What is foreknowledge?

[Everybodyknows]

Philosophy of men? Uh, no.

LOL Col 2:8

God Bless,
SBC

So is Calvinism.
LOL

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Philosophy of men? Uh, no.

LOL Col 2:8

God Bless,
SBC

Ephesians 4:23
Proverbs 25:2

 

[SBC]

So is Calvinism.
LOL

And? You're point? Are you suggesting if I agree with something a supposed Calvinist says, you think you can imply I am a Calvinist? I never said I hold to their doctrine or claim that "tag", ie Calvinist.

Do you think Jesus was a Prophet? So is the same taught in Islam.
Tacky little implications are funny eh?

God Bless,
SBC

 

[SBC]

Ephesians 4:23
Proverbs 25:2

Eph 4:23 [23] And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

Proverbs 25:[2] It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

These verses have what to do with rejecting philosophies of men and INSTEAD seeking after Christ?

Col 2
[8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Are you still praying for me, to do as you do, in seeking philosophies of men, instead of me seeking after Christ?

No worries on my end, such a prayer is of none affect on me.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Everybodyknows]

And? You're point? Are you suggesting if I agree with something a supposed Calvinist says, you think you can imply I am a Calvinist? I never said I hold to their doctrine or claim that "tag", ie Calvinist.

Do you think Jesus was a Prophet? So is the same taught in Islam.
Tacky little implications are funny eh?

God Bless,
SBC

I'm not an open theist either. My point is simply that it's easy to dismiss all other points of view as the philosophies of men while your own is the revelation of God. I've been wrong far too many times in my life to hold this simplistic 'I'm right and they're wrong' attitude. Once we can let go of our need to be right we can truly begin the process of gaining understanding.

 

[SBC]

I'm not an open theist either. My point is simply that it's easy to dismiss all other points of view as the philosophies of men while your own is the revelation of God. I've been wrong far too many times in my life to hold this simplistic 'I'm right and they're wrong' attitude. Once we can let go of our need to be right we can truly begin the process of gaining understanding.

Philosophies of men, are men of their own thinking and devising deciding what Scripture means. Scripture itself WARNS us to Beware, of such and reject it, and instead seek after Christ.

Mine own, is in agreement with Scripture, and why it IS my own to believe, and WHY it is after Christ, and not after the rudiments of the world and traditions of men.

Revelations of God - It is a most simple lesson taught in Scripture -
Knowledge WAS withheld - kept secret from early men.
Knowledge WAS later revealed - after centuries of men having occupied the earth.

Judg 13
[18] And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

Matt 1
[21] And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Acts 7
[8] And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs.

Rom 2
[29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Pss 78
[2] I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

Matt 13
[34] All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
[35] That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables;
[35b] I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Matt 10
[26] Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

It is well known things were not revealed to early men, but things, WERE kept secret, hid, covered, not revealed.......and then LATER, after centuries of generations of men had lived and died.....things that WERE kept secret, hid, covered, WERE thereafter REVEALED.

END of Bible - ie REVELATIONS


You may think it simplistic of "I'm right and they're wrong".
However, I want and seek to be right. It is HOW one is lead to RIGHTeousness, OF GOD.
And I simply disagree with others who seek philosophies of men, when the Word of truth is with Christ, and received by those who seek after Him.
Others can consider that, or themselves reject it. Matters none to me. But I have said according to Scripture, and will stand with my positions, regardless if others like it or not or bad mouth it or not.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[SBC]

My point is simply that it's easy to dismiss all other points of view as the philosophies of men

Someone made a point also - and attached an article - there was no need for me to wonder IF I was viewing an others point as philosophy of men.

YouAreAwesome said: ↑
It's quite astounding for me, that without reading the open-theist position, I came to believe in agreement with it in almost every way - this article explains how I think about foreknowledge very clearly and pretty much represents my exact position.

Title of article ~ (also noting it was in a draft stage, not quite ready to be quoted)

Philosophically oriented overview of open theism

in Open Theism /by John Sanders

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Everybodyknows]

Someone made a point also - and attached an article - there was no need for me to wonder IF I was viewing an others point as philosophy of men.



Title of article ~ (also noting it was in a draft stage, not quite ready to be quoted)

God Bless,
SBC

Fair enough. I understand your point now. So you simply reject all that is in any way based in philosophy. There is however a strong tradition of Christian philosophy going back to the early church (e.g. Augustine) and many of core Christian beliefs come from reasoning through scripture by Greek methodology. It seems difficult to have a form of Christianity without any roots in philosophy.

I'm not opposed to philosophy as such, I think people make it a dirty word. It's merely one of the tools we can use to aid our understanding of complex ideas. It can be useful in circumstances, but I don't automatically accept it's conclusions.

 

[Everybodyknows]

Revelations of God - It is a most simple lesson taught in Scripture -
Knowledge WAS withheld - kept secret from early men.
Knowledge WAS later revealed - after centuries of men having occupied the earth.

Agree

It is well known things were not revealed to early men, but things, WERE kept secret, hid, covered, not revealed.......and then LATER, after centuries of generations of men had lived and died.....things that WERE kept secret, hid, covered, WERE thereafter REVEALED.

END of Bible - ie REVELATIONS

Are you saying that there was no further revelation beyond the scripture? Perhaps I misunderstand, but this seems at odds with what you say in #136.

You may think it simplistic of "I'm right and they're wrong".

It's simplistic in the sense that for every person that is adamant they're right there is another adamantly right person who disagrees with them.

However, I want and seek to be right. It is HOW one is lead to RIGHTeousness, OF GOD.

I thought righteousness was by faith, not by right beliefs.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Eph 4:23 [23] And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

Proverbs 25:[2] It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

These verses have what to do with rejecting philosophies of men and INSTEAD seeking after Christ?

To seek after Christ one must be willing to receive His message. One must be willing to change ones mind, have it renewed in spirit. God conceals a matter, we search out the matter. It is a virtue to desire understanding, but of course, more important is to know God. The two go hand in hand. The mind is like a parachute, works best when it's open.

 

[SBC]

Fair enough. I understand your point now. So you simply reject all that is in any way based in philosophy. There is however a strong tradition of Christian philosophy going back to the early church (e.g. Augustine) and many of core Christian beliefs come from reasoning through scripture by Greek methodology. It seems difficult to have a form of Christianity without any roots in philosophy.

I'm not opposed to philosophy as such, I think people make it a dirty word. It's merely one of the tools we can use to aid our understanding of complex ideas. It can be useful in circumstances, but I don't automatically accept it's conclusions.

I sort of see Philosophy of men as their deep thought opinion, and there after their expounding - so to accept, you accept the whole, or reject because you do not accept the whole.

YouAreAwesome said: ↑
It's quite astounding for me, that without reading the open-theist position, I came to believe in agreement with it in almost every way - this article explains how I think about foreknowledge very clearly and pretty much represents my exact position.

Here's the part that says "in almost every way", "pretty much represents my exact position". And? What does that mean? Some parts do not? And If this is an important
article you want others to know you agree with....and there are parts you don't agree with, is an other supposed to guess what that would be?

So what does the person who posted this article agree with? Not agree with? IDK

I started reading the article, and found things said in opposition to Scripture - thus I rejected the whole.

And when I rely on Scripture instead of Philosophies of men; I do not have to include: in almost every way, or pretty much represents my exact position.

I find it more beneficial for myself, to stick with the Truth, and not bother with having to pick through opinions of others, that I might or might not agree with.
Just sayin...Simply my choice.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[SBC]

To seek after Christ one must be willing to receive His message. One must be willing to change ones mind, have it renewed in spirit. God conceals a matter, we search out the matter. It is a virtue to desire understanding, but of course, more important is to know God. The two go hand in hand. The mind is like a parachute, works best when it's open.

I was clear in the Scripture I quoted...to forego philosophies of men and seek Christ.

You then present Scripture about seeking, renewing ones mind, as if I said otherwise...
which was not the case.

God gave us His Word to seek. You reveal Philosophies of Men suit you. I trust the scripture suits me, and you should have gotten that from the scripture I quoted.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[YouAreAwesome]

I started reading the article, and found things said in opposition to Scripture

Such as? (Remembering we are discussing God's "foreknowledge" in the thread as the overall aim).

 

[SBC]

Are you saying that there was no further revelation beyond the scripture? Perhaps I misunderstand, but this seems at odds with what you say in #136.

Post # 136 In the beginning - men new to this world - were like babes - without knowledge, having to learn words, what the words meant, being taught by something they could not see, or touch.
Yes, God does do SOMETHING...He REVEALS, uncovers, shows, what was hidden.

Post # 146 It is well known things were not revealed to early men, but things, WERE kept secret, hid, covered, not revealed.......and then LATER, after centuries of generations of men had lived and died.....things that WERE kept secret, hid, covered, WERE thereafter REVEALED.

At odds? How so?

Are you saying that there was no further revelation beyond the scripture?

Script means a writing of something.
Scripture has a beginning and ending. The first page of the book the last page of the book. Shall there be MORE Scriptures written to reveal? No.

Is there more that IS revealed? Yes. Via Gods Spirit to mans born again spirit.

John 14
[26] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

What the Holy Spirit has to teach a man is unfathomable.

John 21
[25] And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

God Bless,
SBC

I thought righteousness was by faith, not by right beliefs.

Right belief is what a man does.
Faith is what God gives a man for right belief.

 

[SBC]

Such as? (Remembering we are discussing God's "foreknowledge" in the thread as the overall aim).

Sort of odd, it was your rendition, you saying you don't believe all, which you did not reveal, but wonder what part I did not believe.

Tenet;
"God does not operate according to a blueprint or detailed plan."
Philosophically oriented overview of open theism | John Sanders

Jer 1:5 [5] Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;

Num 16 [5] And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the LORD will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Everybodyknows]

I sort of see Philosophy of men as their deep thought opinion, and there after their expounding - so to accept, you accept the whole, or reject because you do not accept the whole.

There is no whole to accept or reject. Philosophy is simply a method not a conclusion. It doesn't provide a consistent, singular result. Various philosophers have held differing views on a huge range our subjects over thousands of years.

It's like systematic theology is a method but various theologians hold different positions. It makes no sense to say you must accept or reject the whole because there is no whole. You accept or reject various ideas or interpretations while accepting others.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Sort of odd, it was your rendition, you saying you don't believe all, which you did not reveal, but wonder what part I did not believe.



Jer 1:5 [5] Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;

Num 16 [5] And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the LORD will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.

God Bless,
SBC

Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

God speaks to Jeremiah about the time before he was born. God had a purpose for Jeremiah's life (as we all have a purpose). Where does it say Jeremiah could not have rejected God's calling on his life? The Pharisees rejected their calling (see Luke 7:30). Many people in the bible who God purposed freely rejected it. Every person has a choice. Jeremiah was free to accept or reject, do you agree?

 

[Everybodyknows]

At odds? How so?

This:

6,000 years of KNOWLEDGE God has provided the World's inhabitants.
The time is ripe for receiving the UNDERSTANDING of Gods Knowledge

vs this:

END of Bible - ie REVELATIONS

But this clears it up:

Is there more that IS revealed? Yes. Via Gods Spirit to mans born again spirit.

Thank you

 

[Acure]

I like your final statement:

Foreknowledge is not seeing a physical reality from the future but, rather, a creative process; working from the present moment forward (knowledge looking forward).​

I would say this is one way in which God approaches the future. He makes certain things happen. However, I think He knows the future in other ways also because He knows all in the present. Because He knows all in the present (but doesn't know all in the future) He can make predictions that will come to pass because they do not rely on human choices. Other things He may know will happen if humans choose it that way, and He sees that they will most likely choose that way.

One last thing, even though His foreknowledge is limited by our free will, He can still exercise His omnipotence to ensure certain plans come to pass.

Excellent thread BTW.

I disagree with the time argument. From the human perspective if God knows all I will do before I am born, then the future is decided and I have no free choice. I strongly believe that man has true free choice and God has known all future decisions of man before creation. How can both of these be true?

Psalms 139 says Search me and know me. God knows man by searching him. God cannot know future decisions of any human until He has searched them. God created man and He knows how they operate for He has made man. It could be like a huge computer program. If this happens then the person will do this. This would be how a person reasons. There could be millions of these if loops. God writes many if questions but who answers them? If God does, then man has no free choice. He is the way God created him. But if man could input the answers then man has free choice. But man was not there before the creation of the world.

The Bible says that God searches us and as a result of His searching He knows us. But when does He search? If we had to exist first and God did not search us until the day we were born then we may exist but we have no reasoning. There would be no free choice because we could not be answering God's if questions when we still know nothing.

Scripture does not say so, but I believe we all were created but only as a spirit (not body, soul and spirit - the way we are now) before creation. God wanted to create a world of free will people but God wanted to know everything that would happen before creation. So He created all spirits. We existed in a dream world. God could relate with us and we could respond. Dreams today are a remnant of this. We forget our dreams usually before we wake up. Then after our long dream, our spirit sleeps and we are not conscious until we are born. In this way God could search all people before He creates the world. Man would have true free will and God would have complete foreknowledge. God could then predestinate based on foreknowledge gained from searching, not intimacy foreknowledge.

This is a new way of thinking to try to get around the age old free will, predestination problem. It uses scripture, mainly Psalm 139, Jeremiah 1:5. It assumes something not in the Bible so it will be controversial. Tell me what you think.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

I disagree with the time argument. From the human perspective if God knows all I will do before I am born, then the future is decided and I have no free choice. I strongly believe that man has true free choice and God has known all future decisions of man before creation. How can both of these be true?

Psalms 139 says Search me and know me. God knows man by searching him. God cannot know future decisions of any human until He has searched them. God created man and He knows how they operate for He has made man. It could be like a huge computer program. If this happens then the person will do this. This would be how a person reasons. There could be millions of these if loops. God writes many if questions but who answers them? If God does, then man has no free choice. He is the way God created him. But if man could input the answers then man has free choice. But man was not there before the creation of the world.

The Bible says that God searches us and as a result of His searching He knows us. But when does He search? If we had to exist first and God did not search us until the day we were born then we may exist but we have no reasoning. There would be no free choice because we could not be answering God's if questions when we still know nothing.

Scripture does not say so, but I believe we all were created but only as a spirit (not body, soul and spirit - the way we are now) before creation. God wanted to create a world of free will people but God wanted to know everything that would happen before creation. So He created all spirits. We existed in a dream world. God could relate with us and we could respond. Dreams today are a remnant of this. We forget our dreams usually before we wake up. Then after our long dream, our spirit sleeps and we are not conscious until we are born. In this way God could search all people before He creates the world. Man would have true free will and God would have complete foreknowledge. God could then predestinate based on foreknowledge gained from searching, not intimacy foreknowledge.

This is a new way of thinking to try to get around the age old free will, predestination problem. It uses scripture, mainly Psalm 139, Jeremiah 1:5. It assumes something not in the Bible so it will be controversial. Tell me what you think.

Hi Acure, I always enjoy reading new ideas. I haven't read your proposal before. Can I just check I understand your argument before we continue?

1. God searches a persons spirit before they are born.
2. God knows exactly what every person will choose in every situation. (Because of 1)
3. God knows the future. (1, 2)
4. Man has free choice.​

Can you explain how (3) and (4) are compatible? The Classical Incompatibilist Argument is as follows:

1. If a person acts of their own free will, then they could have done otherwise.
2. If determinism is true, no one can do otherwise than one actually does.
3. Therefore, if determinism is true, no one acts of their own free will.​

I'm not following how your proposal solves this problem sorry.