What is "hell"?

[angelmom01]

First I want to apologize for not being as clear in my previous post as I would have liked. Just off of work and getting the kids ready for church while typing it up left it less than desirable. Hopefully this post will be a little more clear.

No problem; I didn’t find it unclear or incoherent or anything like that.

About the blessed are the dead passage in Rev 14. This was in relation to 14:9-11 showing that it was in fact quite easy to show both the language of an end judgment here as well as maintain the phrase written after it saying blessed are the dead who from now on die in the Lord. They are not contrary to each other as I assumed was your argument in post #61. Btw thank you for fleshing out your post with your views. Just posting scriptures for the most part in #61 left me to try and follow your thoughts on my own the best I could. If you just give a verse four people can say amen, yet mean four different things.

This is true, but to be honest I’d rather not comment too much and give "my own” opinion. I'd rather let the scriptures speak for themselves, as much as possible. That may mean that others won’t see the same connections that I do and so have no clue what I am trying to say, but that is ok with me. I am happy to elaborate later if I can or answer whatever questions may pop up. I just don’t like to “go in” saying “this is what this means”. I much more prefer to show the “connections” and “patterns” themselves. Then others are free to take it or leave it based on what "they" see (or don't).

About the shortly coming to pass. You wrote, "Those things were to shortly come to pass. Are those who read the book 2000(+/-) years ago still 'waiting' for those things to come to pass? How do they shortly come to pass for those of us who are reading the book now, 2000 (+/-) years later?". I would say in the same manner that our Lord promised he was coming quickly (Rev 3:11 22:7, 12, 20).

Amen!! But “how” does he come quickly?

Also look at Matt 24:22-28 2 Pet 3:3-13 (where it speaks of scoffers saying where is the promise of his coming) and Zeph 1:14-18 (where Zeph prophesized about the final judgment quickly coming as well).

Amen again!! Why is it, do you think, that they “scoff”? How do you see “the day of the Lord”?

Now the angels and the harvest.
As I said before, we do sow and reap as we are sent out into the harvest of God (more on this later in the post). That is how disciples are made. So there are lots of harvests in relation to individual believers sharing the gospel. But all of these are part of the harvest of God (as I said more on this part of it later on, for now the focus is on method).
But what you responded with missed the point, but as I noted earlier it was my fault for not fleshing my view out. Your method is to note that in verse A angels are the harvesters. In verse B you point to the fact that ministers, such as Paul, are called angels. Now this gives you not an equivalence claim that angels doing the reaping are in fact ministers such as Paul, but gives you "it is not out of the realm of possibility" that ministers such as Paul are the ones described in the description of the harvest. Which I assume you agree with as you wrote "I have not drawn that line".

I have not drawn the line to say “angels (as spirit being) do not exist”. But I do believe that at least some of the references in Bible to “angels” (which simply means “messenger&#8221 refer to men of God. It is clear that the book of Revelation speaks about the “angels” harvesting, right? And that Christ said that he would send “his angels” to reap at the time of harvest, right? And that he also said that the field was “white already to harvest”, right? We also know that in the book of Revelation it is “the angels” who have sickles and the vials (etc), right? And don’t we also know that:

Psa 149:5-9 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand; To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; To execute upon them the judgment written: THIS HONOUR HAVE ALL HIS SAINTS. Praise ye the LORD.

Now, bring in Matt 25:31-34. Jesus is there. All the angels are with him. All the nations gathered before Jesus. And the people of the nations he separates into groups, the sheep and the goats. Now the question is "is it within the realm of possibility that ministers such as Paul are the angels that come with him?". Now because this is the judgment and we know all will stand before the judgment seat of God (Rom 14:10). We know ministers such as Paul are in the grouping of the sheep and so ministers such as Paul cannot be in the grouping of the angels.

And how do we know that? If judgment has begun (1 Pet 4:17) and in the resurrection of the dead we “are as the angels of God in heaven” (Matt 22:30, Mar 12:25)?

Now using this same method and turning to Matt 13. First, Christ's explanation in v. 37, 38. The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world. The good seed are the children of the kingdom. The weeds are the children of the evil one. The enemy which sowed the weeds is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age. The reapers are angels. So now "is it within the realm of possibility that ministers such as Paul are the angels that are reaping?". Now ministers such as Paul are children of the kingdom, which in v. 30 it is told to us that Christ is allowing them to be grown together until harvest time when the reapers collect them. So no, because they are in the group of the good seed. They are not the reapers, but those that are reaped.

AMEN!! And we know that the kingdom of God is within, right? And the wheat and the tares are growing together until harvest, right? The tares are harvested FIRST (to be burned) and the wheat is gathered to the barn. As I see it, this applies to “the fiery trial” which is to try us. The hay wood and stubble must be burned up. We are “dead” (spiritually speaking) right? And it is not until we have been “judged” that we “learn righteousness”. (Isa 26:9) We must pass FROM DEATH (darkness/NIGHT) UNTO LIFE (light/DAY), right? And “in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven”. The Sadducees (which say that there is no resurrection) tried to trap Christ by asking him about the resurrection after a carnal understanding and Christ told them “Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God”.

Now there is only one judgment and only one harvest which accomplishes this judgment.Well
Luke 10:2 we are sent out into this harvest.

John 4:36 some sow seeds of the gospel and others reap it. They make disciples, the great commission (Matt 28:19, 20) which is very different from Matt 13 which is not about making disciples, but separating those that are in Christ versus those that are not. There is only a problem if you try and equate the reaping in John 4:36 with the reaping of Matt 13. One is making disciples, the other is bringing them home.

And perhaps they are both part of the same judgment/harvest which was begun at the cross but has yet to be “complete”.

So the separation and destruction takes place in what Matt 13 describes, not John 4:36.

But, of course, you know I disagree, right?

The prince of this world is judged already (John 16:11) just as those who do not believe in Jesus are condemned already (John 3:18). But the judgment, where everyone is judged based on their deeds, has not happened yet. But yes, judgment day is already decided based on whether or not one is in Christ, as seen in Revelation by the Lamb's book of life.

Again, I do not see it the same way. Judgment has begun. The field is being harvested. The tares are being gathered to be burned and the wheat is being gathered to the barn. The sheep and the goats are already being separated. We have not yet seen the end result but these things, as I see it, are going on now. And they will continue to go on until such time as God decides to stop populating this world that we live in and He comes to gather all of those who remain, both the dead and the living.

Now John 5:25, great passage, I love it! But read on to v. 28, 29. There are two different resurrections here. One is now and the other is the end, when Christ comes again. Amen! (I'll make use of this some more later).

I thought I also quoted vs 28 and 29? They are not two different resurrections; there is ONLY ONE resurrection and HIS NAME is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is THE resurrection and THE life and no one comes to the Father but BY HIM. He is THE FIRST and THE LAST. AMEN??

Look carefully at the Martha said to Christ and how He responded to her at the resurrection of Lazarus:

John 11:23-26 Jesus saith unto her,Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her,I AM the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Does it sound to you like Christ thought that Martha understood what “the resurrection at the last day” was? Jesus Christ IS the resurrection and the life. He IS eternal life; that life is IN THE SON. We wait for his “appearing” for his “coming”, YES!! Amen!!! Christ is formed IN US so that we might have LIFE and so that “as He is so are we IN THIS WORLD”. Amen? I know that most see two resurrections separated by the millennium. I see ONE resurrection (Jesus Christ):

1Co 15:22-23 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

He comes to each of us, unto those of us who look for Him, unto those who sleep (IN THE NIGHT) so that He might give them LIFE/LIGHT and make them children OF THE DAY. He comes “without sin unto salvation”.

With the vials they are not the final judgment. And yes, you are correct Christians shall judge (1 Cor 6:2). But Christ is also the judge John 9:39 (which says he came to judge) John 5:27 Acts 10:42 17:31. Christ came to save, but also in that process God has also established the criteria for judgment (John 3:16-21). Christ's second coming will be to fulfill that criteria, the judgment. (Don't confuse the two comings of Christ, the Jews still expect a messiah, but of the second coming variety. They missed the first coming which the scriptures are quite clear on).

John 9:39 says that He came “for judgment”, not “to judge”. But I am not saying that Christ does not judge as we all must stand before the judgment seat of Christ, as you know. But it is also true that judgment has been given unto His saints. So how can both Christ AND His saints judge? In my opinion, it is because as HIS BODY (He being the head) we are JESUS CHRIST. The second man IS “the Lord from heaven”. That is the ONE NEW MAN being created by God IN CHRIST. Now, I state that as my opinion as this is not something that I have studied out, but that I am just posting sort of impromptu at the moment as I respond to this post. (so don't hold me to that one)

Yes, the wrath of God abides in the wicked. But remember, he is being patient with them for the sake of the elect (Rom 9:22, 23). John 3:36 also shows that they will not see life, but must endure God's wrath. Now if you take "not see life" as referring to the second resurrection (remembering John 5) that would be for the future. We also have Rom 2:5-10 9:22 Col 3:6 1 Thess 1:10.

Ok, I didn’t look up those verses. Sorry, I will try to do that later, but it is getting late. But as I said earlier, there in ONE resurrection, A resurrection of both the just and the unjust, JESUS CHRIST. No, not all will “see life”, many will “die in their sins”.

Christians have been baptized with the Holy Spirit and with fire. Now Paul speaks about a future burning where works not on the foundation of Christ go poof (1 Cor 3:12-15) but I think you are referring to 1 Pet 4:12. This is a fire of persecution, to test them as they share in Christ's sufferings. Definitely a sense of refining. Also notice v. 17, if judgment is to begin with the household of God, then what will be the end for those who do not obey the gospel.

AMEN!! What shall be the end of those who obey not the gospel?

Now a biggy. Those who look for him.
Here is the KJV of Heb 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Notice, if you read the whole verse he appears the second time to those that look for him unto salvation. It does not say only to those who look for him. Big difference.

So it has to have the word “only” in it for it to mean that he “only” comes unto those who look for him when the verse say that he comes “unto those who look for him”? I could argue that it doesn’t say that He “also” comes unto those who “don’t” look for Him. It also doesn’t say that he comes “to all” (whether they look for Him or not), right? Let me ask you then, who do you think salvation comes to if salvation is coming unto those that Christ comes to “the second time”? When does salvation come? And who does it come to?

Here are two other translations that may make it a little more clear.

So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. NRSV

So Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await him. NASB

The point being that with this “coming” comes “salvation” right? Does salvation also come to those who “don’t” look for Him? I do not see any difference in any of these translations, frankly. Except that I see “without sin” as “not in the flesh” (as sin dwells “in the flesh&#8221. The word is cho[FONT=&quot]̄[/FONT]ris and it means “at a space, that is, separately or apart from”. So he comes separated or apart from sin.

And if that is not enough we have verses which clearly show the second coming is not just for those who wait for him: 1 Thess 5:1-11 Zech 12:10 Matt 24:23-31

More verses to look up? I am so tired.

Ok, I looked up 1 Thess 5:1-11. Beautiful!!! A chance to demonstrate to you how I see THE DAY of the Lord. Please notice that they KNOW PERFECTLY when THAT DAY shall come.

1Th 5:1-11 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY of the Lord so cometh as a thief IN THE NIGHT. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children OF LIGHT, and the children OF THE DAY: we are not OF THE NIGHT, nor OF DARKNESS. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

I can go into more detail if you like, but can you see the contrast between THE NIGHT and THE DAY? Between those who “watch” and those who “sleep”?

Now we are born again by having Christ in us, by the Spirit. Remember John 5 and the two resurrections? The promise of eternal life is with spiritual bodies, just like Christ was raised from the dead with (Rom 6:4,5).

And we do not desire to be UNCLOTHED, but CLOTHED UPON. If this earthly tabernacle were dissolved we would see that we HAVE a house not made with hands eternal in the heavens. (2 Cor 5). That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

John 14:18-20 where the world doesn't see Christ anymore but believers will. This is about the promise of Pentecost. Go back up to v. 15 so it would be John 14:15-20 and you can relate that to the first resurrection in John 5.

I said that it had to do with Pentecost and the coming of the Holy Spirit, right? And Jesus Christ is THE resurrection, there is ONLY ONE, only THE FIRST. Blessed and holy is He that has part in THE FIRST RESURRECTION, it is by the power of HIS resurrection that we receive life and attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Col 1:27 Christ in you. See above w/ John 14:15-20 as well as Php 2:12,13 where Christians work out there own salvation in fear and trembling for it is God who is at work in them, enabling both to will and to work.

AMEN!!

About being saved, I am saved now (remember John 5). His Spirit is the first fruits, while we wait for the second coming of Christ and the redemption of our bodies (Rom 8:23).

The adoption of sons IS the redemption of the body, right? When do you think that you receive the adoption of sons?

As I see it, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise when we first believe, receiving “the earnest” (or firstfruits) of the spirit. But at that time we are “yet carnal” (1 Cor 3:3) and we must “go on unto perfection”. We must be “born again”; we must have Christ formed in us (this is how we are “delivered of the child”; remember the “woman in travail”?), we must receive the Spirit OF HIS SON whereby we cry Abba, Father. This is “the adoption of sons” and “salvation” and “the redemption of our body”.

About the like manner of his second coming with the manner of his ascension (Acts 1:9-11) it is a natural truth to use your words. Because his body, the resurrected body, the same kind which we shall have (Rom 6:4,5) is spiritual (1 Cor 15:42-46) but it can also be seen. And it can even partake of the fruit of the vine (Luke 22:18). Its going to be a great wedding feast.

yes it can be seen, it can be manifest in the flesh and appear in locked rooms, but a spiritual body is not a natural body. Christ appeared in a body of flesh to prove His resurrection. How else was He supposed to do that? He also appeared in a body of flesh to show us that he DOES have a body OF FLESH AND BONES. WE are His body, we are of his flesh and of his bones. And HE is THE BLOOD of that body, as the LIFE is IN THE BLOOD, right? Christ cannot come and dwell IN US and also maintain a body of flesh and bone somewhere else. God is SPIRIT. And if the Spirit of God dwells in us then we are “no longer in the flesh but in the spirit”.

And you may not feel that you are teaching, but we will all be held accountable for every word we type on this forum. It isn't just idle chatter. We are espousing views, teaching.

I never said that I am not accountable for my words. But I have not set myself in the position of being anyone’s “teacher” and if having a discussion about what one believes with other believers is going to bring upon us “a greater condemnation” then I suggest we ALL “shut up”.

I hope this post was a little more coherent, I still haven't slept, so I really can't tell.
Also couldn't repost what you wrote because of space limits.

I didn’t find either one incoherent, just long. I guess I can’t complain as I can post some long ones myself :o .

 

[windjammer]

Hi there ,
putting to silence the accusers huh ?
do you believe in the sin is a demon theory squint ?

if you do , you may want to reconsider your stance

to define just what sin is and just what hell is ,
may have surprising New Light to SEE coming just around the shadow of turning

we may be even able to speak with common respect and some civil discussion , granted we all seek the Truth and Gods will in these matters .......
peace .........windjammer

 

[angelmom01]

Please notice that they KNOW PERFECTLY when THAT DAY shall come.

That should read.

Please notice that they KNOW PERFECTLY how THAT DAY shall come.

 

[Fireinfolding]

That should read.

Please notice that they KNOW PERFECTLY how THAT DAY shall come.

Thats kool you bring that up...Didnt we just talk about that "how" part last night?

 

[squint]

Hi there ,
putting to silence the accusers huh ?
do you believe in the sin is a demon theory squint ?

if you do , you may want to reconsider your stance

to define just what sin is and just what hell is ,
may have surprising New Light to SEE coming just around the shadow of turning

we may be even able to speak with common respect and some civil discussion , granted we all seek the Truth and Gods will in these matters .......
peace .........windjammer

The observation is simple enough.

IF there are anti-Christ spirits (there are) that are NOT the same as mankind....

THEN any judgment pertaining to that entity class and their actions "should" logically reflect in how the scriptures regarding these matters are handled.

You can throw in all the "sin is a demon" or "six inch devil" comments you want. Fact will remain that "he who commits sin is of the devil" so obviously A CONNECTION is there. Slice that however you want.

 

[squint]

Right there is your false premise, laden with pure pressumption. You assume I see and hell and judgment according to how you just laid it out.

Not the point at all.

You just falsely accused me for doing what you have no proof of in that statement of yours. Now provide a quote (from myself) where you can point out what you clearly accuse me of doing (as it relates to "blaming" or "accusing") anyone. There isnt one in the post portion you quoted. Its of your very own invention.

Obviously you have some little private email party with yer girlfriends about the presentation and then tried to pop the "six inch demon" statement upon me.

Y'all are quite a hoot. Bet them fingers are just a rockin' behind the scenes. But I'm sure we're just gonna find a whole bunch of TYPICAL DODGING about relevant facts.

I could possibly ask you to retract all your false statements but there would be nothing left to your posts then

Let's just say if you found one you'd be all over it.

"Quote me" where I said the carrnal man has understanding or is free.

You heap heavy on the "man" in any form.

Well thats a no brainer Squint "in the flesh". The very next quote (in the post) you copy pasted from me says that very thing concerning ~NO LONGER I~. Why on earth would you feel the need to separate my sentences and ADD (what I had further clarified on)?

There is no relevance dancing around on the issue.

IF a separate entity class besides mankind is involved WITH the flesh, then "the flesh" is a dead end street to BLAME AND ACCUSE. IF there is no separate entity THEN blaming the FLESH is no different than BLAMING THE MAN....get it?

My "answering this post is ridiculous".

Render the basics then and move on. You only jumped in to save your compatriots embarrasement.

You know who you sound like?

Luke 7:33... He hath a devil

John 7:20...Thou hast a devil

John 10:20 He hath a devil

Well thank you for that!

This is all so very interesting Squint, I dont care what others teach. Though I do appreciate the history lesson on others "thangs". You still havent quoted where you insinuate I (or Angelmom) blame or accuse anyone. If you ask me its you who are doing a pretty spectacular job of it insinuating us. Angelmom demonstrated that by copy pasting you on them.

Angelmom will continue to evade the obvious because she's done this drill before AND when "orthodoxy" see's her nonsense dragged out of her doctrinal closet she will be commonly laughed out of the conversations. You heard it hear first.

How about Jesus is come in the flesh Squint? I know you see Demons come in the flesh. I "rarely" (if ever) hear you mention Jesus Christ in any of your posts.

I see "demons in the flesh?" Do you honestly not SEE that presented in scriptures? If not, welcome to the heretic club.

As to Christ, a sign of His Indwelling is TRUTH to His Words. How truthful do YOU wanna be?

Sorta like Legion and his inner freinds? Because you both appear to be cutting only yourselves Squint.

Hey, spit it out and call me a devil. That's what you are writhing to DO isn't it?

Besides, sleepwalking with a sword is just plain lack of good judgment. So spare me the heroic stuff here. I'd only advise you to stop falling on your own sword and making a complete spectacle out of yourself.

Oh, how is that exactly again? I cut most of your post as being irrelevant to the subject matter.

Yeah it certainly does, yet you appear to have no problems at all putting your own spin and filter on what she has obviously NOT SAID.

Here's news for ya again kid. Angelmom will sooner or later spit out the hairball that ONLY MANKIND are devils. But of course she will only go there in typical dodging fashion.

I dont need to create a spin or filter for her words because I know exactly what she is talking about and how she means it. I should know because she is my best freind (and freinds know each other)

Well then I'm not surprised.

You are the one without the slightest clue concerning anything so far.

Then step on the landmine and show your mutual heresy.

Just let it slip out of the side of your mouthS.

Wait, wait... cant be, if one is given a thorn in the flesh (be it a messenger from Satan) there was a favor betowed on Paul who had been given one.

Oh? Ya think that messenger was NOT Paul and NOT Paul's flesh then?

DOI!

And next time if any you bother to post, PLEASE cut to the chase...

Facts are all three of you are dodging like crazy over ONE simple observation.

IS there a separate entity class that is NOT MANKIND in any form that are ANTI-CHRIST spirits....???

IF you acknowledge THAT FACT then blaming the flesh or the carnal man or any other form of blame upon mankind will remain VOID of legitimacy, "which" things you all practice continually.

enjoy!

squint

 

[Tavita]

Facts are all three of you are dodging like crazy over ONE simple observation.

IS there a separate entity class that is NOT MANKIND in any form that are ANTI-CHRIST spirits....???

Hey squint,

I don't know where you get the idea I'm dodging your observation, I can't recall you asking me this question.

Of course there is a separate entity class of Satan and his demons, which includes all manner of different types of spirits. After all we are told that we fight not against flesh and blood... but against rulers, powers, the world forces of this darkness, and the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Anti-Christ spirit being just one of these.

These spirits may or may not be attached to our 'flesh'. But it is first and foremost our job to die 'daily' to the flesh so that these spirits have no place in us, or no place to attach to us. Being in the flesh we can open ourselves to having these spirits attach to us, but not always, there seems to be a fine line. Consider what Jesus said... "Joh 14:30 "I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;" It means Satan is not in Jesus in any form, but the reason for that is because Jesus did not operate out of His 'flesh'.. His own willful inner flesh life, not his blood and bones. If we die to the flesh daily we will increasingly find ourselves clean of any outside influences because they will find nothing to attach themselves to. Dying to the flesh is not a once only deal.. it's a 'daily' work. And I have to say again, that operating out of the flesh does not necessarily mean there ARE spirits attached. Our flesh is an evil entity of it's own and that's why God wants us to DIE to it.

It all starts in the 'flesh' and what we do with it. It's not a matter of giving all the responsibility of our evil actions, thoughts, words, and deeds to Satan and his hordes. That is just simply avoiding the responsibility and is projecting.. something that alcoholics and drug addicts do... "it's all their fault, not mine"... or, "the devil made me do it".

God deals with the flesh first. All this talk about Satan and his lot gives him more glory than he should have. 1Jn 4:4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.


Those going through God's all consuming fire will have the flesh burnt out of them and this process starts to happen to those who are Christ's now in this life. And I tell you I hope and pray all of God's people (including me) would open themselves to God's fire, so that Satan and his demons will have nothing in them, and they will be perfected and able to be used by God. Rev 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.



Tavs

PS.. just to put your paranoid thoughts about us girls talking behind your back to rest... I have never talked to Angelmom at all, even by PM, and I've talked to Fire probably once, a couple of months ago, by PM.

 

[angelmom01]

Squint,

I am going to try and make this my last post to you, so I would appreciate it if you would not bring "me" into any of your other conversations.


I don’t know what “closet” you think I am in, but I have been at this forum for a while now and it is NO SECRET that I disagree with “orthodoxy” on probably many different things.

As far as private conversations go, I DO NOT discuss what I am going to post with ANYONE prior to posting. Any SIMILARITY between my post and Fireinfolding’s arose from the fact that we have both discussed these things with you before, if not here then at KingdomTalk.

Have a great day.

 

[squint]

Hey squint,

I don't know where you get the idea I'm dodging your observation, I can't recall you asking me this question.

Of course there is a separate entity class of Satan and his demons, which includes all manner of different types of spirits.

The caveat to that observation WAS are these in NO WAY mankind, Gods offspring ALL...?

This is where the division line is questioned.

After all we are told that we fight not against flesh and blood... but against rulers, powers, the world forces of this darkness, and the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Anti-Christ spirit being just one of these.

The line question will remain.

These spirits may or may not be attached to our 'flesh'.

The "workings" observations within mankind's flesh and minds are an entirely different matter.

IF we honestly acknowledge that we ARE in fact subjected to various degrees of INFLUENCE from Anti-Christ spirits, it DOES bring a very different flavor to how we will understand the Word.

But it is first and foremost our job to die 'daily' to the flesh so that these spirits have no place in us, or no place to attach to us.

I might actually agree with you BUT the fact will remain twofold.

1-We cannot say we have NO SIN, and that is a PRESENT TENSE situation.

2-IF we say that if sin does transpire, and that it is then a cause of MANKIND, GODS OFFSPRING not "doing something" i.e. dying to the flesh, performing in whatever manner, it does equate somewhat back to BLAME upon Gods offspring, which formulas I REJECT.

When we "understand" that those things DO transpire UPON us, and that when these DO transpire they are NOT US WHATSOever as Gods offspring, a certain amount of "gain" is granted, at least as it pertains to "understanding" and perhaps other benefits as well.

Separation is Gods Gift. We are granted THAT LINE via Word, but not an ENTIRE RELEASE presently, and this is the reality of our "present situations."

Being in the flesh we can open ourselves to having these spirits attach to us, but not always, there seems to be a fine line. Consider what Jesus said... "Joh 14:30 "I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;" It means Satan is not in Jesus in any form, but the reason for that is because Jesus did not operate out of His 'flesh'.. His own willful inner flesh life, not his blood and bones. If we die to the flesh daily we will increasingly find ourselves clean of any outside influences because they will find nothing to attach themselves to.

I don't find ANY of the Apostles OR Jesus promising us SINLESSNESS as it pertains to the flesh no matter how much we perceive it's death. We remain carriers til the flesh is ACTUALLY dead. We "account" the flesh as DEAD because of what is presently IN IT and not because it is FLESH.

This may seem particular, but it does get us OFF the observation of the flesh having some mind of it's own and ONTO what the flesh including the mind is presently subject(ed) to. dig?

Dying to the flesh is not a once only deal.. it's a 'daily' work. And I have to say again, that operating out of the flesh does not necessarily mean there ARE spirits attached.

Well, you see once you step onto the ground that it is at least a POSSIBILITY, then you have opened the door to the FACT that sin does without any uncertainty DWELL in our members and that sin indwelling is NOT US, but OF THE DEVIL.

Now some will continue to blame the flesh or those who have not performed some mental dying ritual. The reality is that that dying is a present tense accounting for a future tense reality. The "body dies" because of SIN. This does NOT in any way mean that we can BLAME or ACCUSE any of mankind for NOT accounting that DYING. We account only via WORDS disclosure of this matter.

The subtleties of this matter will always be that the desire to BLAME AND ACCUSE mankind in various ways DOES creep back into the "system." Oftimes in very subtle forms...i.e. "carnal man" "Adamic nature" etc etc. These are ALL to the last bit of blame and accusations "workings of the anti-Christ spirits."

Sin is NOT COUNTED against mankind in ANY FORM and ALL MANKIND are in fact Gods offspring, and therefore presently perfect as BEING HIS and also continually BEING perfected by His Hands inspite of our present and temporal bindings that are NOT US AS HIS OFFSPRING.

You hearing this? I hope so.

You see most will bristle at the fact that if we are IN TRUTH...we cannot lay ANY stumbling stone before our fellow man....

But we CAN throw all the stones we want at THE TEMPORAL CAUSES...and that is where STONES are meant to be thrown.

Our flesh is an evil entity of it's own and that's why God wants us to DIE to it.

And THAT is gnostic baloney. You will find NOWHERE in scriptures where FLESH IS stated as being EVIL.

It is and remains what the flesh is SUBJECT TO that is the evil...

When the flesh is blamed apart from the influences of same, it is NO DIFFERENT than blaming the offspring of God because you have REMOVED the influences from VIEWING....and that is also "their works."

It all starts in the 'flesh' and what we do with it.

And that is why I'm meeting you head on in this matter. You will acknowledge that there are anti-Christ spirits. You will acknowledge that our flesh and minds ARE subject at least potentially to such things...

yet you will LAPSE into darkness when you blame YOU and what YOU do with it and THAT is where you start counting sins against YOU. A working of darkness, right there.

You cannot SHADE YOURSELF as Gods offspring as BEING the culprit without bringing blame and accusations upon yourself and your fellow man logically speaking.

It's not a matter of giving all the responsibility of our evil actions, thoughts, words, and deeds to Satan

And again you simply have a blurry line here. Who said you are giving YOUR workings as being SATAN's?

Why can't SATAN'S WORKINGS just be SATAN'S???

That is just simply avoiding the responsibility

When did YOU become "responsible" for Satan's workings???

and is projecting.. something that alcoholics and drug addicts do... "it's all their fault, not mine"... or, "the devil made me do it".

Fault will remain, an alcholic or a drug addict is a SLAVE OF SATAN'S WORKS in the flesh. This STILL in no way BLAMES THEM as Gods offspring...

I hope you arrive at this distinction and STOP blaming the "sinner" your fellow man and START seeing who is the SINNER because apart from that distinction you STILL blame Gods offspring, the ALCHOLIC or Gods offspring, the DRUG ADDICT or whatever.

Who is to say that God has not bound that particular child to carry that temporal sinner upon that flesh to JUDGMENT and WHO are you to question that CHILD OF GOD's "responsibility?" Rebuke the cause openly and SPARE THE CHILD entirely.

God deals with the flesh first. All this talk about Satan and his lot gives him more glory than he should have. 1Jn 4:4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.

Who said blaming Satan for SINS brings Satan GLORY? What kind of GLORY is that?

Those going through God's all consuming fire will have the flesh burnt out of them and this process starts to happen to those who are Christ's now in this life. And I tell you I hope and pray all of God's people (including me) would open themselves to God's fire, so that Satan and his demons will have nothing in them, and they will be perfected and able to be used by God. Rev 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.


Tavs

PS.. just to put your paranoid thoughts about us girls talking behind your back to rest... I have never talked to Angelmom at all, even by PM, and I've talked to Fire probably once, a couple of months ago, by PM.

The observation will remain and the lines drawn regardless of all the spinning. Now you know.

enjoy!

squint

 

[squint]

Squint,

I am going to try and make this my last post to you, so I would appreciate it if you would not bring "me" into any of your other conversations.


I don’t know what “closet” you think I am in, but I have been at this forum for a while now and it is NO SECRET that I disagree with “orthodoxy” on probably many different things.

As far as private conversations go, I DO NOT discuss what I am going to post with ANYONE prior to posting. Any SIMILARITY between my post and Fireinfolding’s arose from the fact that we have both discussed these things with you before, if not here then at KingdomTalk.

Have a great day.

I NEVER expected you to show up at the table of HONEST SHARING...

enjoy!

squint

 

[angelmom01]

I NEVER expected you to show up at the table of HONEST SHARING...

enjoy!

squint

I have been nothing BUT HONEST, thank you very much.

SIN dwells IN THE FLESH; it is THE LAW OF SIN (and death) that we are “in bondage to”.

I never said that there is not an evil spirit IN MAN that must (and will) be cast out.

What I am saying (if you would even bother to go read the thread that I posted a link to, since you want so badly to know what I think, so that you can “expose my heresy”) it that there are some very interesting connections between “the serpent” (that is satan, the devil), the “tongue” ((of the)) “wicked” (who have THEIR PART in the lake of fire which is THE SECOND DEATH) and the “carnal mind” and that which has “the power of death”.

ALL of these things, which pertain to THE FLESH and THE NATURAL MAN, must (and will) be destroyed.

I do not have to agree with you on when or how that happens. And you don’t have to agree with me that there is a connection between these things (clearly seen, by me, through the scriptures that I posted in the other thread).

AGAIN, that is NOT the topic of this thread so if you want to talk about that then why don’t you go start your own thread and bring it up there and stop derailing this one with your demands and accusations?

 

[squint]

SIN dwells IN THE FLESH; it is THE LAW OF SIN (and death) that we are “in bondage to”.

I never said that there is not an evil spirit IN MAN that must (and will) be cast out.

Well, that's kinda the entire point.

IF there are such activities by same and such are NOT mankind, THEN it is quite pointless to look to ANYWHERE else but THAT FACT, and IF that is a FACT then that must rightfully be rendered into any views of both JUDGMENT and HELL/Lake of Fire.

It's the NOT MANKIND portion of that observation that I seek your "clarifications" on.

enjoy!

squint

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I have been nothing BUT HONEST, thank you very much.

SIN dwells IN THE FLESH; it is THE LAW OF SIN (and death) that we are “in bondage to”.

Indeed you are Spiritually honest. I am still working on the Covenantle "Law/Flesh vs "Grace/Spirit" of Luke 16. ZOWIE!!!!

http://www.apuritansmind.com/ChristianWalk/HateChrist.htm

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said: "Father Abraham! be you merciful to-me! and send Lazarus!, that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,--that I am being pained in the flame/flogi", this.

http://foru.ms/t4437955-lazarus-and-the-rich-man.html

 

[Fireinfolding]

Not the point at all.

Yes it was the point Squint, it was a false premise you wanted me to answer to (your own) and it was FALSE (again)

Your just trying to (as you say) "spin off point" GET REAL

Obviously you have some little private email party with yer girlfriends about the presentation and then tried to pop the "six inch demon" statement upon me.

Well me and Angelmom actually have phonecall parties, e-mails IM's and forum get togethers all the time, your problem meddling into our matters?

A busy body into others matters is spoken of in scripture

And no the accusation for "presentation" over such ridiculous things (concerning you) is not our high priority trust me...In insinuating that you only seek to flatter yourself Squint.

I'm sure it had nothing to do with being a member of the same board as you for a couple of years

Me and Angelmom were on this thread long before you got here dont forget.

Y'all are quite a hoot.

Well thanks we try Its better then being a pain in the butt

Bet them fingers are just a rockin' behind the scenes.

Into a big ol' bag of doritos, want some?

My fingers are rocking (if you want to call hunt/pecking that) on the keyboard now.

But I'm sure we're just gonna find a whole bunch of TYPICAL DODGING about relevant facts.

Waiting on you to PRESENT ANY FACTS appears to be waiting IN VAIN Dodging the facts has been very typical here thus far WITH YOU Squint LOL

Let's just say if you found one you'd be all over it.

We already adressed where you falsely accused and we called you on it directly. We were "all over that" I am still waiting for an honest one from you. In otherwords we are not your pursuer but you are ours and yet you have failed to produce ONE to legitimately expose.

WE ARE the ones STILL WAITING!!

You heap heavy on the "man" in any form.

Failure to quote again, as usual... false, false, false...Tisk tisk tisk...

There is no relevance dancing around on the issue.

If you remove the LOG in your eye its actually you doing all the dancing with your imaginary accusations and insinuations

IF a separate entity class besides mankind is involved WITH the flesh, then "the flesh" is a dead end street to BLAME AND ACCUSE. IF there is no separate entity THEN blaming the FLESH is no different than BLAMING THE MAN....get it?

So you appear to be indicating that destroying the flesh (or blaming the flesh) as you cannot quote us on is as equal with destroying the person?

1Cr 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, thatthe spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


The spirit is not THE FLESH and the one this one is delivered unto IS Satan FOR the destruction of the flesh.

Render the basics then and move on. You only jumped in to save your compatriots embarrasement.

I think you only add to your own embarrasment, I see nothing she would have to be embarrassed about.

Well thank you for that!

Your surely welcome

Angelmom will continue to evade the obvious because she's done this drill before AND when "orthodoxy" see's her nonsense dragged out of her doctrinal closet she will be commonly laughed out of the conversations. You heard it hear first.

Oh yes, when one wants to go from the presense of certain men (you do not perceive the lips of knowledge) or peaceable ways theres a "stamping of the feet" in the one rejected.

I see "demons in the flesh?" Do you honestly not SEE that presented in scriptures? If not, welcome to the heretic club.

LOL I most certainly do, our old conversation shows the truth of that very plainly but not the way you go on about it. If I referred you to the link I openly posted (for ya) I'll be charged with "obscurity" again so I wont.

As to Christ, a sign of His Indwelling is TRUTH to His Words. How truthful do YOU wanna be?

It must be because I keep quoting Harry Potter when Im talking to you...?

Hey, spit it out and call me a devil. That's what you are writhing to DO isn't it?

Mentioning Legion with his inner freinds and you with them is desiring to call you a devil?

Is that what one of your freinds (in your container) just whispered in your ear Squint?

Oh, how is that exactly again? I cut most of your post as being irrelevant to the subject matter.

LOL through most of my post you cut out because you see it irrelevant to your own hypocricies.

Here's news for ya again kid. Angelmom will sooner or later spit out the hairball that ONLY MANKIND are devils. But of course she will only go there in typical dodging fashion.

News again? As if you brought me any kind of news from the start? Your choking on a now existent hair ball Squinty, I believe you behold only "your own" dodging "in others".

"Come out of Him"!! (*hack*, *choke*, *cough*, *foam*)

Well then I'm not surprised.

Which answered to your own "adding a spin" that was non existent (and so false) AGAIN

Then step on the landmine and show your mutual heresy.

Just let it slip out of the side of your mouthS.

Now we are getting somewhere Squinty... Who does THAT remind you of?

Luke 11:53 as he said these things unto them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to urge him vehemently, and to provoke him to speak of many things

Intent?

Luke 11:54 Laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.

Sound familiar?

Prov 12:6 The words of the wicked are to lie in wait for blood

What can happen

Psalm 106:33 Because they provoked his spirit, so that he spake unadvisedly with his lips.

Psalm 39:1 I will take heed to my ways, that I sin not with my tongue: I will keep my mouth with a bridle, while the wicked is before me.

The invite to step on a landmine speaks mighty well of you Squint

Oh? Ya think that messenger was NOT Paul and NOT Paul's flesh then?

DOI!

WOW!! How interesting!! Was that **ME** that quoted that Squinty??? And you have been under the false delusion we are in denial?

You respond *DOI* and I want to say DITTO!! ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!

Were ya THINKING there was an "immaginary denial" (which again) exists in your OWN MIND? Your a RIOT! Are You are trying to get us to admit we dont believe in spirits, or devils, or "the spirit of the world" "the anti christs" or "the wrath" that abides on one (which the law worketh)?

Again (as usual) YOUR WRONG rofl!!!!!!!

*DOI* is right Squint, do you practice self humiliation for a hobby?

And next time if any you bother to post, PLEASE cut to the chase...

If I didnt have to answer all your craziness, inuendoes, and false accusations I could actually do that Squint. It appears you cause your own troubles

Facts are all three of you are dodging like crazy over ONE simple observation.

Yeah yeah... WE are the ones dodging (your imaginations) Squint

IS there a separate entity class that is NOT MANKIND in any form that are ANTI-CHRIST spirits....???

IF you acknowledge THAT FACT then blaming the flesh or the carnal man or any other form of blame upon mankind will remain VOID of legitimacy, "which" things you all practice continually.

May I borrow your words? *DOI*

The Spirit of the world exists (which WE have NOT RECEIVED)...

1Cr 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Being handed over to Satan is not the spirit being destroyed but THE FLESH and its THAT which is given to the destruction.

1Cr 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satanfor the destruction of THE FLESH, thatthe spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

HE still appears to EAT the DUST.

Still waiiting to see you VALID accusations SQUINTY. They dont exist, you keep saying we BLAME mankind but have failed to produce anything beyond your false accusations.

enjoy!

ENJOY!!

 

[Fireinfolding]

Hey squint,


PS.. just to put your paranoid thoughts about us girls talking behind your back to rest... I have never talked to Angelmom at all, even by PM, and I've talked to Fire probably once, a couple of months ago, by PM.

True, How come we dont talk more?

Being a "busy body" into other peoples matters is his problem Tavita.

So is his paranoia

 

[Fireinfolding]

I have been nothing BUT HONEST, thank you very much.

SIN dwells IN THE FLESH; it is THE LAW OF SIN (and death) that we are “in bondage to”.

I never said that there is not an evil spirit IN MAN that must (and will) be cast out.

What I am saying (if you would even bother to go read the thread that I posted a link to, since you want so badly to know what I think, so that you can “expose my heresy”) it that there are some very interesting connections between “the serpent” (that is satan, the devil), the “tongue” ((of the)) “wicked” (who have THEIR PART in the lake of fire which is THE SECOND DEATH) and the “carnal mind” and that which has “the power of death”.

ALL of these things, which pertain to THE FLESH and THE NATURAL MAN, must (and will) be destroyed.

I do not have to agree with you on when or how that happens. And you don’t have to agree with me that there is a connection between these things (clearly seen, by me, through the scriptures that I posted in the other thread).

AGAIN, that is NOT the topic of this thread so if you want to talk about that then why don’t you go start your own thread and bring it up there and stop derailing this one with your demands and accusations?

Amen sis

 

[squint]

Yes it was the point Squint, it was a false premise you wanted me to answer

What 'false premise' is that again?

Me and Angelmom were on this thread long before you got here dont forget.

whatever.

We already adressed where you falsely accused and we called you on it directly. We were "all over that" I am still waiting for an honest one from you. In otherwords we are not your pursuer but you are ours and yet you have failed to produce ONE to legitimately expose.

WE ARE the ones STILL WAITING!

Waiting for what again?

If you remove the LOG in your eye its actually you doing all the dancing with your imaginary accusations and insinuations

Don't recall putting any log in mankind's eye.

So you appear to be indicating that destroying the flesh (or blaming the flesh) as you cannot quote us on is as equal with destroying the person?

I'm not familiar with all mankind, Gods offspring, as being "destroyed."

1Cr 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, thatthe spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


The spirit is not THE FLESH and the one this one is delivered unto IS Satan FOR the destruction of the flesh.

The "revolver point" is and will remain that that there are entities other than mankind that have access to flesh and mind

IF that is the case, THEN it is very likely that THOSE entities are the ones who will have all the utter destruction scriptures and ALL of mankind will go totally FREE of THEM...

Then we have a fair and mutual understanding of "hell/Lake of Fire" that not even the "eternal tormentists" of orthodoxy can find fault with...

We understand and accept those scriptures as also being fully applicable and unto THAT entity class.

LOL I most certainly do, our old conversation shows the truth of that very plainly but not the way you go on about it. If I referred you to the link I openly posted (for ya) I'll be charged with "obscurity" again so I wont.

Don't take it "personal" as Gods offspring.

Mentioning Legion with his inner freinds and you with them is desiring to call you a devil?

Is that what one of your freinds (in your container) just whispered in your ear Squint?

You saw your own quote. I welcome anyone calling "me" a devil. Quite funny.

LOL through most of my post you cut out because you see it irrelevant to your own hypocricies.

Oh? What hypocrisies are those again?



I've brought no fault to ANY of mankind in ANY form whatsoever.

Yeah yeah... WE are the ones dodging (your imaginations) Squint

Actually when we arrive at the conclusion that there is a SEPARATE ENTITY CLASS that are NOT mankind...or "flesh" or "carnal man" then we probably don't have much to bicker about.

Being handed over to Satan is not the spirit being destroyed but THE FLESH and its THAT which is given to the destruction.

1Cr 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satanfor the destruction of THE FLESH, thatthe spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Obviously "the flesh" is subject to something OTHER THAN itself. Again, that's the observation IN PLAY.

HE still appears to EAT the DUST.

Still waiiting to see you VALID accusations SQUINTY. They dont exist, you keep saying we BLAME mankind but have failed to produce anything beyond your false accusations.



ENJOY!!

The "flesh" is not Satan. The "carnal man" or any other depiction of the SLAVES are not SATAN.

Satan is Satan. His "entity class" are the ones UNTO WHOM the entirety of the DAMNATION/WRATH and ETERNAL TORMENT
scriptures are written unto. Those scriptures are FULLY applicable, ETERNAL in their intent and final in their decrees...and NONE of them are unto GODS OFFSPRING, all mankind who have EVER lived.

And that's the Good News that I'd hope we'd all come to eventual agreement upon.

enjoy!

squint

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

IF that is the case, THEN it is very likely that THOSE entities are the ones who will have all the utter destruction scriptures and ALL of mankind will go totally FREE of THEM...

That is also my view as I certainly do not agree with these guys.

http://www.apuritansmind.com/ChristianWalk/HateChrist.htm

http://www.geocities.com/mutmainaa1/belief/hell_description.html

 

[Fireinfolding]

[/size]

What 'false premise' is that again?

[/size]

whatever.



Waiting for what again?

[/size]

Don't recall putting any log in mankind's eye.

[/size]

I'm not familiar with all mankind, Gods offspring, as being "destroyed."


The "revolver point" is and will remain that that there are entities other than mankind that have access to flesh and mind

IF that is the case, THEN it is very likely that THOSE entities are the ones who will have all the utter destruction scriptures and ALL of mankind will go totally FREE of THEM...

Then we have a fair and mutual understanding of "hell/Lake of Fire" that not even the "eternal tormentists" of orthodoxy can find fault with...

We understand and accept those scriptures as also being fully applicable and unto THAT entity class.


Don't take it "personal" as Gods offspring.



You saw your own quote. I welcome anyone calling "me" a devil. Quite funny.


[/size]

Oh? What hypocrisies are those again?



I've brought no fault to ANY of mankind in ANY form whatsoever.
[/size]

Actually when we arrive at the conclusion that there is a SEPARATE ENTITY CLASS that are NOT mankind...or "flesh" or "carnal man" then we probably don't have much to bicker about.



Obviously "the flesh" is subject to something OTHER THAN itself. Again, that's the observation IN PLAY.


The "flesh" is not Satan. The "carnal man" or any other depiction of the SLAVES are not SATAN.

Satan is Satan. His "entity class" are the ones UNTO WHOM the entirety of the DAMNATION/WRATH and ETERNAL TORMENT
scriptures are written unto. Those scriptures are FULLY applicable, ETERNAL in their intent and final in their decrees...and NONE of them are unto GODS OFFSPRING, all mankind who have EVER lived.

And that's the Good News that I'd hope we'd all come to eventual agreement upon.

enjoy!

As AOL sign off says

"GOODBYE"

 

[windjammer]

The observation is simple enough.

IF there are anti-Christ spirits (there are) that are NOT the same as mankind....

THEN any judgment pertaining to that entity class and their actions "should" logically reflect in how the scriptures regarding these matters are handled.

You can throw in all the "sin is a demon" or "six inch devil" comments you want. Fact will remain that "he who commits sin is of the devil" so obviously A CONNECTION is there. Slice that however you want.

Hi Squint ,

Well first of all the spirit [wind breath movement of air ] of error is my first comment to make and yes i sure do believe that is true ,,, the whole world , this world
1Jo 3:12 Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

sin is missing the mark or share in being partakers with Christ
its a business and employment and a job if you will the sin [not a demon or devil ] but an error in judgment [trespass] against GODS WILL and siding with opposition to GODS WILL &WORD ,

this narrow path that leads to life is tight and pressed , the broad path that leads to an end [destruction ] is where many go according to the WORD OF GOD .[in the Older testament ].

this being the whole point why JESUS COME TO US ,, THAT we might be hired by Him to be about His Fathers business also Him being King or ruler leader BOSS .. master even if you will ... and those taking on the new employment become partakers in the SHARE [inheritance ] goodness and grace truth LIGHT of GODS WILL [DESIRE]
and an ability to have others join in the saving grace that Jesus Himself come to do the same[ WORK ]

a servant for hire thinking of the 3 types and the last group hired was standing idol in the market place cause no man hired them!! Jesus employed them given the same wage as all the rest whom He hires ..

...........2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient,In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

I personally believe that the ''unclean spirits''
are the same spirits that have not Jesus SPIRIT as being anti christ

also my point being that Jesus come to forgive sins [error trespass] a dark path and guilt
it seems silly to say that Jesus come to forgive [sin ,=demons]
you have a bit of confusion with that take on things dont you think ?
and what of repentance ?
whats the point of repentance , if devils are to blame ?
here is a great example to whom was JESUS SPEAKING TO ? please ask to whom did Jesus say to repent , not devils but MANKIND !!
we are not to be slaves to the lusts[desires= works]of evil
There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.




Luk 13:2And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
who will perish according to Jesus words?
if you answer this , we can go further all of us can go further
Jesus is our peace windjammer