What is foreknowledge?

[Acure]

Hi Acure, I always enjoy reading new ideas. I haven't read your proposal before. Can I just check I understand your argument before we continue?

1. God searches a persons spirit before they are born.
2. God knows exactly what every person will choose in every situation. (Because of 1)
3. God knows the future. (1, 2)
4. Man has free choice.​

Can you explain how (3) and (4) are compatible? The Classical Incompatibilist Argument is as follows:

1. If a person acts of their own free will, then they could have done otherwise.
2. If determinism is true, no one can do otherwise than one actually does.
3. Therefore, if determinism is true, no one acts of their own free will.​

I'm not following how your proposal solves this problem sorry.

The whole reason for creating all spirits before creation is so both (3) and (4) will be true. By searching God knows what is in a person. John 2:25 says that Jesus had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man. Hebrews 4:12 says that the Word of God is living and powerful, sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. By searching us God can find out the thoughts and intents of the heart. Once you know this, then you can find out what the person will do in every situation. In Psalm 139:2-4 God knows when we will sit down or rise, He knows our thoughts, He is acquainted with all my ways. God knows this all because He has searched us and so He comes to know everything we will do. Multiply this for all people and God will know everything about the future.

God as creator can make man any way He wants. He can make man in such a way that man can have a free will and that he can be searchable so God will know how he thinks, how he reasons, what he would do in every situation. For free will to be real man has to be able to be in control of his reasoning process. He has to be an adult before he can really do this. It cannot be given by God. Otherwise God would be decreeing everything man does.

The Bible does make it clear that God searches us and by doing that He finds out all our ways. The question is when He does this. Psalm 139:16 and Jeremiah 1:5 hints that it is before we are born. But even if God waited until we are born, we do not have any reasoning or adult thinking yet. For God to search Adam, He would have to do it before creation. So why not create every person's spirit that ever will live and make them in such a way that they have adult reasoning? God can put the person through every stage of life so He can see how they reason during that stage.

I hope this helps you and anybody else reading this to understand what I am trying to say.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

The whole reason for creating all spirits before creation is so both (3) and (4) will be true. By searching God knows what is in a person. John 2:25 says that Jesus had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man. Hebrews 4:12 says that the Word of God is living and powerful, sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. By searching us God can find out the thoughts and intents of the heart. Once you know this, then you can find out what the person will do in every situation. In Psalm 139:2-4 God knows when we will sit down or rise, He knows our thoughts, He is acquainted with all my ways. God knows this all because He has searched us and so He comes to know everything we will do. Multiply this for all people and God will know everything about the future.

God as creator can make man any way He wants. He can make man in such a way that man can have a free will and that he can be searchable so God will know how he thinks, how he reasons, what he would do in every situation. For free will to be real man has to be able to be in control of his reasoning process. He has to be an adult before he can really do this. It cannot be given by God. Otherwise God would be decreeing everything man does.

The Bible does make it clear that God searches us and by doing that He finds out all our ways. The question is when He does this. Psalm 139:16 and Jeremiah 1:5 hints that it is before we are born. But even if God waited until we are born, we do not have any reasoning or adult thinking yet. For God to search Adam, He would have to do it before creation. So why not create every person's spirit that ever will live and make them in such a way that they have adult reasoning? God can put the person through every stage of life so He can see how they reason during that stage.

I hope this helps you and anybody else reading this to understand what I am trying to say.

Thanks for clarifying. So you are saying that because God knows the spirit of a person before they are born, He knows exactly what they will do in every situation. I guess my question is the same as before, how does this resolve the problem:

1. If a person acts of their own free will, then they could have done otherwise.
2. If determinism is true, no one can do otherwise than one actually does.
3. Therefore, if determinism is true, no one acts of their own free will.​

Another problem for the view that perhaps you could explain, is why God brings spirits into the world that will inevitably go to hell.

In short, I don't really see a difference between what you are prescribing and the classical compatibilist view, how are they different?

 

[Everybodyknows]

I don't really see a difference between what you are prescribing and the classical compatibilist view

What is the classical compatabilist view and how does it (attempt to) reconcile determinism and free will?

 

[YouAreAwesome]

What is the classical compatabilist view and how does it (attempt to) reconcile determinism and free will?

I am using classical compatibilist view (CCV) to mean that determinism (everything that happens is caused by the past) and free will (unencumbered ability of an agent to do what they want) are both completely true -- i.e. they are compatible with each other. CCV teaches that both determinism and the ability of an agent to do what they wish to do unencumbered are compatible.

Definitions are probably more important than I'm giving credit. We should probably agree on the definition of free will, and also agree on how "God knows the future". I've been using "determinism" to describe how God knows the future because @Acure is arguing that He searches a persons spirit before they are born and so He knows how that person will choose in every situation. Therefore, all that happens on the earth is able to be forecast from actions in the past. But I do not see how this is truly exercising one's free will. The argument against free will from this CCV definition is interesting:

Suppose that Danielle is psychologically incapable of wanting to touch a blond haired dog. Imagine that, on her sixteenth birthday, unaware of her condition, her father brings her two puppies to choose between, one being a blond haired Lab, the other a black haired Lab. He tells Danielle just to pick up whichever of the two she pleases and that he will return the other puppy to the pet store. Danielle happily, and unencumbered, does what she wants and picks up the black Lab.​

When Danielle picked up the black Lab, was she able to pick up the blond Lab? It seems not. Picking up the blond Lab was an alternative that was not available to her. In this respect, she could not have done otherwise. Given her psychological condition, she cannot even form a want to touch a blond Lab, hence she could not pick one up. But notice that, if she wanted to pick up the blond Lab, then she would have done so. Of course, if she wanted to pick up the blond Lab, then she would not suffer from the very psychological disorder that causes her to be unable to pick up blond haired doggies. The classical compatibilist analysis of ‘could have done otherwise’ thus fails. According to the analysis, when Danielle picked up the black Lab, she was able to pick up the blonde Lab, even though, due to her psychological condition, she was not able to do so in the relevant respect. Hence, the analysis yields the wrong result. (I got this from here)
​

I see this story/argument as very similar to God searching us before we are born. Our choices would be predetermined in the same way and while it appears we would have choice, would we really?

p.s. In answer to the actual question you asked, CCV reconciles free will and determinism by watering down what "free will" means.

p.s.s. Sorry, I should also say that there is a difference in the definition of free will between what I presented in the formal argument earlier, and the CCV definition -- previously free will is defined as "could have acted otherwise" while the CCV definition is "acts unencumbered".

 

[Acure]

Thanks for clarifying. So you are saying that because God knows the spirit of a person before they are born, He knows exactly what they will do in every situation. I guess my question is the same as before, how does this resolve the problem:

1. If a person acts of their own free will, then they could have done otherwise.
2. If determinism is true, no one can do otherwise than one actually does.
3. Therefore, if determinism is true, no one acts of their own free will.​

Another problem for the view that perhaps you could explain, is why God brings spirits into the world that will inevitably go to hell.

In short, I don't really see a difference between what you are prescribing and the classical compatibilist view, how are they different?

Of course if determinism is true then no one acts on their own free will. On the other hand if indeterminism is true then people truly have free choice, they could have done otherwise. I am an indeterminist, that is our actions are not determined by any force outside of us, they are not determined by God. Under determinism what you have is virtual free will. It looks and feels like free will but it is not, it is illusionary free will. I cannot see why God would deceive us by using virtual free will, taunting us with many commands and warnings when really God controls everything we do and many people end up in hell simply because God determined to send them there. The real reason why a person is saved is simply because they were on the winning side of God's grace lottery.

In my opinion indeterminists do not have any good mechanism on how to reconcile true free will with God's complete foreknowledge. Some use the God is outside of time argument, but from our point of view everything we will do is already determined before we are born. That is no true free will. Some indeterminists say that God's foreknowledge is limited, not complete. I do not see Scripture as affirming this. Some say it is a mystery that we will never know this side of heaven. This makes it easy for determinists to say that we are wrong, we have no mechanism how we can have both true free will and God has complete foreknowledge.

My God searching spirits before creation idea is a way to explain how both true free will and God's complete foreknowledge can be true.

For God to search our hearts us there has to be information there. If God put the information there then that would be determinism and not true free will, it would be virtual free will. For true free will to be there, we have to be the ones putting the information there, not God. That is why we would have to exist in some way before we are born or are even conceived.

So God creates blank spirits with no information there to search. God makes a way for us to put information there by free will. God then searches us and knows us. Yes many spirits will get born and end up going to hell because they never believed. But this would be man's fault. According to Romans 1 they would be without excuse because God revealed Himself and they suppressed God's truth. Under determinism God makes them suppress His truth and then judges them for supressing God's truth something God predestined them to do.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Of course if determinism is true then no one acts on their own free will. On the other hand if indeterminism is true then people truly have free choice, they could have done otherwise. I am an indeterminist, that is our actions are not determined by any force outside of us, they are not determined by God. Under determinism what you have is virtual free will. It looks and feels like free will but it is not, it is illusionary free will. I cannot see why God would deceive us by using virtual free will, taunting us with many commands and warnings when really God controls everything we do and many people end up in hell simply because God determined to send them there. The real reason why a person is saved is simply because they were on the winning side of God's grace lottery.

Well said! Absolutely agree.

In my opinion indeterminists do not have any good mechanism on how to reconcile true free will with God's complete foreknowledge.

Absolutely agree.

Some use the God is outside of time argument, but from our point of view everything we will do is already determined before we are born. That is no true free will.

Yes!

Some indeterminists say that God's foreknowledge is limited, not complete. I do not see Scripture as affirming this.

I sit here and believe Scripture does affirm this view.

Some say it is a mystery that we will never know this side of heaven. This makes it easy for determinists to say that we are wrong, we have no mechanism how we can have both true free will and God has complete foreknowledge.

Exactly!

For God to search our hearts us there has to be information there. If God put the information there then that would be determinism and not true free will, it would be virtual free will. For true free will to be there, we have to be the ones putting the information there, not God. That is why we would have to exist in some way before we are born or are even conceived.

So God creates blank spirits with no information there to search. God makes a way for us to put information there by free will. God then searches us and knows us. Yes many spirits will get born and end up going to hell because they never believed. But this would be man's fault. According to Romans 1 they would be without excuse because God revealed Himself and they suppressed God's truth. Under determinism God makes them suppress His truth and then judges them for supressing God's truth something God predestined them to do.

I'm not following sorry. God searches us before we are born but after we create information within ourselves by our own free will. He then can see exactly how we will act in every situation. Combining this with his omniscience of the material universe He can see the total future. Am I close? If this is a right assessment of your proposal, how is this different to the example of Danielle in the post to @Everybodyknows #164? If God already knows exactly what we will do, can we do otherwise? You seem to be redefining freewill as acts unencumbered rather than could have acted otherwise.

 

[Everybodyknows]

My God searching spirits before creation idea is a way to explain how both true free will and God's complete foreknowledge can be true.

In what way are you preserving God's complete foreknowledge? I guess it depends on how you define foreknowledge. When I hear complete foreknowledge I assume it to mean God having complete knowledge of all events from eternity past to eternity future. IOW there is no time at which God does not know something. This is what theologians usually mean by his foreknowledge.

So God creates blank spirits with no information there to search. God makes a way for us to put information there by free will. God then searches us and knows us

God, then doesn't know the future of the spirits until they are created and carry information? This would imply that God faces an unfolding future, as he wouldn't know what free agents will do until they exist.

He has to be an adult before he can really do this. It cannot be given by God. Otherwise God would be decreeing everything man does.

Here you seem to bring some determinism back into it, if I'm following your point correctly. So essentially you seem to be saying that God doesn't initially know our future in regards to our free will choices then at some point we gain enough experience/information that God can know our future based on how we have developed in the past. This is only partial free will then, we only have free will in childhood/adolescence and then reach a point where or future is determined by our past choices. And God can know with certainty all that we will do from that point on.

All in all your view seems far closer to @YouAreAwesome than most traditional theology, in the sense that God does not know future free will choices. Please feel free to correct me if I misunderstand anything you say.

 

[Acure]

Well said! Absolutely agree.



Absolutely agree.



Yes!



I sit here and believe Scripture does affirm this view.



Exactly!



I'm not following sorry. God searches us before we are born but after we create information within ourselves by our own free will. He then can see exactly how we will act in every situation. Combining this with his omniscience of the material universe He can see the total future. Am I close? If this is a right assessment of your proposal, how is this different to the example of Danielle in the post to @Everybodyknows #164? If God already knows exactly what we will do, can we do otherwise? You seem to be redefining freewill as acts unencumbered rather than could have acted otherwise.

Well said! Absolutely agree.



Absolutely agree.



Yes!



I sit here and believe Scripture does affirm this view.



Exactly!



I'm not following sorry. God searches us before we are born but after we create information within ourselves by our own free will. He then can see exactly how we will act in every situation. Combining this with his omniscience of the material universe He can see the total future. Am I close? If this is a right assessment of your proposal, how is this different to the example of Danielle in the post to @Everybodyknows #164? If God already knows exactly what we will do, can we do otherwise? You seem to be redefining freewill as acts unencumbered rather than could have acted otherwise.

I was writing a response and then somehow I appeared to have lost all the text that I had written. Then I saw Everybodyknows post and decided to respond to that person. Both of you do not seem to get what I am saying. So what I said there applies to you as well for the most part. So disregard this and read my reply from the previous post.

 

[Acure]

In what way are you preserving God's complete foreknowledge? I guess it depends on how you define foreknowledge. When I hear complete foreknowledge I assume it to mean God having complete knowledge of all events from eternity past to eternity future. IOW there is no time at which God does not know something. This is what theologians usually mean by his foreknowledge.


God, then doesn't know the future of the spirits until they are created and carry information? This would imply that God faces an unfolding future, as he wouldn't know what free agents will do until they exist.


Here you seem to bring some determinism back into it, if I'm following your point correctly. So essentially you seem to be saying that God doesn't initially know our future in regards to our free will choices then at some point we gain enough experience/information that God can know our future based on how we have developed in the past. This is only partial free will then, we only have free will in childhood/adolescence and then reach a point where or future is determined by our past choices. And God can know with certainty all that we will do from that point on.

All in all your view seems far closer to @YouAreAwesome than most traditional theology, in the sense that God does not know future free will choices. Please feel free to correct me if I misunderstand anything you say.

My definition of foreknowledge in my spirit creating context is before creation knowledge, not forever knowledge. The idea of complete foreknowledge from eternity past is one that has to be assumed. Nowhere in the Bible it states that God knew all things forever. Show me where the Bible states this.

In Jeremiah 19:5 God talks about sacrificing your own children with fire for burnt offerings to Baal. God said that He did not command this or speak this, it did not even enter God's mind. God says this again in 32:35. Man did something that never entered God's mind. So God did not always know that Israel would sacrifice their own children to Baal.

My definition of foreknowledge in my spirit creating context is before creation knowledge, not forever knowledge. The idea of complete foreknowledge from eternity past is one that has to be assumed. Nowhere in the Bible it states that God knew all things forever. Show me where the Bible states this.

In Jeremiah 19:5 God talks about sacrificing your own children with fire for burnt offerings to Baal. God said that He did not command this or speak this, it did not even enter God's mind. God says this again in 32:35. Man did something that never entered God's mind. So God did not always know that Israel would sacrifice their own children to Baal.

God, then doesn't know the future of the spirits until they are created and carry information? This would imply that God faces an unfolding future, as he wouldn't know what free agents will do until they exist

When God creates the spirits before creation they exist in spirit, that is the thinking or reasoning part of them. He gives them a long dream where God is learning how they reason or think. This includes all stages of life. The dream is finished before creation. Then God can search and know everything about us before creation. We lose memory of our dreams and are not conscious until we are born.

Just like dreams today, it does not happen in real life. In the Bible God often communicated to people in dreams and visions. God appeared to Solomon in a dream in 1 Kings 3:5 to ask him, "What shall I give you!" Similarly God could ask us a million questions in our pre creation dreams or one long dream to determine how we reason and think in every situation and stage in life. Either that or God could put our whole life before us to determine how we think and reason in every situation.

3 disciples of Jesus had a vision where Jesus was transfigured and shone like the sun. People from the past, Moses and Elijah appeared there also. The vision was so real that Peter wanted it to last a long time. He wanted to set up three tabernacles there. God put people there who were not living at that time.

The entire book of Revelation is a vision that God gave to John. Ezekiel had an amazing vision of God. God warned Joseph in a dream that he should take Mary as his wife.
God used dreams and visions to accomplish His purposes. Hebrews 1:1 says, "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets." Various times and various ways implies that He did not speak just by the prophets. There could be other ways. Various times could suggest that pre-creation could be one of those various times.

He could have used dreams and visions before creation to reveal to man how the created world would be like. You need to have some kind of knowledge before you can answer questions of what you would do in every situation.
God could make the dream last a lifetime where all life events come before us and God can see our reasoning and thinking of how to respond to life's events and situations
However God would have done it, God could use dreams to get us to decide by free will how we would respond to every situation, how we would think. He could get to know us completely through the dreams.

1 Corinthians 13:11-12 says, "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known."

That is why I said for part of the dream I am like a child so God can know how I reason when I am a child. In heaven we shall know God completely like God knows us now. God does not know us because He decreed our thoughts and ways. He knows us because He has searched us and known us. We have to exist in some capacity for God to do this in a fair way, where we have true free will.

So pre-creation was one of those various times where God spoke and related to us in one of His various ways. See Hebrews 1:1. This way God can predestinate our eternal destinations based on what He has determined from us pre-creation. We have given God all the information He needs before creation so God can search us and know us completely before the foundation of the earth.

 

[Everybodyknows]

My definition of foreknowledge in my spirit creating context is before creation knowledge, not forever knowledge. The idea of complete foreknowledge from eternity past is one that has to be assumed. Nowhere in the Bible it states that God knew all things forever. Show me where the Bible states this.

The Bible isn't really clear exactly on what God knows and when/how he knows it. Forever knowledge arises as somewhat of a necessity because we ascribe to God the attribute of omniscience. If he is all knowing in nature then he must always be all knowing. I.e. there is no time at which God didn't know something, if there was it would mean there was some point in the past where he became omniscient. If this were the case then we couldn't call him God because his nature is changeable. I don't necessarily agree with this though, it's all a matter of how we understand omniscience, but it seems to be pretty standard theology. Molinism and open theism challenge this view of omniscience in absolute terms.

When God creates the spirits before creation they exist in spirit, that is the thinking or reasoning part of them. He gives them a long dream where God is learning how they reason or think. This includes all stages of life. The dream is finished before creation. Then God can search and know everything about us before creation. We lose memory of our dreams and are not conscious until we are born.

Just like dreams today, it does not happen in real life. In the Bible God often communicated to people in dreams and visions. God appeared to Solomon in a dream in 1 Kings 3:5 to ask him, "What shall I give you!" Similarly God could ask us a million questions in our pre creation dreams or one long dream to determine how we reason and think in every situation and stage in life. Either that or God could put our whole life before us to determine how we think and reason in every situation.

3 disciples of Jesus had a vision where Jesus was transfigured and shone like the sun. People from the past, Moses and Elijah appeared there also. The vision was so real that Peter wanted it to last a long time. He wanted to set up three tabernacles there. God put people there who were not living at that time.

The entire book of Revelation is a vision that God gave to John. Ezekiel had an amazing vision of God. God warned Joseph in a dream that he should take Mary as his wife.
God used dreams and visions to accomplish His purposes. Hebrews 1:1 says, "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets." Various times and various ways implies that He did not speak just by the prophets. There could be other ways. Various times could suggest that pre-creation could be one of those various times.

He could have used dreams and visions before creation to reveal to man how the created world would be like. You need to have some kind of knowledge before you can answer questions of what you would do in every situation.
God could make the dream last a lifetime where all life events come before us and God can see our reasoning and thinking of how to respond to life's events and situations
However God would have done it, God could use dreams to get us to decide by free will how we would respond to every situation, how we would think. He could get to know us completely through the dreams.

1 Corinthians 13:11-12 says, "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known."

That is why I said for part of the dream I am like a child so God can know how I reason when I am a child. In heaven we shall know God completely like God knows us now. God does not know us because He decreed our thoughts and ways. He knows us because He has searched us and known us. We have to exist in some capacity for God to do this in a fair way, where we have true free will.

So pre-creation was one of those various times where God spoke and related to us in one of His various ways. See Hebrews 1:1. This way God can predestinate our eternal destinations based on what He has determined from us pre-creation. We have given God all the information He needs before creation so God can search us and know us completely before the foundation of the earth.

Right. Sorry I misunderstood your point. That is quite a unique view, I've never come across something quite like it. Plenty to think about.

Just a question. Do you think God knew everything that would happen in creation at the moment of creation? Can things happen in the universe that God doesn't have foreknowledge of? Like the example of sacrificing children you gave, did this come unexpected to God?

 

[lee11]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

God will not let this happen for his projects; he is relentless. So I'm not sure this is a good objection.

hi

what about God creating the earth and then destroying man on the earth after the fall.

it appears this was not Gods intention for his project but bible history records this did happen.

how dose this example fit into your theory that God would not let this happen or possibly not be able to see this outcome before he created the earth? or not have the foresight to create lucifer and see lucifers rebellion in heaven or lucifers temptation of Adam of Eve etc.

Peace

 

[YouAreAwesome]

The idea of complete foreknowledge from eternity past is one that has to be assumed.

Is this your way of saying "God is omniscient with respect to the past"?

Nowhere in the Bible it states that God knew all things forever.

Are you saying here that God does not know the complete future? Can I clarify, do you believe He knows the future with regard to our world/universe, but doesn't know the entire future beyond that? Or do you believe He knows only some part of the future with regard to our universe?

In Jeremiah 19:5 God talks about sacrificing your own children with fire for burnt offerings to Baal. God said that He did not command this or speak this, it did not even enter God's mind. God says this again in 32:35. Man did something that never entered God's mind. So God did not always know that Israel would sacrifice their own children to Baal.

I absolutely agree with you.

When God creates the spirits before creation they exist in spirit, that is the thinking or reasoning part of them. He gives them a long dream where God is learning how they reason or think. This includes all stages of life. The dream is finished before creation. Then God can search and know everything about us before creation. We lose memory of our dreams and are not conscious until we are born.

Just like dreams today, it does not happen in real life. In the Bible God often communicated to people in dreams and visions. God appeared to Solomon in a dream in 1 Kings 3:5 to ask him, "What shall I give you!" Similarly God could ask us a million questions in our pre creation dreams or one long dream to determine how we reason and think in every situation and stage in life. Either that or God could put our whole life before us to determine how we think and reason in every situation.

Are you arguing that, because God knows us so well, He knows the future?

3 disciples of Jesus had a vision where Jesus was transfigured and shone like the sun. People from the past, Moses and Elijah appeared there also. The vision was so real that Peter wanted it to last a long time. He wanted to set up three tabernacles there. God put people there who were not living at that time.

The entire book of Revelation is a vision that God gave to John. Ezekiel had an amazing vision of God. God warned Joseph in a dream that he should take Mary as his wife.
God used dreams and visions to accomplish His purposes. Hebrews 1:1 says, "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets." Various times and various ways implies that He did not speak just by the prophets. There could be other ways. Various times could suggest that pre-creation could be one of those various times.

I agree it is possible.

This way God can predestinate our eternal destinations based on what He has determined from us pre-creation. We have given God all the information He needs before creation so God can search us and know us completely before the foundation of the earth.

I'm pretty sure I understand your proposal, but I still don't see how it solves the problem. You are arguing that, by God knowing us very well, He knows exactly what we will choose because He's seen us choose before--in dreams. I just don't see how this is any different to the example of Danielle in the post to @Everybodyknows #164? As I said, if God already knows exactly what we will do, can we do otherwise? You seem to be redefining freewill as acts unencumbered rather than could have acted otherwise. You are saying, once we have chosen something, when faced with that same decision, we will always choose that again. Wouldn't this mean we can not act otherwise, and therefore we do not have free will? Perhaps in our dreams we had free will, but not after--because we can no longer choose anything but what has already been determined by our previous choices. I also don't understand why God would send a spirit into the earth, that He has already seen from the dreams, will inevitably not be saved. Why did He choose to send the psychopaths and murderers? Can you explain a bit further?

 

[Tayla]

how dose this example fit into your theory that God would not let this happen or possibly not be able to see this outcome before he created the earth? or not have the foresight to create lucifer and see lucifers rebellion in heaven or lucifers temptation of Adam of Eve etc.

I don't claim that God would not allow Lucifer's rebellion to occur. God clearly allowed for this in creating Lucifer with free will and granting him so much power and influence.

 

[Everybodyknows]

I'm pretty sure I understand your proposal, but I still don't see how it solves the problem. You are arguing that, by God knowing us very well, He knows exactly what we will choose because He's seen us choose before--in dreams. I just don't see how this is any different to the example of Danielle in the post to @Everybodyknows #164? As I said, if God already knows exactly what we will do, can we do otherwise? You seem to be redefining freewill as acts unencumbered rather than could have acted otherwise. You are saying, once we have chosen something, when faced with that same decision, we will always choose that again. Wouldn't this mean we can not act otherwise, and therefore we do not have free will? Perhaps in our dreams we had free will, but not after--because we can no longer choose anything but what has already been determined by our previous choices. I also don't understand why God would send a spirit into the earth, that He has already seen from the dreams, will inevitably not be saved. Why did He choose to send the psychopaths and murderers? Can you explain a bit further?

The one thing this approach does is it removes us from the causal chain operative within the physical universe. Even if you see it as still resulting in determinism for human choice, the cause of that determinism is completely within ourselves rather than a result of external factors a la traditional determinism.

I'm not sure though what biblical evidence there is for the pre-existence of human spirits.

 

[lee11]

I don't claim that God would not allow Lucifer's rebellion to occur. God clearly allowed for this in creating Lucifer with free will and granting him so much power and influence.

hi

i think there are a few concerns here

your theory or understanding of foreknowledge

must always be consistent and the same as to what ever examples you have previously applied it too or applied it to in relation to other peoples provided examples.

you say you did not claim that God would not allow Lucifer's rebellion to occur. God clearly allowed for this in creating Lucifer with free will and granting him so much power and influence.

this statement is completely irrelevant in relation to your theory of foreknowledge

the question was not your understanding about lucifers rebellion and why God did or did not permit him to excise his free will.

the question was how do any of the 3 examples i provided qualify or fit in to your theory of foreknowledge.

if God already knew the outcome and consequences of one of his ideas or concepts due to his ability of foreknowledge or foresight.

he doesn't have to follow through with it, he can changed the idea or concept at any time.

to give him self the perfect outcome every time.

so how do any of these 3 examples i provided fit into your your foreknowledge theory?

Peace

 

[YouAreAwesome]

The one thing this approach does is it removes us from the causal chain operative within the physical universe. Even if you see it as still resulting in determinism for human choice, the cause of that determinism is completely within ourselves rather than a result of external factors a la traditional determinism.

I'm not sure though what biblical evidence there is for the pre-existence of human spirits.

Fair point. My contention though is not regarding where the free choice originates, but that foreknowledge implies no choice at all. Once a future action is established as truth, we have no choice but to act that way even if it appears to be free.

 

[Everybodyknows]

Fair point. My contention though is not regarding where the free choice originates, but that foreknowledge implies no choice at all. Once a future action is established as truth, we have no choice but to act that way even if it appears to be free.

Yes, well that seems to be the downside. If everything about our life is determined by our spirit pre-existence, then our existence seems an unnecessary step between pre-existence and afterlife.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Yes, well that seems to be the downside. If everything about our life is determined by our spirit pre-existence, then our existence seems an unnecessary step between pre-existence and afterlife.

Yes, agree, another good point. The average Christian I’ve met seems to think we have free will but god knows us so well that He knows what we will choose thereby explaining free will and foreknowledge. I don’t see too much difference between this and @Acure ’s view apart from using some isolated verses to support the extra ideas. At this point, in my mind, they both fail to preserve free will, and they both fail to explain why God can be surprised, or why God may change His mind after a conversation with a human.

 

[lee11]

hi

this theory completely contradicts the teachings of the bible.

if this is foreknowledge and accurate then there is no need for free will, heaven and hell, sin,, the devil,God ,salvation christianity or any commandments what so ever,

they are all completely irrelevant

your understanding and concept of foreknowledge means no one is accountable liable or responsible.

we are all just programmed robots fulfilling the program we have already be programmed to do.

there are no murders rapists or good or bad people because we are just fulfilling our programs as robots.

there is no corruption or chaos in the world as we all just fulfilling our programs.

another words this theory means we are just salve labour and amusement for a board entity.

that dosent sound right

it sounds like another tactic the enemy would use to steal kill and destroy from Christians.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

Thank you for your informative post.


Which particular idea? I present 3 quite different ideas.



The three points I present roughly correspond to your three interpretations of time.

• Does God have knowledge of the obstacle before he encounters it?

Corresponds to static time

• Does God have knowledge of all possible obstacles he might encounter but not specific knowledge of which ones he will actually face? So instead of a singular plan of action god has multiple contingency plans in place to cover every possible scenario.

Corresponds to contingent time

• Or does it take him by complete surprise? He has no (or limited) knowledge of the future.

Corresponds to dynamic time

I'm not, at this stage, even presenting an argument, rather I'm trying to gauge the OPs position and make sure we agree on definitions and terminology in order to have a productive conversation.

I think that this was a pretty good summary. Note however the obstacle cannot be a physical thing (such as a rock, even hidden) because one does not need foreknowledge to know that the rock that was there 40 years ago when the house was built won't have suddenly disappeared in the meantime.