoning by way of two fruits of a tree crucifies the Truth/Christ ...

 

[Newway]

to understand what we are being saved from you will first need to cast aside all the theologies and doctrines of men you presently hold to ...

If you mean like have to not think and reason like a human? It is hard to make sense of it from a human standpoint, certainly. I think it is more accepting that it’s “just that way.” The concept of he’ll never sits well or makes sense to me, but that’s the way it is, I’m assuming anyways.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Something I’ve been confused about, it seems Jesus is here to save us from God? He is the only one who can send ppl to hell. I don’t get it. Or is it the devil? But God can control the devil? Help me make sense of this. Please.

He's saving us from our stupidity and mortality.

 

[honey badger]

If you mean like have to not think and reason like a human? It is hard to make sense of it from a human standpoint, certainly. I think it is more accepting that it’s “just that way.” The concept of he’ll never sits well or makes sense to me, but that’s the way it is, I’m assuming anyways.

yes ... our natural/carnal mind can not understand the things of God ... for reason it measures everything ... and this measurement held to becomes a lie ...

however in spite of this we also have the mind of Christ ...

 

[ViaCrucis]

So hell is not real ?

It can be helpful to take a step back and approach subjects from a different angle.

A common narrative about hell is that hell is a place where God sends unbelievers to suffer for all eternity.

The problem with talking about hell is that, when we do a deep dive into Scripture there actually isn't all that much in the Bible about it. It may seem like there is, but really there just isn't that much. And the topic of hell has a lot more nuance.

Allow me to present a different narrative about hell:

Hell is what happens when people choose to be so fully consumed by their self-centered passions that they cut themselves off from the life-giving goodness of God in a tragically final way.

Imagine, for a moment, a person who hates others. That hate might begin small, but as they are consumed by it, it eats, gnaws, consumes. It festers and grows. We can see this even here in this life, where people consumed by their hate become unable to listen to reason, who respond to compassion with anger and vitriol. It's like their humanity itself is being eroded away by their own hate. What happens if that just continues? What happens if, even in bodily death, that person continues but so does all that hate that has consumed them? What kind of miserable existence is that? It's so miserable and so awful that it can barely be called living, it's even quite arguably something worse than death. Neither really alive, nor completely dead, everything good and lovely about being human, about bearing God's likeness, being so thoroughly eroded away, eaten away, that there is just, as it where, a spiteful hate that just hums on like a machine.

This is actually the way a lot of theologians over the centuries have understood hell.

God doesn't send us to hell. Rather, without God's grace nipping it in the bud, all this sin and wretchedness we carry within ourselves will, in a sense, become hell.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Newway]

I hope that is the case, the concept of never enduring torture is absolutely terrifying and doesn’t line up with a loving god.

 

[honey badger]

I hope that is the case, the concept of never enduring torture is absolutely terrifying and doesn’t line up with a loving god.

a concept far removed from the truth ....

 

[anetazo]

John chapter 3 . Jesus gives people in the flesh a choice, to choose to follow Jesus or satan. Jesus will not force anyone to love Him and repent.
Proverbs 18:2. A fool hath no delight in understanding, But that his heart may discover it.
Those who are closed minded won't seek God or listen to Teacher/shepherds of God.
Its called self reliance. Thier stubborn and defiant.
18:12 = Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, And before honor is humility. Pride is downfall for many people. The only anecdote for pride is humility.
Some people don't want to make stand for Jesus. They won't repent. Jesus is the only way to kingdom of God. But some attitudes is, our way, my way. They resist God.
Proverbs 19:20. Hear counsel, and receive instruction, that thou may be wise in the latter end.
God gives diversity of gifts and abilities to shepherds/teachers/pastors, ephesians chapter 3. They have big responsibility to nourish and lead people. Very few have holy spirit.
Selfishness is another Factor. Some people dont want to be bothered with studying the bible and sharing Gods truth with lost souls.
It's pride, to not care about person headed for hell, get the picture.
Jesus is looking for people willing to study the bible and have working knowledge of Gods word. To plant seeds for God.
19:25. Smite a SCORNOR, and the simple will Beware: And reprove one that hath understanding, and he will understand knowledge. In other words. When outsiders seek to convert to christianity. It's the responsibility of the priests/pastors/Teachers, to teach them. Shepherds are to edify the body of christ.
EMUNAH in Hebrew means = Faith, stability, truth.
CHAKMOTH in Hebrew = every wise woman, wisdom.
YAAL in Hebrew means = foolish.
THEOSTUGES in Greek means = hater of God.
ALAZONEIA in Greek means = Pride.
CHAKAM in Hebrew means = teach wisdom.
SKLEROTES in Greek means = Stubborn.
PSEUDADELPHOS in Greek means = false brethren.
CHANAK in Hebrew means = Discipline, train up.
James chapter 1 . All wisdom and knowledge comes from God. Repent sins to God and be forgiven. Pray to God and ask Him for wisdom and knowledge.
God will help you understand.
Jesus needs Christian people who will study the bible and share God's truth with others. Remember, many people are lost and headed for sheol. It's holding place for the spirtualty dead or wicked.
Discipline is also studying the bible and obedience to God.
I hope this helps. Take care.

 

[Newway]

John chapter 3 . Jesus gives people in the flesh a choice, to choose to follow Jesus or satan. Jesus will not force anyone to love Him and repent.
Proverbs 18:2. A fool hath no delight in understanding, But that his heart may discover it.
Those who are closed minded won't seek God or listen to Teacher/shepherds of God.
Its called self reliance. Thier stubborn and defiant.
18:12 = Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, And before honor is humility. Pride is downfall for many people. The only anecdote for pride is humility.
Some people don't want to make stand for Jesus. They won't repent. Jesus is the only way to kingdom of God. But some attitudes is, our way, my way. They resist God.
Proverbs 19:20. Hear counsel, and receive instruction, that thou may be wise in the latter end.
God gives diversity of gifts and abilities to shepherds/teachers/pastors, ephesians chapter 3. They have big responsibility to nourish and lead people. Very few have holy spirit.
Selfishness is another Factor. Some people dont want to be bothered with studying the bible and sharing Gods truth with lost souls.
It's pride, to not care about person headed for hell, get the picture.
Jesus is looking for people willing to study the bible and have working knowledge of Gods word. To plant seeds for God.
19:25. Smite a SCORNOR, and the simple will Beware: And reprove one that hath understanding, and he will understand knowledge. In other words. When outsiders seek to convert to christianity. It's the responsibility of the priests/pastors/Teachers, to teach them. Shepherds are to edify the body of christ.
EMUNAH in Hebrew means = Faith, stability, truth.
CHAKMOTH in Hebrew = every wise woman, wisdom.
YAAL in Hebrew means = foolish.
THEOSTUGES in Greek means = hater of God.
ALAZONEIA in Greek means = Pride.
CHAKAM in Hebrew means = teach wisdom.
SKLEROTES in Greek means = Stubborn.
PSEUDADELPHOS in Greek means = false brethren.
CHANAK in Hebrew means = Discipline, train up.
James chapter 1 . All wisdom and knowledge comes from God. Repent sins to God and be forgiven. Pray to God and ask Him for wisdom and knowledge.
God will help you understand.
Jesus needs Christian people who will study the bible and share God's truth with others. Remember, many people are lost and headed for sheol. It's holding place for the spirtualty dead or wicked.
Discipline is also studying the bible and obedience to God.
I hope this helps. Take care.

So you believe the hell of eternal torment is real ?

 

[nightmares]

So you believe the hell of eternal torment is real ?

He probably does, given the ridiculous idea that being stuck in this pathetic circle of life is a choice between Jesus and Satan

 

[Dave G.]

So you believe the hell of eternal torment is real ?

Even some who think they are Christians don't make it into heaven, and we all come face to face with Jesus Christ:

Matthew 7:21-23​

New King James Version​

I Never Knew You​

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Additionally Satan already tossed into the lake of fire gets company, and his followers are all tossed into the lake of fire, which burns forever and ever. All whose names are not found in the book of life. This is the great white throne judgement:

Rev. 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev. 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
Rev. 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Rev. 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev. 20:15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.​

​

 

[honey badger]

He probably does, given the ridiculous idea that being stuck in this pathetic circle of life is a choice between Jesus and

Even some who think they are Christians don't make it into heaven, and we all come face to face with Jesus Christ:

Matthew 7:21-23​

New King James Version​

I Never Knew You​

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Additionally Satan already tossed into the lake of fire gets company, and his followers are all tossed into the lake of fire, which burns forever and ever. All whose names are not found in the book of life. This is the great white throne judgement:

Rev. 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.​

Rev. 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.​

Rev. 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.​

Rev. 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.​

Rev. 20:15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.​

​

the one that is lost, never was ...

 

[Dave G.]

the one that is lost, never was ...

Or you could say they went out from us but were never of us, 1 John 2:19

As to the entire thread, the topic confronts God's sovereignty and places certain individuals within the thread as their own gods.. Lucifer tried the same thing. He didn't make out so well.

 

[honey badger]

Or you could say they went out from us but were never of us, 1 John 2:19

As to the entire thread, the topic confronts God's sovereignty and places certain individuals within the thread as their own gods.. Lucifer tried the same thing. He didn't make out so well.

i was not speaking to those who have yet to see, seeing once you see there is no turning from it, but speaking to the one who is lost was the one who never was ... as in a perception afforded to us by our flesh, who Jesus said was a husband not our own as in an old man we put off etc

.

 

[Newway]

Or you could say they went out from us but were never of us, 1 John 2:19

As to the entire thread, the topic confronts God's sovereignty and places certain individuals within the thread as their own gods.. Lucifer tried the same thing. He didn't make out so well.

Even some who think they are Christians don't make it into heaven, and we all come face to face with Jesus Christ:

Matthew 7:21-23​

New King James Version​

I Never Knew You​

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Additionally Satan already tossed into the lake of fire gets company, and his followers are all tossed into the lake of fire, which burns forever and ever. All whose names are not found in the book of life. This is the great white throne judgement:

Rev. 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.​

Rev. 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.​

Rev. 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.​

Rev. 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.​

Rev. 20:15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.​

​

I thought it was Satan and his Angels that are put into the Lake of Fire? I personally don’t want to believe that eternal torment is real, but am open to changing my mind on the topic.

 

[Hawkins]

Is obey or die a loving relationship

You may have missed the big picture.

Adam and Eve (first lineage of humans) fell due to lack of 1) obedience and 2) faith in God and His Word.

Law is a measurement of obedience. The Judgment of Law will be carried out objectively on one's behavior in past. Law deals objectively, that is under valid witnessing, but only 1) the past, and 2) one's behavior. Humans as a whole, due mainly to the influence from the fallen angels (i.e., the effect from the snake to Adam and Eve) failed the test. As a result, no human can enter the Final Heaven (i.e., New Heaven and New Earth) by means of the Judgment of Law which is an evaluation of one's obedience. Either humans as a whole shall be destroyed by a flood, or God needs to provide an alternative to redeem humankind. Needless to say, through the self-sacrifice of Jesus Christ at a certain point of humanity, a series of Covenants are granted by God for the salvation of humankind.

Ultimately, the New Covenant is a measurement of one's faith. Both obedience and faith are the fundamental elements for entities to live in an eternity with a sin-incompatible God. Humans failed the test of obedience while the New Covenant is a test of faith. The purpose is to identify those who can live with such a sin-incompatible God in eternity. That is, it serves as an open standard for the identifying of the righteous/God's sheep/God's Elect.

Faith cannot be judged objectively the same as in the case of Law. The Judgment of Covenant is a subjective judgment from a fair and just God who is Jesus Christ. Only God can judge heart and faith precisely and justly, while the judgment is not limited to one's behavior and one's past.

 

[Hawkins]

And what exactly is the point of God creating us if we have to obey or die. Does God want scared people who have no free will

And I did not reject God, I reject this unworkable idea that if we don't do what he says, even once, we are dead

And also what is the point of God creating us only to tell us what to do. He'd be better off doing it himself

God's goal is to build an eternity we call Heaven where angels and humans live with a sin-incompatible God happily forever.

God thus sets up Law followed by a so-called Final Judgment to qualify who shall enter this Heaven. Humans have no hope to enter this Heaven by means of such a Judgment of Law due mainly to the the influence from the much more capable and intelligent (fallen) angels. They need to be saved alternatively through the self-sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

We are with the wrong assumption that this universe is the nature. This universe is not nature, it's God-made instead. True nature shall be filled with fire and energy. So if one is not with God in a forever happy Heaven, he winds up back to the nature. It actually goes like this, you either end up with God or you do not. If you don't end up with God, you are in a "society" without God's influence at all.

In such a wilderness-like "society" the most powerful and the most evil will rule at the end. It happens that Satan is the one. Satan on the other hand, has all the will and all the ability to turn everyone into an evil sinning machine. Satan becomes the god of everyone not with God. This world with Satan as god will wind up into the nature of energy and fire, as out of capability of this god to counter the force of the true nature. Satan can't build anything to save you from the damage true nature can do.

That being said. Don't trust your own intelligence and "logic" and such, as you can't counter Satan in the respect. Satan will fool you into fallacious reasoning. You need faith, for the sake of saving yourself from the possible havoc.

 

[Dave G.]

I thought it was Satan and his Angels that are put into the Lake of Fire? I personally don’t want to believe that eternal torment is real, but am open to changing my mind on the topic.

Scripture speaks for itself. You must be reborn of the Spirit, otherwise known as born again. Then Jesus' atonement for sin is credited to your account. Without Him you will be judged purely by the Moral Law, which no one can satisfy but Jesus already did. He is our provision given to us by a loving Father. Jesus is the propitiation for our sin, He paid the price for us that we could in no way pay. Propitiation is to pay forward for our sins. Romans 3:23-24 and other places in the bible.

God is sovereign, He is the creator and has all power over all things. Man revolted, not so different than Satan and thus without Christ are like Satan till or unless the rebirth. Once accepting Christ from the heart, changing direction repenting from sin, documents are changed in heaven and you are written into the Lambs Book of Life. With your name found there you are not tossed into the lake of fire. It's not wise to face God with rebellion, it's called tempting Him. You're messing with someone so powerful there is nothing more powerful, so powerful He can speak and has spoken things into and or out of existence. Yet He loves us enough to send His own Son to the cross to die for our sins that we might be saved.

It takes faith to trust and believe what is written. But faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God,in Romans 10:17.
.

 

[nightmares]

God's goal is to build an eternity we call Heaven where angels and humans live with a sin-incompatible God happily forever.

God thus sets up Law followed by a so-called Final Judgment to qualify who shall enter this Heaven. Humans have no hope to enter this Heaven by means of such a Judgment of Law due mainly to the the influence from the much more capable and intelligent (fallen) angels. They need to be saved alternatively through the self-sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

We are with the wrong assumption that this universe is the nature. This universe is not nature, it's God-made instead. True nature shall be filled with fire and energy. So if one is not with God in a forever happy Heaven, he winds up back to the nature. It actually goes like this, you either end up with God or you do not. If you don't end up with God, you are in a "society" without God's influence at all.

In such a wilderness-like "society" the most powerful and the most evil will rule at the end. It happens that Satan is the one. Satan on the other hand, has all the will and all the ability to turn everyone into an evil sinning machine. Satan becomes the god of everyone not with God. This world with Satan as god will wind up into the nature of energy and fire, as out of capability of this god to counter the force of the true nature. Satan can't build anything to save you from the damage true nature can do.

That being said. Don't trust your own intelligence and "logic" and such, as you can't counter Satan in the respect. Satan will fool you into fallacious reasoning. You need faith, for the sake of saving yourself from the possible havoc.

How about not creating Satan in the first place and thus sparing billions, including Jesus, pain and death

 

[nightmares]

Scripture speaks for itself. You must be reborn of the Spirit, otherwise known as born again. Then Jesus' atonement for sin is credited to your account. Without Him you will be judged purely by the Moral Law, which no one can satisfy but Jesus already did. He is our provision given to us by a loving Father. Jesus is the propitiation for our sin, He paid the price for us that we could in no way pay. Propitiation is to pay forward for our sins. Romans 3:23-24 and other places in the bible.

God is sovereign, He is the creator and has all power over all things. Man revolted, not so different than Satan and thus without Christ are like Satan till or unless the rebirth. Once accepting Christ from the heart, changing direction repenting from sin, documents are changed in heaven and you are written into the Lambs Book of Life. With your name found there you are not tossed into the lake of fire. It's not wise to face God with rebellion, it's called tempting Him. You're messing with someone so powerful there is nothing more powerful, so powerful He can speak and has spoken things into and or out of existence. Yet He loves us enough to send His own Son to the cross to die for our sins that we might be saved.

It takes faith to trust and believe what is written. But faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God,in Romans 10:17.
.

Alternatively one can say that God/Jesus knew Satan would turn evil and entrap Adam/Eve and allowed it to happen because, er, we have not been told