What is hell?

[Flynmonkie]

Well, that doesn't plead well for the Southern Baptist Convention, if that is the SBC you're talking about.

As it has been explained to me. The SBC has its doctrines but each individual church may do as they please, such as women in leadership roles or pastor roles. Currently there ARE SBC churches that do this. It is up to the individual church.

Holden, I realize how you are taking this because I too had this reaction until I studied it. Try to refute it with scripture.. I ended up seeing this perspective and I don't see it being so out there it would deem someone not a "Christian" I am extremely faithful, I pray a lot, I study a lot.. I have enough faith to say that I don't know for sure, and I don't really care -- I don't think this is the point.

It is true, no question in my mind, eternal life can only be offered through Christ’s blood. I do not believe, based on the character study of God amongst other things, which God will infuse some sort of life "eternal" to torment eternally. Do I believe in a Hell? Yes. But I am not so sure it is what is readily preached in a box.

 

[holdon]

As it has been explained to me. The SBC has its doctrines but each individual church may do as they please, such as women in leadership roles or pastor roles. Currently there ARE SBC churches that do this. It is up to the individual church.

Yes, I know. (this morning I heard the pastor say in a SBC church that the covenants are always eternal, contrary to Heb 8:13. Which goes to show that you have to judge for yourself even what is taught in a good SBC church!)

Holden, I realize how you are taking this because I too had this reaction until I studied it. Try to refute it with scripture.. I ended up seeing this perspective and I don't see it being so out there it would deem someone not a "Christian" I am extremely faithful, I pray a lot, I study a lot.. I have enough faith to say that I don't know for sure, and I don't really care -- I don't think this is the point.

It is true, no question in my mind, eternal life can only be offered through Christ’s blood. I do not believe, based on the character study of God amongst other things, which God will infuse some sort of life "eternal" to torment eternally. Do I believe in a Hell? Yes. But I am not so sure it is what is readily preached in a box.

Well, I could refute it with Scripture, but this forum does not allow us to discuss universalism or annihilationism here.
We do see the rich man in hades after death. Luke 16 So, the unbeliever does not cease to exist, once he dies. Even if taken as an allegory, it is an example of reality.

I have posted some links earlier for instance in post #33 of this thread.

Here are some more:
http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/mackintosh/Bk6/ETERPUNI.html
http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/darby/DOCTRINE/10021E.html
http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/kelly/7subjcts/cox.html
http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/kelly/7subjcts/soul_not.html

 

[Flynmonkie]

Yes, I know. (this morning I heard the pastor say in a SBC church that the covenants are always eternal, contrary to Heb 8:13. Which goes to show that you have to judge for yourself even what is taught in a good SBC church!)
Well, I could refute it with Scripture, but this forum does not allow us to discuss universalism or annihilationism here.
We do see the rich man in hades after death. Luke 16 So, the unbeliever does not cease to exist, once he dies. Even if taken as an allegory, it is an example of reality.

I have posted some links earlier for instance in post #33 of this thread.

Here are some more:
http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/mackintosh/Bk6/ETERPUNI.html
http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/darby/DOCTRINE/10021E.html
http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/kelly/7subjcts/cox.html
http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/kelly/7subjcts/soul_not.html

Holden, Thanks! I am swamped right now but we could take this to a PM at a later date? You know I hardly ever sit on the opposite side of the fence of you on anything it seems. Honestly, once I had this explained to me I realized does this make one less of a Christian? The answer is no and I refuse to argue about it... there are healthy debates on both sides. I simply don't care. I do enjoy discussions! However, what I do care about is watching another Christian be belittled because of this.. I also dislike the muzzling (or not) that is going on about this. We should be allowed to discuss (iron sharpening iron) because that is the point of fellowship and discussion. Unfortunately, I believe these rules were brought about because there are some that equate the study of Eschatology = if a person is saved or not. There is no equation! If I am right, or you are right it means nothing to us because it does not apply to us. I feel it gives a firmer understanding to Gods character, others feel the same in another direction (at least this is where I am on the whole thing). But it certainly gives no one the right to question anothers salvation in the process.

 

[holdon]

Holden, Thanks! I am swamped right now but we could take this to a PM at a later date?

Well, I don't like to use the PM thing. (I call it the Pharisee Mode; because the Pharisees were always discussing their Opponent behind the scenes!)

Did you read the links I posted? That should give you plenty of material.

 

[Flynmonkie]

Well, I don't like to use the PM thing. (I call it the Pharisee Mode; because the Pharisees were always discussing their Opponent behind the scenes!)

Did you read the links I posted? That should give you plenty of material.

I thought you were concerned about discussion on the board. No, honestly I have other matters that need attention, but I will return to this when I can focus on only this and answer it. I don't much care for the PM system either, but have yet to nickname it!

 

[HypoTypoSis]

If God only has immortality as you say He does, then the saved don't have immortality either...., and angels are then mortal too. Contrary to Luke 20:36.
So "God only has immortality" means that He has only of Himself indepently, not that He cannot give it to His creatures.
Also, the term "mortal" always applies to the body, not to the soul. So, that even those who have eternal life, still can die as we all know.

My o my what a convoluted mess of thinking!

It is obvious you've not been reading either your bible or the posts herein.

I didn't say it, God said it...read...scratch that...STUDY your bible!

1 Timothy 6:13-16, "I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."

God only has immortality

Genesis 2:7, "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and MAN became A living SOUL."

Man IS A soul, he does NOT HAVE A soul.

 

[HypoTypoSis]

1 Corinthians 15:45, "And so it is written,

• The first man Adam was made A living SOUL;
• the LAST ADAM was made A quickening SPIRIT."

• MAN IS A SOUL, he does not "have" a soul.
• LAST ADAM A SPIRIT, he does not "have" a spirit.

Now, either those people that maintain

• man "has" a soul and
• the saved in Christ "have" a spirit

• without realizing it have followed the Universalists' lie
• or else God is lying.

So, which is it? What say ye?


(Personally, I say God is right)

 

[CooL_Genesis]

Likewise, I believe God is right when He says eternal!

It's amazing to me how you will literally believe one thing in the Bible, but choose not to believe the things that are mentioned as eternal and everlasting, like life and judgement.

Matthew 8:22
But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Do you think Jesus was talking about someone physically dead burying someone physically dead? Or do you think he may have been talking about people that are spiritually dead burying the spiritually dead? It's not difficult to let the scriptures interpret themselves.

It occured to me last night that regardless of how much "schooling" or "Theology 101" or whatever Bible training someone has had... if you add to or take away from scripture, you're treading on dangerous territory. You're in essence throwing a curtain of doubt around the light of the word of the living God. None of us were there when ANY of this was written in the Bible... none of us. What someone can refute with the books and theologies of man, I can easily do the same with the written Word of God.

We walk by faith, not by sight! I don't claim to have the answer, I claim that scripture does... I claim that the Holy Spirit reveals the truth of the Lord's words! I don't need any other source for my guidance on these matters... just Him! I walk by faith! Now if He points me to an outside source, so be it... but the word of God wasn't meant to be deceptive and cause us to even doubt the very words that are there! Why would the Lord or the Holy Spirit keep "believers" in such a state of confusion? The answer is simple, They wouldn't. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Now, as to the original post... there is a lake of fire spoken of in Revelations and Isaiah that states specifically that all those who are not saved by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ will be cast there with the Devil and his angels and be tormented forever. Because I believe, literally, what the Bible states in these very clear verses, and there are dozens of them that talk about eternal punishment, and because I will not take away or add to the word of God, which I did not write and am blessed to have received, I would have to say and believe that the punishment mentioned in the Bible is very real and very eternal.

However, the way of truth will keep you from this. I pray that the Lord Jesus Christ is the path you have chosen. May the Lord bless and keep you.

-Genesis

 

[holdon]

• MAN IS A SOUL, he does not "have" a soul.

Read all the verses in the bible that have "his soul". Like:
10:3 § For the wicked boasteth of his soul's desire, and he blesseth the covetous; he contemneth Jehovah. 11:5 § Jehovah trieth the righteous one; but the wicked, and him that loveth violence, his soul hateth.

• LAST ADAM A SPIRIT, he does not "have" a spirit.

When therefore Jesus had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished; and having bowed his head, he delivered up his spirit.

 

[HypoTypoSis]

Quote:
Originally Posted by HypoTypoSis

• MAN IS A SOUL, he does not "have" a soul.

Read all the verses in the bible that have "his soul". Like:
10:3 § For the wicked boasteth of his soul's desire, and he blesseth the covetous; he contemneth Jehovah. 11:5 § Jehovah trieth the righteous one; but the wicked, and him that loveth violence, his soul hateth. Quote:

• LAST ADAM A SPIRIT, he does not "have" a spirit.

When therefore Jesus had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished; and having bowed his head, he delivered up his spirit.

Sheesh, these verbatim KJV-only-ites sure do themselves a miscarriage of justice in not studying and getting slighted on the Spirit's deeper truths God has to offer through His Word!

Ever heard of "Figures of Speech"? Better look into it, the Holy Spirit uses them to INTENSIFY what He is trying to say.

"...his soul's desire" = his heart's desire--remember when God said man was evil from the heart?

"Jesus' Spirit"--was it His own, God's breath (spirit) of life or the Holy Spirit? Did all three 'gave up" or only one and, if so, which one and if only one why not the other two and what became of them?

C'mon, in addition to study (NOT passive reading!) God also gave a brain to think with, not get hung up and stalled out at Calvinite et al road blocks.

In any event, are you calling God a liar when He said:

The first man Adam was made A living SOUL;
the LAST ADAM was made A quickening SPIRIT."


? ? ?


And when He said:


1 Timothy 6:13-16, "I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."


Was God lying or are you just ignoring this because it doesn't conform to your wannabe Universalist notions?

God only has immortality

What about this one?

Genesis 2:7, "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and MAN became A living SOUL."

Man IS A soul, he does NOT HAVE A soul.


You passed over ignoring those verses so fast you must either not have an answer for them or you do not believe them.

Which is it?


It would be nice if you would stop ignoring scripture and address the issues instead of trying to set infantile baiting traps.


If you don't believe those 3 verses preferring, instead to believe man is immortal "you are a Universalist and should not be posting in this forum. I'm surprised the mods haven't said something to you about this already" (See Post #56) .

 

[HypoTypoSis]

I believe, literally

Still ignoring the issue and verses currently tabled in typical KJV-Only-Ite fashion. Please address them directly:

1 Corinthians 15:45, "And so it is written,

• The first man Adam was made A living SOUL;
• the LAST ADAM was made A quickening SPIRIT."

• MAN IS A SOUL, he does not "have" a soul.
• LAST ADAM A SPIRIT, he does not "have" a spirit.

Now, either those people that maintain

• man "has" a soul and
• the saved in Christ "have" a spirit

• without realizing it have followed the Universalists' lie
• or else God is lying.

So, which is it? What say ye?


(Personally, I say God is right)

Is God lying in the above verses are or you unable or unwilling to discuss them? Either way, it sounds like a lot of pride getting in between you and God and if that be the case He is not teaching you anything, indeed, He cannot, for your pride is blocking Him which means you have stalled out in your own self-willed pursuit of knowledge. Spiritual things can never be understood by mortal man for they must be spiritually discerned. If you were of spiritual age and maturity you would not be ignoring and passing over these things but, instead, would be spiritually delving into and eagerly searching the scriptures and heartily desiring to discuss them to their fullest. Think about it!

 

[holdon]

Sheesh, these verbatim KJV-only-ites sure do themselves a miscarriage of justice in not studying and getting slighted on the Spirit's deeper truths God has to offer through His Word!

Ever heard of "Figures of Speech"? Better look into it, the Holy Spirit uses them to INTENSIFY what He is trying to say.

"...his soul's desire" = his heart's desire--remember when God said man was evil from the heart?

"Jesus' Spirit"--was it His own, God's breath (spirit) of life or the Holy Spirit? Did all three 'gave up" or only one and, if so, which one and if only one why not the other two and what became of them?

C'mon, in addition to study (NOT passive reading!) God also gave a brain to think with, not get hung up and stalled out at Calvinite et al road blocks.

Wow. I give simple bible verses to disprove your contention, and see how upset you become!

In any event, are you calling God a liar when He said:

The first man Adam was made A living SOUL;
the LAST ADAM was made A quickening SPIRIT."


? ? ?

Where did I call God a liar. You're losing all respect here.

And when He said:


1 Timothy 6:13-16, "I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."

God only has immortality? Angels don't die either. Luke 20:36. So?

Was God lying or are you just ignoring this because it doesn't conform to your wannabe Universalist notions?

God only has immortality

What about this one?

Genesis 2:7, "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and MAN became A living SOUL."

Man IS A soul, he does NOT HAVE A soul.

I think you're wrong:

Mt 10:28 be not afraid of those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul; but fear rather him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

You passed over ignoring those verses so fast you must either not have an answer for them or you do not believe them.

Which is it?


It would be nice if you would stop ignoring scripture and address the issues instead of trying to set infantile baiting traps.


If you don't believe those 3 verses preferring, instead to believe man is immortal "you are a Universalist and should not be posting in this forum. I'm surprised the mods haven't said something to you about this already" (See Post #56) .

I think I have unmasked you already as an annihiliationist. Is that why you're so angry?

 

[mont974x4]

we do not cease to exist. Therefore, we are immortal. We do have two options:
1. believe in Him and have eternal life in Heaven
2. reject Him and suffer eternal damnation

 

[HypoTypoSis]

we do not cease to exist. Therefore, we are immortal. We do have two options:
1. believe in Him and have eternal life in Heaven
2. reject Him and suffer eternal damnation

If we already have immortal life then we don't need Jesus Christ to give us what we already have.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

He came for NO other reason than to give immortal life.

John 10:10 ...I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Without Jesus Christ and the eternal immortal life He offers what have we? According to the scriptures we have nada, nothing:

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun."



If "for ever" in the verse above means endlessly and eternally throughout this creation and the next creation (as some here erroneously believe) then they have no portion in "any thing" after death in this creation or the next creation be it heaven or hell since "any thing" means "any thing" and "for ever" means ever and ever and eternal without end.

You can't have your cake and eat it, too!

 

[HypoTypoSis]

The scriptures plainly state that ONLY God is immortal & man IS a soul:


Genesis 2:7, "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and MAN became A living SOUL."


1 Corinthians 15:45, "And so it is written,

• The first man Adam was made A living SOUL;
• the LAST ADAM was made A quickening SPIRIT."

1 Timothy 6:13-16, "I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."

 

[mont974x4]

I'm sorry but your narrow view would negate the biblical principle of eternal damnation and ultimately cheapen the eternal life with Him of believers.

I would guess that this all hinges on our understanding of life, death, and immortality.


I will post the Strong's definitions of each shortly.

 

[mont974x4]

life

G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

death

used both figuratively and literally


immortal

G862
ἄφθαρτος
aphthartos
af'-thar-tos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of G5351; undecaying (in essence or continuance): - not (in-, un-) corruptible, immortal.


We are not immortal in this sense, since we are dieing a physical death and our physical body will rot in the ground.

At this physical death we will experience that quickening and go to Heaven...seperated from our body until Christ returns for final judgment and our new immortal body will be raised.

As to hell and non-beleivers...there is nothing that indicates that when they are dead, physically, they are spared eternity. The Bible is quite clear that when they are judged they will suffer eternal damnation.

 

[CooL_Genesis]

I would be happy to discuss most anything with anyone. You, not I, have stalled this post. I haven't been calling you names or saying that your bible study is not up to par. I've simply said that I walk by faith and the Holy Spirit's guidance discerning the Word of God. These two things, the Bible's Word of Truth and the conviction that there is indeed an eternal punishment has led me to post the things in which I have on this subject. You seem to be telling me to ignore the Holy Spirit and pretend the Bible doesn't say or mean what it very well does...

You're trying to disprove God's eternal ability to judge someone and you haven't been convincing in any of your arguments. Mainly, because you choose the way of slanderous remarks instead of any form of teaching or conviction. Why do you presume to believe that I only use the KJV version of the Bible? I believe in an earlier post of mine I used the same verse for well over 10 different translations.

I guess what I'm getting at is, unless you have some form of divine inspiration to share above and beyond your belittling comments about my study life, you've completely lost my attention and respect for your posts concerning the Holy Word of God.

Now, this all being said... if I just sounded a little harsh, forgive me but it's how I honestly feel about your posts. Maybe... just maybe... the pride lies elsewhere. I don't see the pride involved in believing what the Holy Spirit reveals to me in God's written Word. If it's prideful to believe and stand by faith on the very words that God has placed on my heart... then why read the Bible at all? If we can't believe what's in there and stand with authority... why read it?

-Genesis

 

[HypoTypoSis]

I'm sorry but your narrow view would negate the biblical principle of eternal damnation and ultimately cheapen the eternal life with Him of believers.

I would guess that this all hinges on our understanding of life, death, and immortality.


I will post the Strong's definitions of each shortly.

Like others, you throw up "buts" ignoring the verses (which is narrow mindedness) posted instead of facing them square on. Please address the verses I've posted and discuss them and not look for contradictions in scripture.

I agree, as with others here, your understanding of life, death and immortality is spiritually immature. In time, with God's grace and your increasing submissive attitude to His will, word and ways you will grow and mature in His wisdom He awaits to give you.

None start out their spiritual life knowing it all from the very beginning. Only the pridefully arrogant would assume so. So give it time, submissiveness and an earnest desire to follow the truth wherever it leads especially if that means going against what you've heard before was so for to not do so is to not be submissive to His will.

Forget Strong's, everyone has the free edition in all their free PC bibles these days and it settles nothing. All it does is give you all the definitions in all the usages but does not account for each individual usage nor does it account for the nuances in grammar, figures of speech, customs or traditions of the times nor does it relate to the context in which each passage the word is used in.

Strong's is ONLY the beginning point of our study, not the definitive end-all conclusion in all matters. To stop at Strong's is to passively read and we not instructed to "read" the scriptures but to "study" the scriptures so we won't be ashamed before God for our shallow reading and understanding of His word:

2 Timothy 2:15, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

 

[HypoTypoSis]

I would be happy to discuss most anything with anyone.

Then, please, address the verses I've posted below.

You're trying to disprove God's eternal ability to judge someone

Not at all; in fact, it is the other way around, you are trying to prove that your view is the correct view even if that means it is not God's view, you are trying to sustain what you previously thought so, not trying to allow the Spirit to teach you new and deeper truths.

Do you deny this? Or do you claim you have an open mind and a submissive will to that of God desires, will, wishes and wants?

Let me ask you one thing:

Are you willing to follow the truth wherever it may lead even and especially if that means going against everything you've ever believed to be so?


The scriptures plainly state that ONLY God is immortal & man IS a soul:


Genesis 2:7, "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and MAN became A living SOUL."


1 Corinthians 15:45, "And so it is written,

• The first man Adam was made A living SOUL;
• the LAST ADAM was made A quickening SPIRIT."

1 Timothy 6:13-16, "I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."

If we already have immortal life then we don't need Jesus Christ to give us what we already have.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

He came for NO other reason than to give immortal life.

John 10:10 ...I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Without Jesus Christ and the eternal immortal life He offers what have we? According to the scriptures we have nada, nothing:

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun."


If "for ever" in the verse above means endlessly and eternally throughout this creation and the next creation (as some here erroneously believe) then they have no portion in "any thing" after death in this creation or the next creation be it heaven or hell since "any thing" means "any thing" and "for ever" means ever and ever and eternal without end.