What is hell?

[HypoTypoSis]

Was it written by you, yourself? Are they your words, your thoughts on the matter? Can you be questioned as to certain questions and issues that are certain to arise? Can the author be likewise questioned?

NoSimilarSureNo (he's dead)

Reply: WoW! That's Great! I don't need to read some stuff written by some dead man I can't talk with--I can talk with you instead! Gee, that's fantastic! Let's not waste a second, whassay we get right to it! What are your thoughts on the following two part question:​

Scenario 1a
At the end of time of this age Satan, the beast, the false prophet, followers of the aforesaid, ​

and the unsaved and the whole of creation (heaven and earth and everything in it) shall disappear from existence:​

"...the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."​

Scenario 1b:
At the beginning of time of the new age:​

there shall be a new heaven and a new earth ​

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away..." ​

and everything in it will be perfect, sinless, without evil as " shall be created new": ​

"And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful." ​

Now, granted, man sinned and, yes, God did curse the earth, but the physical universe itself did not, indeed, cannot "sin", so why would God destroy the entire universe and the heavens, i.e. the whole of this present creation...​

1. only to preserve all of the sin, evil, rotting flesh and demonic angels for ever and ever throughout the new creation and ​
2. in a new creation where all things are created new that by the very definition of the terms excludes any and everything "old", i.e. all that "sin, evil, rotting flesh and demonic angels"? ​

You see, Holden, we have two very inextricably linked basic questions that surely have two very inextricably linked answers that are without contradiction in scripture. What, in your opinion, is the biblical "simple man's" logically simple answer? ​

These are two very reasonable and viably acceptable questions that without simple logical answers the concept of eternal torment cannot stand on its own merit nor remain within the realm of biblical inerrancy if scripture cannot readily contradict those above biblical passages thereby supporting said eternal torment.​

What makes this even more interesting is that we know beforehand that neither the scriptures nor the Holy Spirit can contradict either themselves or each other. ​

Therefore, we know in advance that if there is a contradiction, as there obviously is, then the contradiction is in our understanding of the relationship, if any, between the concept of eternal torment and the scriptures. ​

It is, indeed, wonderful that two live and serious minded individuals can speak with each other on this subject! ​

 

[CooL_Genesis]

Scripture says that the punishment will be "eternal", "everlasting", "for ever and ever"... as it does about our salvation. It's in plain black and white and plain people can read it and understand it. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear!

Destroy one context and you destroy the rest as well. Want your salvation to pass away with the new heaven and new earth?

-Genesis

 

[HypoTypoSis]

It's in plain black and white

Spoken like a true blinded by the light KJV-English-only-ite.

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

Spoken like a true blinded by the light KJV-English-only-ite.

Come on now, your above making a remark like that.

 

[CooL_Genesis]

Why yes... I am blinded by the light of truth! Thank you for pointing that out!

In peace and grace,

-Genesis

 

[CooL_Genesis]

One of the verses I posted earlier, Hebrews 6:2, uses the terminology "eternal judgement". This is what Strong's has to say about eternal...

Strong's Number: 166
Original Word: aijwvnioß (Greek)
Transliterated Word: Aionios
Phonetic Spelling: ahee-o'-nee-os

Definition (Adjective):
1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2. without beginning
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting

King James Word Usage - Total: 71
eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + (5550)&version=kjv 2, since the world began + (5550) 1, for ever 1

Now... check out how many times the word aijwvnioß is used in these 2 seperate versions. By the way, I also looked at it's meaning for all of the top translations including the NIV, ESV, NAS, NKJV, ASV, HCSB, NLT and so on and so on and they ALL mean the same thing... eternal (without end)!

KJV Verse Count
Matthew 5
Mark 3
Luke 4
John 17
Acts 2
Romans 6
2 Corinthians 3
Galatians 1
2 Thessalonians 2
1 Timothy 4
2 Timothy 2
Titus 2
Philemon 1
Hebrews 6
1 Peter 1
2 Peter 1
1 John 6
Jude 2
Revelation 1
Total= 69

NAS Verse Count
Matthew 5
Mark 3
Luke 4
John 17
Acts 2
Romans 5
2 Corinthians 3
Galatians 1
2 Thessalonians 2
1 Timothy 3
2 Timothy 2
Titus 2
Philemon 1
Hebrews 6
1 Peter 1
2 Peter 1
1 John 6
Jude 2
Revelation 1
Total= 67

All of the verses from the KJV and NAS mean exactly what the English translation signifies... eternal. Amazingly, the 5 verses below in the NAS which use the word eternal, are the exact same 5 verses in the KJV which use the word eternal (see above for word usage counts). Oh yea, and they are the same in most ALL of the known translations!

Mt 18:8
And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire.

Mt 19:16
And behold, one came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?"

Mt 19:29
And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, shall receive many times as much, and shall inherit eternal life.

Mt 25:41
Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Mt 25:46
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Let's take Mt 25:41 and compare some of the translations for how the word eternal or a similiar word (everlasting) or phrase is used.

ASV (American Standard Version)
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:

NIV (New International Version)
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

ESV (English Standard Version)
Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

NKJV (New King James Version)
Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

HCSB (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
Then He will also say to those on the left, 'Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels!

Third Millenium Bible
Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, `Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

NLT (New Living Translation)
Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, 'Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his demons!

NRSV (New Revised Standard Version)
Then he will say to those at his left hand, "You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;

NCV (New Century Version)
Then he will say to those at his left hand, "You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;

New International Reader's Version
Then he will say to those at his left hand, "You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;

Weymouth New Testament
Then will He say to those at His left, "`Begone from me, with the curse resting upon you, into the Fire of the Ages, which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels.


Just a few of the very, very many translations and all of them are saying the exact same thing. The punishment is eternal, everlasting, without end, for the Ages...

In peace and grace,

-Genesis

 

[HypoTypoSis]

One of the verses I posted earlier

CG,

Well, that's certainly quite a bit of (seriously) laudable work in beginning to research the matter (about where I was a number years ago) but certainly nowhere near the definitive end-all of the matter.

Strong's is always only the beginning in our research.

Part of the problem is that, essentially, at this point, we're using the bible to verify the bible through an understanding of what those words are in the Greek which is not the same as starting with the original and working from there. Additionally, it totally ignores a variety of grammar elements as well as the employed figures of speech. Which brings us back, again, to a crucial starting point and question:

If God had meant "hell" He would not have said "grave".

Until this is satisfactorily answered and resolved it is of no benefit to venture into successive areas that build onto this.

Now, then, is "death in the grave" everlasting and unending? To the point that everlasting to the end of this age, yes, it is because at the end of this age this age will no longer exist nor will anything else that is a part of it.

For example, smoke seemingly rises endlessly forever up into the atmosphere reaching unto the heavens--until it eventually dissipates and goes out of sight. But does it actually rise "for ever and ever" (not, "forever")?

The words used in figures of speech employed cannot - and must not - be taken on literal face (dictionary definition) value.


HypoTypoSis




(O&btw, not to detract from his most very excellent work (concordance) are you aware of what "flavor" of Christianity Strong was? It would be well worth your while to look into this. Like they say, forewarned is forearmed.

 

[CooL_Genesis]

Okey dokey...

I'm done with this thread. Like I said earlier, I stand on and understand God's Word by faith and by faith alone. The Lord tells me in His word that when He says everlasting, eternal, forever and ever... that's exactly what He means. He doesn't just say this in one verse in one context. He says this in MANY verses in a variety of contexts which other verses explain and clarify. In many, many verses of His Holy Word, He says... the judgement as well as Life, is eternal.

I will not destroy the Word of the Lord.... period. I will not justify my own interpretations... period. I will only reflect the Scriptures interpretations of themselves. If God hadn't meant for us to understand his Word in this way, He wouldn't have said it and had man write these things down they way that they were written. To say otherwise is telling everyone who believes God's word for what it says is that they are in error because the Word itself is in error... I won't go there. So, I will visit this thread no further.

May the Lord reveal Himself and His will to you in All things,

-Genesis

Oh yea, and I didn't particularly care for your personal attacks either, Sis. Very unbecoming of your "reasoning" or character.

 

[HypoTypoSis]

I will only reflect the Scriptures interpretations of themselves.

"reflect" = to the best of your understanding at that time; it does not mean that your (or my) understanding is 100% infallible, correct and complete in its understanding, only that it is our own personal understanding of the matter at that point in time and that it is always open to reevaluation and change in the future.

None can ever at any time say they know all of God's Word or will.

Now, that said, the statement still begs an answer:

If God had meant "hell" He would not have said "grave".

 

[HypoTypoSis]

Originally Posted by CooL_Genesis
One of the verses I posted earlier

CG,

Well, that's certainly quite a bit of (seriously) laudable work in beginning to research the matter (about where I was a number years ago) but certainly nowhere near the definitive end-all of the matter.

Strong's is always only the beginning in our research.

Part of the problem is that, essentially, at this point, we're using the bible to verify the bible through an understanding of what those words are in the Greek which is not the same as starting with the original and working from there. Additionally, it totally ignores a variety of grammar elements as well as the employed figures of speech. Which brings us back, again, to a crucial starting point and question:

If God had meant "hell" He would not have said "grave".

Until this is satisfactorily answered and resolved it is of no benefit to venture into successive areas that build onto this.

Now, then, is "death in the grave" everlasting and unending? To the point that everlasting to the end of this age, yes, it is because at the end of this age this age will no longer exist nor will anything else that is a part of it.

For example, smoke seemingly rises endlessly forever up into the atmosphere reaching unto the heavens--until it eventually dissipates and goes out of sight. But does it actually rise "for ever and ever" (not, "forever")?

The words used in figures of speech employed cannot - and must not - be taken on literal face (dictionary definition) value.


HypoTypoSis




(O&btw, not to detract from his most very excellent work (concordance) are you aware of what "flavor" of Christianity Strong was? It would be well worth your while to look into this. Like they say, forewarned is forearmed.

Oh yea, and I didn't particularly care for your personal attacks either

say what?


--------------------
Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

We're back, still, at a crucial starting point and statement:

If God had meant "hell" He would not have said "grave".

 

[CooL_Genesis]

Spoken like a true blinded by the light KJV-English-only-ite.

-Genesis

 

[HypoTypoSis]

Spoken like a true blinded by the light KJV-English-only-ite.

-Genesis

Apologies if you have such apparent thin skin but...

it Still sounds like a KJV-only-ite!


But let's not get rabbit trailed from the main issue and its statement that still begs an answer:

If God had meant "hell" He would not have said "grave".

 

[holdon]

If God had meant "hell" He would not have said "grave".

Two questions for you:

1. Do you believe in the annihilation of the soul for those who perish?
2. Or do you believe that all will be saved, after having undergone torment?

 

[Flynmonkie]

Two questions for you:

1. Do you believe in the annihilation of the soul for those who perish?
2. Or do you believe that all will be saved, after having undergone torment?

Well let’s see, I believe you have been given the choice of:

A.)Annihilationism

or

B.) Universalism by this boards standards..BTW if you answer these in their understanding of either of these bents of beliefs you will be considered either one, which is against the board rules, if those even exist anymore??

I believe the Bible when we are told the dead know nothing. Why? Because they are dead they will no longer be remembered.

I believe dead is eternal, meaning done deal.

I believe eternal life is only offered through salvation. Eternal life even in Hell is not really an option.

I believe in Hell - but I do not necessarily agree it is a true literal Dante’s inferno...flesh burning for ever and ever.. blah blah blah...FIre and Brimstone fear tactic of the middle ages...etc..

I have yet to see anywhere in this thread a biblical support and answer to the questions posed by scripture, so therefore my belief stands.

There are a few differences I have with Hypo, namely eternal meaning eternal.. If I am to understand correctly. I believe it means eternal. SO when you’re dead, you die eternally dead. No eternal life of death and torment.

I believe hell to be a complete separation from God and I can name many others that hold to these same beliefs within our own denomination. Billy Graham is only one of very many.

I believe as Christians we have no concern for these matters but it makes a difference if we are to attempt to understand the true character of God.

IMHCO

 

[HypoTypoSis]

Originally Posted by HypoTypoSis
If God had meant "hell" He would not have said "grave".

Two questions for you:

1. Do you believe in the annihilation of the soul
2. for those who perish?
3. Or do you believe that all will be saved,
4. after having undergone torment?

• 1. The above quoted green boldened question in statement form is considerably antecedent to considering the pros and cons of your question's implications and
• my understanding hasn't progressed enough to be able to definitively say one way or the other on that; that's something to be considered further down the road, however, I am not beyond considering all possibilities.
• 2. The very definition of the word defies the concept of eternal torment.
• 3. Unlike
  • the Pagan religions,
  • the Universalists and their off-shoots,
  • the Catholics, and
  • humanists
  • and others
• that believe the soul (i.e. man) is immortal and who must believe such in order for their belief to have, to them, any substance I am certainly not in that boat.
• No,
  • I do not believe that all will be saved
  • nor do I believe there are any that died unsaved that will eventually be saved.
• My salvation does not hinge on what happens to the unsaved.
• Although, I will say there does, possibly, appear to be scriptural evidence* that it is within God's purview to save whom He will even though they may never have known His Son, Jesus Christ.
• But then, that is something totally within God's business and neither I nor anyone else can say completely what God can or cannot do.
• I only know that Jesus Christ is the singularly guaranteed means to salvation beyond death and living abundantly without end in His presence.
• 4. Not believing man (i.e. soul) is immortal*
  • renders the concept of eternal torment null and void
  • and opens the door to Christ being able to offer immortality to those who believe in Him.

In any event, the current trail dispensed with and moving back on track, the currently standing and tabled statement still begs a explanation:


If God had meant "hell" He would not have said "grave".

Indeed, the answer to this has been danced around the bush immensely by all who have contributed. Isn't it time to directly address this issue?

HypoTypoSis


*Romans 9:15, "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

*Exodus 33:19, "And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."

*1 Timothy 6:13-16, "I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."

 

[holdon]

.

• 4. Not believing man (i.e. soul) is immortal*
  • renders the concept of eternal torment null and void
  • and opens the door to Christ being able to offer immortality to those who believe in Him.

If you don't believe that the soul of the unbeliever is immortal, then you're an annihiliationist and you shouldn't be posting in the christians only forums per 3.5B.
I don't know why the moderators haven told you yet.

 

[HypoTypoSis]

If you don't believe that the soul of the unbeliever is immortal, then you're an annihiliationist and you shouldn't be posting in the christians only forums per 3.5B.

WRONG!

Nowhere does scripture- or forum rules - say mankind is immortal.

Not believing that immortal life is only possible through Jesus Christ is antithetical to Scripture and those they believe such should not be posting in the Christians only forum.

John 11:25, "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:"

That means NO one and NO other means is life, resurrection and immortality possible.

 

[HypoTypoSis]

NOT believing that man is immortal does NOT make one an annihiliationist.

Go set your baiting traps elsewhere.
I've been an SBC longer than you've been alive!

 

[holdon]

WRONG!

Nowhere does scripture- or forum rules - say mankind is immortal.

Not believing that immortal life is only possible through Jesus Christ is antithetical to Scripture and those they believe such should not be posting in the Christians only forum.

John 11:25, "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:"

That means NO one and NO other means is life, resurrection and immortality possible.

If God only has immortality as you say He does, then the saved don't have immortality either...., and angels are then mortal too. Contrary to Luke 20:36.
So "God only has immortality" means that He has only of Himself indepently, not that He cannot give it to His creatures.
Also, the term "mortal" always applies to the body, not to the soul. So, that even those who have eternal life, still can die as we all know.

But again, annihilationism shouldn't be discussed here. It's a "controversial topic".

 

[holdon]

I've been an SBC longer than you've been alive!

Well, that doesn't plead well for the Southern Baptist Convention, if that is the SBC you're talking about.