What is foreknowledge?

[YouAreAwesome]

Disagree.

God does not change. His creations change. God does not change.

Mal 3: [6] For I am the LORD, I change not;


God Bless,
SBC

Yes, I have seen this verse and the many others, but each and every one must be read in context. For example if I say "I love everyone and I will not change" does this mean from that moment on I will not change in any way? Or does it mean my love for everyone will not change? God is immutably faithful, immutably loving, immutably perfect.

Let's look at Malachi 3:6 for a moment. The God of judgment has not yet punished the wicked. The reader then asks, "Has God changed? The sons of Jacob deserved to be consumed already, why hasn't He?" But on the contrary, the fact they haven't been consumed is proof that God is unchanging in His faithfulness towards them.

It is in these relational ways that God is unchanging. To believe verses like these support the idea that God is unchanging in every possible way is to take them completely out of their contextual purpose. Was Malachi attempting to teach the reader that God is unchanging in every possible way? Or was He teaching the reader that God is unchanging in His faithfulness towards Israel?

 

[SBC]

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. 'Became' signifies change, as in he wasn't flesh before and then he became flesh.

What does that have to do with it? The point is Jesus changed in some way. I'm offering an argument against strong immutability.

Mal 3: [6] For I am the LORD, I change not;

So your argument is Jesus changed in some way....

I disagree -
Jesus taking a prepared body upon Himself, did not change Him, but it did change the circumstances for men, that they could then SEE Him.

Heb 10
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world.. but a body hast thou prepared me:

Phil 2
[6] Who, being in the form of God,

Phil 2
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

If your reputation is a Man, head of the household -
and you set aside your reputation -
and take upon yourself the form of a woman, to relate relate to and be seen as a woman-
Does that make you a woman?
Can you call yourself a woman?
Can others call you a woman?
Does that make you a woman?

Jesus came to earth , without His reputation, in the likeness as a man.
Did you not notice His reputation being revealed?

Did you not notice WHEN men began noticing His reputation?

Did you not notice WHEN men noticed He was the Christ?

Did you not notice WHEN men noticed His Knowledge, Power, Authority, Wisdom, All-knowing, Things obeying by His word be spoken, devil spirits departing, lepers healed,
seas calming. etc.

Yes, men FIRST saw, met, knew, Jesus in the Flesh, and thereafter knew Him in the Spirit.

2 Cor 5
[16] Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

I do not agree the Lord Changes.

I do not believe the Lord became a DOVE, a burning bush, a mist, a cloud, a human, or any other thing that He took upon Himself to be seen by mankind.

And I do believe, one day to have MY eyes Changed, that I can SEE Him, as He is.

1 John 3
[2] Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[SBC]

What was the point of that last post?

Really? Avatar?
I am speaking of the Lord and you wonder should He be compared to an Avatar?

And now you wonder my point?

It was ridiculous, that is my point.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Everybodyknows]

Mal 3: [6] For I am the LORD, I change not;

So your argument is Jesus changed in some way....

I disagree -
Jesus taking a prepared body upon Himself, did not change Him, but it did change the circumstances for men, that they could then SEE Him.

Heb 10
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world.. but a body hast thou prepared me:

Phil 2
[6] Who, being in the form of God,

Phil 2
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

If your reputation is a Man, head of the household -
and you set aside your reputation -
and take upon yourself the form of a woman, to relate relate to and be seen as a woman-
Does that make you a woman?
Can you call yourself a woman?
Can others call you a woman?
Does that make you a woman?

Jesus came to earth , without His reputation, in the likeness as a man.
Did you not notice His reputation being revealed?

Did you not notice WHEN men began noticing His reputation?

Did you not notice WHEN men noticed He was the Christ?

Did you not notice WHEN men noticed His Knowledge, Power, Authority, Wisdom, All-knowing, Things obeying by His word be spoken, devil spirits departing, lepers healed,
seas calming. etc.

Yes, men FIRST saw, met, knew, Jesus in the Flesh, and thereafter knew Him in the Spirit.

2 Cor 5
[16] Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

I do not agree the Lord Changes.

I do not believe the Lord became a DOVE, a burning bush, a mist, a cloud, a human, or any other thing that He took upon Himself to be seen by mankind.

And I do believe, one day to have MY eyes Changed, that I can SEE Him, as He is.

1 John 3
[2] Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

God Bless,
SBC

Well he changed from being alive to being dead. That's for sure.

 

[Everybodyknows]

Really? Avatar?
I am speaking of the Lord and you wonder should He be compared to an Avatar?

And now you wonder my point?

It was ridiculous, that is my point.

God Bless,
SBC

I was referring to #76

 

[SBC]

Yes, I have seen this verse and the many others, but each and every one must be read in context. For example if I say "I love everyone and I will not change" does this mean from that moment on I will not change in any way? Or does it mean my love for everyone will not change? God is immutably faithful, immutably loving, immutably perfect.

Let's look at Malachi 3:6 for a moment. The God of judgment has not yet punished the wicked. The reader then asks, "Has God changed? The sons of Jacob deserved to be consumed already, why hasn't He?" But on the contrary, the fact they haven't been consumed is proof that God is unchanging in His faithfulness towards them.

It is in these relational ways that God is unchanging. To believe verses like these support the idea that God is unchanging in every possible way is to take them completely out of their contextual purpose. Was Malachi attempting to teach the reader that God is unchanging in every possible way? Or was He teaching the reader that God is unchanging in His faithfulness towards Israel?

Let's look at men. They can change their mind. And why do they change their mind?
It is because new knowledge, information, understanding has come to them, thus they consider that new knowledge, information understanding to decide if it is the same or different of what they already believed.

God does not wait for information, knowledge, understanding to be revealed to Him.
He is the Source of those things!

He does not change. Period. TO say otherwise is in contrast to Scripture. To limit God, in what He says, is the created dictating what applies to the Creator.

God declares what applies to Him. He limits Himself, by His own Word and Power.
God can NOT Lie.
God can NOT Change.

Those are His limits He has put on Himself.
Why do you attempt to limit God, above or beyond what He declares for Himself?

Was Malachi attempting to teach the reader that God is unchanging in every possible way?

Mal 3
[6] For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

How does naming anything specific; undo Gods Word, of I change not?
Is God required to give you a list of everything for His word to be True because "I change not", is not sufficient?

To believe verses like these support the idea that God is unchanging in every possible way is to take them completely out of their contextual purpose.

James 1
[17] Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.


I totally disagree with you on this point.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[SBC]

Well he changed from being alive to being dead. That's for sure.

He took upon himself a body, and gave that pure body of flesh and blood unto death for the forgiveness of sin of corrupt mankind and life of the World.

You don't have to recognize, His being the body of God, a Living soul, the Power of God, the Wisdom of God, the Seed of God, the Spirit of God that IS life and gives life., The Word of God, Truth, King of kings, Lord of lords..
The everlasting Living God without beginning or ending.

He can be your fellow Human if that floats your boat.

Heb 10
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb 10
[5] when he cometh into the world... a body hast thou prepared me:

As for me, I accept Him changing me from body prepared.........oops, not prepared....but rather FORMED of dust (like all humans) to spirit, in His likeness, instead of trying to keep Him in the likeness as a human.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[SBC]

I was referring to #76

So now I have to read your mind, that you are not really responding to the post # you are responding to?

Perhaps you have not noticed, we are in more disagreement than agreement, so please don't presume I think like you, or should guess what you mean.

If God were sending you a HUMAN man, why then the explicit language telling you otherwise?

Why was Jesus "in the LIKENESS" of men?
What was His TRUE "likeness"? (oh right Spirit!! and men would not have be able to SEE HIM!)

Why did Jesus require a "prepared" body, instead of a body of dust like every actual human?

Why did Jesus have to "take that formed body" upon Himself?
Do Humans have some OTHER body under their outer body?

Why did Jesus have to "take upon Himself" the seed of Abraham?
Why wasn't Jesus a little SPERM baby out of Abraham's stock?

Why was Jesus revealed to the World out a a VIRGIN woman's womb?

Why did God in Heaven say He would be "A" father to him, and to him, Jesus would be "A" son.
Is that how it works with Humans? Oh my, look, when the boy is born, I guess I'll be "A" father to him and he can be to me "A" son.

When you can learn the mysteries, you might become prepared to understand them.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Marvin Knox]

......... Biblically the only verses you present are showing that Gods Attributes are unchanging, His love Etc.

Including His attributes of omniscience and immutability. I rest my case.

Well he became human at one point. That seems like a pretty major change

Participating in these forums is a lot like a box of chocolates. You never know what you’re gonna to get.

Since you said “he became human” (and YouAreAwesome thought that was a real "winner") – I'll address that in this post.

God did not "become human".

It seems that both of you guy's theology is faulty on quite a few fronts.

What are they putting in the water down there in Oz?

Since you seem to be in this together - you both need to put away the Plato and get your noses back in the scriptures (if you've ever had them in there in the first place).

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Let's look at men. They can change their mind. And why do they change their mind?
It is because new knowledge, information, understanding has come to them, thus they consider that new knowledge, information understanding to decide if it is the same or different of what they already believed.

God does not wait for information, knowledge, understanding to be revealed to Him.
He is the Source of those things!

I'm not sure if you will see why I am asking this, but it is the reason I don't agree with you, do you believe we live in the best possible world?

He does not change. Period. TO say otherwise is in contrast to Scripture. To limit God, in what He says, is the created dictating what applies to the Creator.

God declares what applies to Him. He limits Himself, by His own Word and Power.
God can NOT Lie.
God can NOT Change.

Those are His limits He has put on Himself.
Why do you attempt to limit God, above or beyond what He declares for Himself?

If it's possible to refrain from these kind of "preaches" that don't actually make any new points, that would be appreciated.

Mal 3
[6] For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

How does naming anything specific; undo Gods Word, of I change not?

Do you not read this in context? Or do you pull the words out and place the English meaning on them? Read any commentary on this verse and you will see the "I change not" refers to God honouring his promises to Israel. The way you are interpreting it reminds of how people greet one another, they say "What's up?", do we then look up curiously and answer, "The sky?"

James 1
[17] Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Paraphrase: God gives only good gifts, He is the Father of light, He doesn't give bad gifts sometimes and good gifts other times, He isn't like shadows produced by the sun and moon that shift around.

 

[Everybodyknows]

Including His attributes of omniscience and immutability. I rest my case.


Participating in these forums is a lot like a box of chocolates. You never know what you’re gonna to get.

Since you said “he became human” (and YouAreAwesome thought that was a real "winner") – I'll address that in this post.

God did not "become human".

It seems that both of you guy's theology is faulty on quite a few fronts.

What are they putting in the water down there in Oz?

Since you seem to be in this together - you both need to put away the Plato and get your noses back in the scriptures (if you've ever had them in there in the first place).

So Jesus wasn't a man? Looks like someone else needs to brush up on their theology.

You can tell the people that really know their scripture by the way they just use insults instead of explanation

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Including His attributes of omniscience and immutability. I rest my case.

Well argued.

God did not "become human".

What did He become?

What are they putting in the water down there in Oz?

Your exegesis, I've been spewing it out of my mouth.

 

[Everybodyknows]

He can be your fellow Human if that floats your boat.

He was both divine and human. Before he came to earth he was only divine.

 

[Marvin Knox]

So Jesus wasn't a man? Looks like someone else needs to brush up on their theology.

Who said Jesus wasn't a man?

I said, "God did not become human".

You can tell the people that really know their scripture by the way they just use insults instead of explanation

Exactly. (I assume you meant to say "people that really don't know their scripture".)

You people need to leave off the "prayers" and "funny" mutual back patting and consider exactly what was said.

Well argued.

Thank you. Short and sweet. That's the best way.

What did He become?

He didn't become anything. He always has been, and He always will be, God.

Your exegesis, I've been spewing it out of my mouth.

Before you do that, you might want to savor it for a bit. It will allow you to see and admit your error.

God did not "become human". Another short and sweet "theology 101".

As soon as one of you two admit the mistake and fill the other one in, you can both eat a little theological humble pie and we can move on. (Unless you are permanently joined at the heretical hip.)

 

[Everybodyknows]

Who said Jesus wasn't a man?

I said, "God did not become human"

A non-human man?

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Who said Jesus wasn't a man?

I said, "God did not become human".

Exactly. (I assume you meant to say "people that really don't know their scripture".)

You people need to leave off the "prayers" and "funny" mutual back patting and consider exactly what was said.
Thank you. Short and sweet. That's the best way.

He didn't become anything. He always has been, and He always will be, God.

Before you do that, you might want to savor it for a bit. It will allow you to see and admit your error.

God did not "become human". Another short and sweet "theology 101".

As soon as one of you two admit the mistake and fill the other one in, you can both eat a little theological humble pie and we can move on. (Unless you are permanently joined at the heretical hip.)

@SBC

1. Change refers to at least one difference in all that exists.
2. God is unchanging in all possible ways (strong immutability).
3. In the beginning there was only God. (Genesis 1:1)
4. The devil is not a part of God. (1 John 1:5; Colossians 1:13)
5. At some point in time the devil did not exist. (3, 4)
6. The devil exists. (Matthew 4:5)
7. Existence has changed. (5, 6)
8. God has changed. (3, 7)
God is unchanging and God has changed. (2, 8)
Contradiction.

Please explain to me which premise in this argument is false.

 

[SBC]

I'm not sure if you will see why I am asking this, but it is the reason I don't agree with you, do you believe we live in the best possible world?

God made all of his creations Very Good.
Mankind has corrupted what was Very Good, to Not Good.
So is this corrupt world, the best possibility? No.

However, God has a plan to take what was Very Good, that became Not Good, and make it Holy and Pure.

If it's possible to refrain from these kind of "preaches" that don't actually make any new points, that would be appreciated.

Do you not read this in context? Or do you pull the words out and place the English meaning on them? Read any commentary on this verse and you will see the "I change not" refers to God honouring his promises to Israel. The way you are interpreting it reminds of how people greet one another, they say "What's up?", do we then look up curiously and answer, "The sky?"

How I read is - I first TRUST what Gods SAYS is TRUE - period!
How I read is - points given to a specific thing is for our knowledge about that specific thing.

What you are suggesting is What Gods SAYS is TRUE, only to the LIMIT of the point being made.

Your analogy comparing what God says, to what men DO, and SAY, is irrelevant.
God can not lie. When Gods says, he can not change, that is His Truth being revealed, regardless of a particular point being revealed.

Read any commentary on this verse and you will see the "I change not" refers to God honouring his promises to Israel.

I don't didn't disagree God shall honor his promise to Israel or any other promises He has made.

So, get on to your point in your words or yes or no.

Do you believe "God changes" ?

Paraphrase: God gives only good gifts, He is the Father of light, He doesn't give bad gifts sometimes and good gifts other times, He isn't like shadows produced by the sun and moon that shift around.[/QUOTE]

Not paraphrasing;

Do you believe this? yes or no?

"with whom is no variableness"

God Bless,
SBC

 

[YouAreAwesome]

So is this corrupt world, the best possibility? No.

I agree with you, so if God is never presented with new knowledge then why did He create this world? If He saw everything ahead of time, exactly as it is today, why didn't He make it slightly better? Why did He not make the best possible world? You might answer "He did and we wrecked it!" But our wrecking it was also seen by God. It was all a part of His decision to create it in the first place. It is the main objection to the Free Will Defence and the objection is supported by strong immutability.

How I read is - I first TRUST what Gods SAYS is TRUE - period!
How I read is - points given to a specific thing is for our knowledge about that specific thing.

Do you not think it's a little naive to believe you can interpret the bible correctly on first reading by simply trusting what God says? Surely if it were that simple we would all believe the same thing right? No need for bible studies. No need for seminary. No need for strong concordance. No need for learning the cultural context. It is something to be applauded, the optimism of a simple faith, but we must be aware of the limitations. What are the limitations?

What you are suggesting is What Gods SAYS is TRUE, only to the LIMIT of the point being made.

Yes, exactly. Exegesis. I don't doubt that God can teach us about Himself completely separate to the bible, or that we can gain insights by reading of a verse out of its context, but we must recognise when we are doing this -- it's called Eisegesis -- and we can't use it to justify doctrine, even if we find it personally edifying.

When Gods says, he can not change, that is His Truth being revealed, regardless of a particular point being revealed.

Eisegesis.

Do you believe "God changes" ?

God does not change with regard to: character and promises.
God changes with regard to: the universe, our free-choices, His will/mind (Exodus 32:14; Numbers 14:12–20; Deuteronomy 9:13–14, 18–20, 25; 1 Samuel 2:27–36; 2 Kings 20:1–7; 1 Chronicles 21:15; Jeremiah 26:19; Ezekiel 20:5–22; Amos 7:1–6; Jonah 1:2; 3:2, 4–10 etc.)

 

[Marvin Knox]

A non-human man?

Jesus was fully human.

1. Change refers to at least one difference in all that exists.
2. God is unchanging in all possible ways (strong immutability).
3. In the beginning there was only God. (Genesis 1:1)
4. The devil is not a part of God. (1 John 1:5; Colossians 1:13)
5. At some point in time the devil did not exist. (3, 4)
6. The devil exists. (Matthew 4:5)
7. Existence has changed. (5, 6)
8. God has changed. (3, 7)
God is unchanging and God has changed. (2, 8)
Contradiction.
Please explain to me which premise in this argument is false.

#1 is correct.
#2 is correct.
#3 is correct.
#4 is correct.
#5 is correct.
#6 is correct.
#7 is correct.
#8 is incorrect.

Have you guys been dabbling in the Eastern religions as well as Western philosophy? Are you now adding pantheism to your heretical totem pole?

God is not “existence”.

Existence, as you are calling the creation, came into being by the decree of God - ex nihilo.

God does not change.

Creation has changed many times since coming into being by the original sending forth of God’s Word and it will change again.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

#8 is incorrect.

Ok, so you agree:

1. In the beginning there was only God.
2. Existence has changed.

How do you explain existence changing without God changing?