WHAT IS HELL?

Tariki · Oct 1, 2003

Ryoko Ozaki said:
Nice statement if I do say so. I moved to Buddhism because I agree with the teachings and especially the four Noble Truths.

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Ryoko,

Yes, my own Dharma path began with the basic teachings of Theravada Buddhism..............I have many of the great Theravada Scriptures in my own collection of books. (My own favorite is the Majjhima Nikaya.) It was reading a book - "The Vision of Dharma" - by the Theravada Elder Nyanaponika Thera that finally inspired me to begin meditating and choose Buddhism as my own way. I wish you well on your own path, finding your own "dharma gate" amid the 84000....................each according to their own individuality! As the Zen master once said............."See that bamboo, how short it is...........see that bamboo, how long it is......that is their nature....."

Rae · Oct 1, 2003

Well, you can believe Hell exists all you like. I don't. It isn't "justice," it isn't right, and it doesn't make sense if you believe in a loving deity. So there.

godsprincess4eva · Oct 1, 2003

I am very curious to know how the people in this thread,who do not believe in God, credit the blessings and shortcomings of their lives. God blesses with abundance and Satan steals all which is good. Also to the people who are witches, who do you worship or answer to. Anyone who is not God that is worshipped is Satan or one of his demons.

Tariki · Oct 1, 2003

Rae said:
Well, you can believe Hell exists all you like. I don't. It isn't "justice," it isn't right, and it doesn't make sense if you believe in a loving deity. So there.

Rae,

This is not any sort of attempt to "convert" - what an obnoxious word in many ways! - you to Pure Land Buddhism. As I said a little way above, Pure Land teaching says it is not the way for all, and it would therefore falsify itself if "every knee bowed to it"!! The beauty of difference, the beauty of harmony -rather then sameness - is precious.

You raise one of the many reasons why I will not consider myself a Christian, and why the Pure Land path is my own........I see a blight in the Christian Faith that speaks of an ultimate division of those created into the lost and the saved, an eternal division. There is a Universalist trend in Christianity, yet it is weak compared to the ultimate "us" and "them" mentality of which I speak. Everything I think, live and breathe speaks to me of the ultimate unity of all things - yet not eroding the beauty of difference - and the division of the "sheep" and the "goats" is repugnet to every bone in my body. It has perhaps an existential validity, yet to project it upon Eternity is to my mind the one great failure of Christianity. The compassion of Amida is universal and has no judgement in it, it has no shadow........for me Truth can only flourish within freedom, and freedom is stifled by fear. Fear of "hellfire" can stifle the true search for truth. (A Buddhist writer, Stephen Batchelor, speaks of rejecting a "metaphysics of hope and fear" in favour of an "ethics of empathy".........good words.)

As one wag once said......there are only two kinds of people in the world. The ones who divide the world into two kinds of people and those who don't!

Thanks
Derek

jayem · Oct 1, 2003

godsprincess4eva said:
I am very curious to know how the people in this thread,who do not believe in God, credit the blessings and shortcomings of their lives. God blesses with abundance and Satan steals all which is good. .

I'm a non-believer, and I think I've been very "blessed," if you want to call it that. Mainly, in that I had loving parents who impressed upon me the importance of receiving a good education, and helped me to get it. And making generally good choices in my life. And my own hard work. I've also been fortunate to have good health and a good marriage. So--good genes, good parents, good education, good choices, and a lot of good luck. But nothing supernatural.

Isaiah 53 · Oct 1, 2003

Tariki said:
Rae,

This is not any sort of attempt to "convert" - what an obnoxious word in many ways! - you to Pure Land Buddhism. As I said a little way above, Pure Land teaching says it is not the way for all, and it would therefore falsify itself if "every knee bowed to it"!! The beauty of difference, the beauty of harmony -rather then sameness - is precious.

You raise one of the many reasons why I will not consider myself a Christian, and why the Pure Land path is my own........I see a blight in the Christian Faith that speaks of an ultimate division of those created into the lost and the saved, an eternal division. There is a Universalist trend in Christianity, yet it is weak compared to the ultimate "us" and "them" mentality of which I speak. Everything I think, live and breathe speaks to me of the ultimate unity of all things - yet not eroding the beauty of difference - and the division of the "sheep" and the "goats" is repugnet to every bone in my body. It has perhaps an existential validity, yet to project it upon Eternity is to my mind the one great failure of Christianity. The compassion of Amida is universal and has no judgement in it, it has no shadow........for me Truth can only flourish within freedom, and freedom is stifled by fear. Fear of "hellfire" can stifle the true search for truth. (A Buddhist writer, Stephen Batchelor, speaks of rejecting a "metaphysics of hope and fear" in favour of an "ethics of empathy".........good words.)

As one wag once said......there are only two kinds of people in the world. The ones who divide the world into two kinds of people and those who don't!

Thanks
Derek

Funny how Satan can deceive the best of people? The fact remains that we, humans, are not God nor can we understand the reasoning for all things. Hell was not created for man, but for Satan had his angels. God does not send us to Hell; we choose ourselves. You see God loves us so much that He gave us freewill~The ability to choose Him or not; to choose life or death.

Nowhere in the Bible are we told to follow our instinct or feelings. The enemy wants us to believe that their is no consequence for our decisons. That we can worship who and what we want as long as we dont hurt anyone we will get to our own idea of 'heaven'.

Christianity teaches the opposite. There is but one God and one way to God; Jesus Christ.

PEACE IN CHRIST!!

revolutio · Oct 1, 2003

Isaiah 53 said:
Funny how Satan can deceive the best of people?

Then how can you be certain that any of your opinions are indeed your own and not Satan's. Surely you do not have superior resilience to Satan's influences than 'the best of people.'

Isaiah 53 · Oct 1, 2003

revolutio said:
Then how can you be certain that any of your opinions are indeed your own and not Satan's. Surely you do not have superior resilience to Satan's influences than 'the best of people.'

Ahh, but I do!! Because I have Christ! My opinions come from the word of God!!

PEACE IN CHRIST!!

revolutio · Oct 1, 2003

Isaiah 53 said:
Ahh, but I do!! Because I have Christ! My opinions come from the word of God!!

PEACE IN CHRIST!!

Ah so easily you are deceived young one. Of course Satan would want you to think you possessed Christ and thus were impervious to his advances. Your mind grew lax in its security and provides an easy opening for Infernal guidance.

Isaiah 53 · Oct 1, 2003

revolutio said:
Ah so easily you are deceived young one. Of course Satan would want you to think you possessed Christ and thus were impervious to his advances. Your mind grew lax in its security and provides an easy opening for Infernal guidance.

ROFL...Right....

PEACE IN CHRIST!!

revolutio · Oct 1, 2003

Isaiah 53 said:
ROFL...Right....

PEACE IN CHRIST!!

Excellent, your denial only strengthens Satans hold by preventing you from considering you might be under his influence.

Isaiah 53 · Oct 1, 2003

revolutio said:
Excellent, your denial only strengthens Satans hold by preventing you from considering you might be under his influence.

LOL...Whatever!!!..I am not so naive in my Faith to be swayed by such nonsense.

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!

revolutio · Oct 1, 2003

Isaiah 53 said:
LOL...Whatever!!!..I am not so naive in my Faith to be swayed by such nonsense.

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!

Superb, your faith has no room for change and thus no room to correct the influences of Satan. Your self professed maturity will only strengthen your resolve and any malevolent thoughts that have been embedded within you.

Rae · Oct 1, 2003

The fact remains that we, humans, are not God nor can we understand the reasoning for all things.
--Exactly. So, as a fallible human being, you could be wrong in believing that there is a hell at all.

My opinions come from the word of God!!
--In your fallible human opinion, yes, they do.

Also to the people who are witches, who do you worship or answer to.
--Ourselves, our loved ones, society, and the Gods.

Anyone who is not God that is worshipped is Satan or one of his demons.
--You can believe that. I believe all Gods sincerely believed in are just that, Gods.

Tariki · Oct 2, 2003

Isaiah 53 said:
Funny how Satan can deceive the best of people? The fact remains that we, humans, are not God nor can we understand the reasoning for all things. Hell was not created for man, but for Satan had his angels. God does not send us to Hell; we choose ourselves. You see God loves us so much that He gave us freewill~The ability to choose Him or not; to choose life or death.

Nowhere in the Bible are we told to follow our instinct or feelings. The enemy wants us to believe that their is no consequence for our decisons. That we can worship who and what we want as long as we dont hurt anyone we will get to our own idea of 'heaven'.

Christianity teaches the opposite. There is but one God and one way to God; Jesus Christ.

PEACE IN CHRIST!!

Thanks for your response......

As a justification for hell, I do not find the free will defence very convincing. If the divine values free will why should it be given for a mere three score years and ten - if we are lucky! - and then withdrawn for all eternity? Often I have heard the words........"hell is the truth realised to late". Why should it ever be "to late" for truth in relation to an eternal spirit who inhabits eternity?

Also in Christianity, as I understand it, it is only the free choice of accepting Christ that seems to be valued. Within the Buddhist faith every choice, every thought, every act.......contributes to our karmic inheritance and will bring its consequences. It does seem to me that from the perspective of Christianity - at least in its conservative expression - such everyday choices are often seen to be without significance for those "outside of Christ" (again, from a Pure land view, no one is ever "outside" of Amida's grace and compassion)......it seems only the choice for Jesus that has significance. A human being who has not accepted Christ - or even rejected the Christian message - yet who chooses kindness rather than harshness, love more often than hate, respect for the creation rather than contempt........all such free choices seem of no consequence? Apparently such choices, being "outside of Christ" stink in God's nostrils - as the Biblical saying goes! For me, such choices ARE Christ, irrespective of any acceptance of anything, being the product of Other Power......disguised as self power!!

As far as trusting instincts and feelings, from my perspective a Christian does no more. I would also say that with a free and gradually opening mind, trusting ourselves becomes in part a development of self-judgement, a life based upon experience. Personally I have recognised many times that I have been wrong, unaware of the true reason for choices being made, not having been honest with myself...........I would have thought that any eternal spirit worthy of the name would be infusing all life and guiding it with a loving hand, working tirelessly for the welfare and salvation of all, throughout eternity.

As Taitetsu Unno says in his books "Bits of Rubble Turn into Gold".....

"Buddhism is a path of supreme optimism, for one of its basic tenets is that no human life or experience is to be wasted, abandoned, or forgotten, but all should be transformed into a source of vibrant life, deep wisdom, and compassionate living. This is the connotation of the classical statement that sums up the goal of Buddhist life:"Transform delusion into enlightenment" "

Isaiah 53 · Oct 2, 2003

Tariki said:
Thanks for your response......

As a justification for hell, I do not find the free will defence very convincing. If the divine values free will why should it be given for a mere three score years and ten - if we are lucky! - and then withdrawn for all eternity? Often I have heard the words........"hell is the truth realised to late". Why should it ever be "to late" for truth in relation to an eternal spirit who inhabits eternity?

Also in Christianity, as I understand it, it is only the free choice of accepting Christ that seems to be valued. Within the Buddhist faith every choice, every thought, every act.......contributes to our karmic inheritance and will bring its consequences. It does seem to me that from the perspective of Christianity - at least in its conservative expression - such everyday choices are often seen to be without significance for those "outside of Christ" (again, from a Pure land view, no one is ever "outside" of Amida's grace and compassion)......it seems only the choice for Jesus that has significance. A human being who has not accepted Christ - or even rejected the Christian message - yet who chooses kindness rather than harshness, love more often than hate, respect for the creation rather than contempt........all such free choices seem of no consequence? Apparently such choices, being "outside of Christ" stink in God's nostrils - as the Biblical saying goes! For me, such choices ARE Christ, irrespective of any acceptance of anything, being the product of Other Power......disguised as self power!!

As far as trusting instincts and feelings, from my perspective a Christian does no more. I would also say that with a free and gradually opening mind, trusting ourselves becomes in part a development of self-judgement, a life based upon experience. Personally I have recognised many times that I have been wrong, unaware of the true reason for choices being made, not having been honest with myself...........I would have thought that any eternal spirit worthy of the name would be infusing all life and guiding it with a loving hand, working tirelessly for the welfare and salvation of all, throughout eternity.

As Taitetsu Unno says in his books "Bits of Rubble Turn into Gold".....

"Buddhism is a path of supreme optimism, for one of its basic tenets is that no human life or experience is to be wasted, abandoned, or forgotten, but all should be transformed into a source of vibrant life, deep wisdom, and compassionate living. This is the connotation of the classical statement that sums up the goal of Buddhist life:"Transform delusion into enlightenment" "

Thank you for the kind response and well thought out answer. I will touch base with a couple of your points. Yes, it is true that the only choice that matters to a non-Christian is the one for Christ or not. If you choose no unto death, then unfortunately you must live eternally with the consequence of the choice.

But, if you choose YES, then you are given a guarantee on Eternal life!! But, the choices do not end there. A Christian is not allowed to 'shut down' and no longer be held responsible for his/her choices. In fact, choices now become even more difficult. As the Spirit begins to change you, killing the old you, and you begin life anew as a new creation, you are still faced with the same sin or not-to-sin choice as everyone else. There are times when a Christian will make the wrong choice, but now they have a means to 1. realize the mistake and 2. be forgiven.

So to say the only choice that matters is for Christ or not is an understatment. Yes, the most important decision is for Christ, but your choices will not end there. If we choose sin and refuse to repent, we are not eternally lost, but we will live without all the blessings God has intended for us.

Believe me, I wish there were no hell and that noone had to spend eternity suffering there. But the reality is that it does exist and thousands of people are sent there everyday.

JESUS LOVES YOU AS YOU ARE, BUT DOES NOT WANT YOU TO STAY THAT WAY!!!

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!

Havoc · Oct 2, 2003

Once again you have confused the word "reality" with "belief"

Tariki · Oct 2, 2003

Isaiah,
Isaiah,

It was more the idea of free will as a defence for the doctrine of hell............I was more into the implied inconsequence of the choices of non-christians in spite of the supposed "value" of free will in the eyes of the Eternal. Obviously within Christianity you have "justification" and "sanctification", and choices made after redemption indeed relate to sanctification.

And also, as Havoc so rightly says, you confuse "belief" for "reality". Even within the Christian Faith there are those who are Universalists, who would not share your own belief in Hell...........this even includes William Barclay, a translator of the NT into English, so one would have to respect his own knowledge of the word. (See his book "Testament of Faith")

Ultimately I see you as limiting "Christ" to your own definitions and experience - at least in practice. "The Lord is one, men know Him by many names"........as our friends the Hindu's say! (Apart from the word "Him", I would concur!!!.....and perhaps women would also know a few names as well.....)

"Thou art formless, your only form is our knowledge of you"

"We do not receive wisdom, we must discover it for ourselves, after a journey through the wilderness, which no one else can make for us, which no one can spare us, for our wisdom is the point of view from which we come at last to regard the world" (Marcel Proust)

Thanks
Derek

Ryoko Ozaki · Oct 2, 2003

Very true Havoc and Tariki. Isaiah, you also confuse the word "truth" with the world "belief/doctrine".

You contradict us saying that "Christianity is the only truth". However, you also say that you respect our beliefs. In other words, you are very hyppocritical and are only fooling yourself. It's best to rethink your position here and try to ditch your ego.

Ryoko Ozaki · Oct 2, 2003

(I response to Tariki's 94th post)

So far I like the meditation style of Zen the best. So as of now, Zen is my path to Dharma. However, I plan to give other sects a chance.

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