WHAT is Daniel's Abomination?

[5thKingdom]

I know that this is the eschatology forum, but I'm not discussing eschatology - I'm discussing Scripture.

OK... let's discuss Scripture.
I am glad to have any discussion

In Matt 24:15 Jesus is talking to his 12 disciples, and says "YOU". You have interpreted that "you" to mean "last saints." You say it is self evident, but it is not. When Jesus' disciples heard him say "you" they would have understood that it meant them. Those who read the words some years later may have understood the same thing.

Let's agree to let the Scripture speak for itself:


Mat 24:15
When ye [who is "ye"] therefore shall see the abomination of desolation ["ye" sees the Abomination],
spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand


Now the QUESTION is simple:
WHEN does the Abomination occur?
THEN we will know WHAT Saints Jesus is talking to?


Is He talking to Saints living 2000 years BEFORE the Abomination?
Is He talking to Saints living 1000 years BEFORE the Abomination?
Is He talking to the Saints present that DIE within a few years?


No... the context is very clear.


Jesus is talking to the Saints that "shall see" the fulfillment of the Abomination,
Jesus is talking to the Saints that ARE LIVING at the time of the Abomination...
Jesu is talking to the Last Saints.


This is not hard


Let me give you another example of WHY it's important to understand the CONTEXT of a passage
Before you attempt to offer an "informed opinion" on the matter.
Tell me WHO is the "we" in the passage below



1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We [present Saints or Last Saints?] shall not all sleep, but we [WHO?] shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, [WHEN?] at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,
[WHEN?] and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we [the Last Saints] SHALL BE CHANGED.


Tell me...
was the "WE" in the passage talking about the Saints present,
or the Last Saints that are "changed" without dying?


This is not hard

The words "last saints" does NOT appear in Matt 24.

The words "Last Saint" don't need to be in the text for us to discern WHO is in the passage.
Jesus is talking about the Saints that "shall see" the fulfillment of Great Tribulation events ["signs"]
that could not possibly be Saints living in 30AD or 300AD or 100AD or 1500AD...
that could ONLY be the Last Saints living when the Lord Returns.

This is not hard.

And in any case, every generation could say that they were the last saints.

No, there was not a resurrection in every generation and Jesus Has not Returned yet.
Your comment is nonsensical

"Last saints" is not something that appears in the text.

It does not need to be in the text when the CONTEXT
is Saints living when He Returns.

This is not hard.

Likewise, there is a verse in Daniel which talks about the daily sacrifice ending - and you have interpreted that to refer to the cross.

First, there is NO WAY I ever implied the Abomination was the cross.

Second, there are several passages that show the Daily Sacrifice ending
Those verses were in the OP.
Read carefully.

Either you don't understand, or you don't want to concede, these points.
Either way, I have made them, and I am now leaving the debate.

I have demonstrated above - you made NO points.

And by the way, you apologised for calling me sir, then you did it twice more. Don't worry about it - but just saying.

I am sorry... too many people on the forum
I will make a note now and hopefully that will be that.


/

 

[Jipsah]

LOL

You cannot REFUTE a single word I said with Scripture

I wouildn't be able to "refute" a claim that everyone in Heaven is green, either, but the claim would still be rubbish.

so you pretend that DENIAL is the same... wrong.

And a mere claim doesn't constitute proof. You make the claim, in essence, that your read of prophecy, "your gospel" as you call it, supercedes any previous understanding of those Scriptures based on the claims that "last saints" interpretations are always infallible.

You cannot REFUTE a single word I said with Scripture
so you pretend that DENIAL is the same... wrong

So I presume that if i tell you that the 200,000,000 riders of Revelation are actually riding armed and armored Vincent Black Shadow motorcycles, and since I'm obviously a Last Saint, and since you just as obviously can't refute either of those assertions with even a single line of Scripture (although I'm keen to see you try) , that you must add that factoid to "Your Gospel", n'est-ce pas?

Funny thing about proving a negative, innit? Try as you like, you can't prove that I'm not the rightful heir of the Romanovs and thus the true Czar of all the Russias, or use Scripture to "refute" an assertion that the Star of Bethlehem wasn't a searchlight being carried on an airship.

Those ideas are, of course, arrant hogwash, as is Your hand-wrought Gospel.

See, it's up to you to persuade folks that Your Gospel isn't the biggest sack of fertiizer since the last Flat Earth Youtube vid, and so far you haven't come close to doing that. You just claim that your rubbish has to be believed based on your also unproven authority as a Last Saint or whatever. The really cool thing there is you claim that elevated status based on your infallibility, which can only be discerned if one is an infallible Last Saint. Clever bit there.

The net effect is that your status as an infallible Last Saint has to be taken on your authority as an infallible Last Saint. It's like me saying that I was the World's Greatest Engineer, and as the World's Greatest Engineer I'd know, wouldn't I?

Your doctrine is worthless, and what you term "Your Gospel" is rubbish.

 

[5thKingdom]

Those ideas are, of course, arrant hogwash, as is Your hand-wrought Gospel.

Fine buddy,
then show ONE VERSE of Scripture that contradicts anything I have said.
You cannot do that. And THAT demonstrates everything.

I understand that there is comfort in DENIAL...
enjoy that comfort.

Your doctrine is worthless, and what you term "Your Gospel" is rubbish.

LOL,
You and I teach different Gospels.
There is only ONE TRUE Gospel... there are many false gospels.
This is Christian Theology 101... is it "news" to you?


.

 

[5thKingdom]

You just claim that your rubbish has to be believed based on your also unproven authority as a Last Saint or whatever.

What a dishonest comment.
I never said such a thing.


What I said was clear and it PART of the Gospel.


The Bible PROMISES the TRUTH about the "Time-of-the-End" will be "closed-up" and "sealed"
to all Saints until the Last Saints "shall understand" (and preach) the Truth. [Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10]


This is PART of the Gospel (after Daniel wrote)


You do not have to LIKE that it's PART of the Gospel
And you do not have to ACCEPT that it's PART of the Gospel...
But the Bible PROMISES it is.
Deal with it.


/

 

[Jipsah]

Fine buddy,
then show ONE VERSE of Scripture that contradicts anything I have said.

Sure, as soon as you show me ONE VERSE that refutes my assertion that the 200,000,000 horsemen are riding motorcycles. (They're even wearing team leathers!)

You cannot do that. And THAT demonstrates everything.

"Your Gospel" is rubbish.

You and I teach different Gospels.

That we do. Unfortunately yours is self-serving rubbish.

 

[5thKingdom]

Sure, as soon as you show me one that refutes my assertion that the 200,000,000 horsemen are riding motorcycles. (They're even wearing team leathers!)

You dare to mock the Word of God?


/

 

[Jipsah]

You dare to mock the Word of God?/

Nope, but I'll gleefully mock the rubbish you call "Your Gospel" until the cows come home. Howzat for fair play?

 

[5thKingdom]

Nope, but I'll gleefully mock the rubbish you call "Your Gospel" until the cows come home. Howzat for fair play?

Real Christian-like
.

 

[disciple Clint]

(1) First... there is a process establish 2000 years ago.
A Believer presents a doctrine. The Bible COMMANDS other Believers to search the Scriptures
to either confirm that doctrine (with harmony of ALL RELATED passages) or to refute the doctrine with contradictory passage.


You have done neither.
And you offer a link (not knowing if it offers Biblically valid interpretations)
And that is all you do. The Bible require MUCH more from you...
MUCH more from any "servant" of Christ.


(2) Secondly, the Bible PROMISES the TRUTH about Daniel's Beasts AND the Abomination of Desolation
would remain "closed-up" and "sealed" to all the Saints until the Last Saints "shall understand" (and preach)
the TRUTH during a period named the "Time-of-the-End". [Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10]


This means that EVERY old interpretation of Daniel's Abomination
MUST BE WRONG because it was developed during a period the Bible PROMISES
the Truth would remain "sealed".


It is as simple as that.
Only the Last Saints "shall understand" the Truth about Daniel's Abomination.
That is what the Gospel says (since Daniel wrote)... do you REJECT Daniel 12
to protect your beloved eschatology? You have no BIBLICAL reason to
DENY the Biblically valid understanding of the OP


/

I provided a well accepted scholarly resource, I do not need to be told what my responsibilities are by someone who has absolutely no authority or academic standing. Have a nice day.

 

[5thKingdom]

5thKingdom said:
(1) First... there is a process establish 2000 years ago.
A Believer presents a doctrine. The Bible COMMANDS other Believers to search the Scriptures
to either confirm that doctrine (with harmony of ALL RELATED passages) or to refute the doctrine with contradictory passage.


You have done neither.
And you offer a link (not knowing if it offers Biblically valid interpretations)
And that is all you do. The Bible require MUCH more from you...
MUCH more from any "servant" of Christ.


I provided a well accepted scholarly resource, I do not need to be told what my responsibilities are by someone who has absolutely no authority or academic standing. Have a nice day.


Sir, you have INTENTIONALLY IGNORE the what the Bible COMMANDS believers to do.
If you are comfortable with that sin, I am also.
Have a nice day

.

 

[Zao is life]

WHAT is Daniel's "Abomination of Desolation"?
WHERE does it happen and WHEN does it happen?


I will answer those questions on this post - because
we are told the Last Saints "shall see" this event and
we are told they are SUPPOSED to understand.


Mat 24:15
When ye [Last Saints] therefore SHALL SEE the Abomination of Desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)


This is a different kind of Post
I am going to allow SCRIPTURE to do most of the Talking.


The first Scripture we examine about the Abomination is in Dan 11:31.
Now, throughout this post I will be providing understanding that remained "closed-up" and "sealed"
to all Saints until the Last Saints "shall understand" at the "Time-of-the-End" [Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10]


If someone thinks the "understanding" being shown in the passage is incorrect,
the Bible commands that Believer to search the Scriptures to either CONFIRM the Truth with harmony of Scriptures,
or REFUTE that doctrine by showing contradicting Scriptures. The Bible does not offer the Believer the luxury of simply
DENYING a doctrine without Biblical validation. In other words: Personal "feelings" cannot ever establish Biblical Truth.


Dan 11:31
And ARMS [the Ten "Kings/Horns"] shall stand on HIS [the Little Horn's] part,
and they [BOTH] shall pollute the sanctuary of strength [defile the 4th Kingdom],
and shall take away the daily sacrifice [of His Cross alone], and they shall place
the Abomination that maketh Desolate. [they give their Kingdom to the Beast]


I have presented DOCTRINE about the Abomination...
It would be wise to TEST this understanding with other passages.
Let's look at Daniel 7 & 8 to see whether we can find more information
on Daniel's Abomination:


Dan 8:9
And out of one of them [Ten "Kings/Horns"] came forth a Little Horn [the Anti-Christ], which waxed exceeding great, toward the south,
and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host
[some of the Ten "Kings/Horns"] and of the stars [and the Last Saints] to the ground, and stamped upon them.
[He overcame the Last Saints]


Dan 7:8
I considered the [Ten] Horns, and, behold, there came up among them another Little Horn,
before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: [the Last Saints are "plucked up by the roots"]
and, behold, in this [Little] Horn were eyes like the eyes of man [the Anti-Christ is a man], and a mouth speaking great things.


Dan 8:11
Yea, he [the Little Horn] magnified himself even to the prince of the host, [he showed himself that he was God - 2 Thess]
and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, [faith in the Cross alone ended] and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
[the fourth Kingdom was trodden down]


2Th 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Dan 8:12
And an Host [Ten "Kings/Horns"] was given him [was given TO him] against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression,
[because the Ten "Kings/Horns" sin of not trusting in the Cross alone] and it [the Fourth Beast] cast down the truth to the ground;
and it practised, and prospered. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake,
How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary
and the host to be trodden under foot? [what is the DURATION of the Abomination of Desolation?} And he said unto me,
Unto two thousand and three hundred days; [the Abomination lasts for 2300 literal days "evenings/mornings"]
then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. [then the Last Saints will "see" the Abomination and "flee"]


Mat 24:15
When ye [Last Saints] therefore SHALL SEE the Abomination of Desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)


2Th 2:8
And then [when the Last Saint "shall see" the Abomination] shall that Wicked be revealed,
[the Anti-Christ can be NAMED] whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


So we have seen WHEN the Abomination happens - during Daniel's Fourth Beast/Kingdom
And we have seen WHERE the Abomination happens - within the Ten "Kings/Horns"... representing the "Ten Virgins" of the Great Tribulation...
these are the LAST "wheat and tares", the PEOPLE who are living during the Revelation Beast. And we have seen WHAT the Abomination was...
the Saints abandoning faith in the Cross alone and being RULED by the Anti-Christ as he "sits in the Temple" showing himself to be God...


But the BEST picture of Daniel's Abomination is in Revelation 17:17
In verses 12-13 we see the WHO and WHEN and WHERE... and we see the WHAT
as the Last Saints "shall give their power and strength to the Beast".
THAT is the Abomination of Desolation.


Rev 17:12-13
And the TEN HORNS which thou sawest are TEN KINGS, which have received no kingdom as yet; [when John wrote]
but [they] receive power as kings one hour with the Beast. [during the Fourth Kingdom] These have one mind,
and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.


Then in verse 17 we see the BEST description of Daniel's Abomination
as the Last Saints "give their Kingdom to the Revelation Beast"
THAT is Daniel's Abomination


Rev 17:17
For God hath put in their [the Ten "Kings/Horns/Virgins"] hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree,
and give their Kingdom unto the Beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.


---------------


Daniel's Abomination of Desolation is shown from different perspectives of the Saints being RULED
by the Anti-Christ during Daniel's Fourth Beast (Revelation Beast and Great Tribulation Kingdom)
but the BEST description is the Saints abandon faith in the Blood of Christ alone...
and they then "give their Kingdom to the Beast".


So now we "see" the WHO, WHEN, WHERE, and WHAT
of Daniel's Abomination of Desolation finally revealed.


/

I think you are seeing correctly with regard to the AoD in Matthew 24:15 but I also believe that though you are seeing the final picture scripture has painted, you are seeing it through the stained glass of a number of false assumptions you have made, plus an added unorthodox and non-biblical doctrine regarding the four beasts and (what you call) 'the four kingdoms of heaven'.

Let's concentrate on the fact that I said that I believe that you are seeing the final picture. Definitely the faithful saints of the last days will see an apostasy - and the possibility of that apostasy involving departure from faith in Christ's sacrifice alone is an extremely strong possibility. So I agree with you on that too.

 

[5thKingdom]

5thKingdom said:
WHAT is Daniel's "Abomination of Desolation"?
WHERE does it happen and WHEN does it happen?


I will answer those questions on this post - because
we are told the Last Saints "shall see" this event and
we are told they are SUPPOSED to understand.

I think you are seeing correctly with regard to the AoD in Matthew 24:15 but I also believe that though you are seeing the final picture scripture has painted, you are seeing it through the stained glass of a number of false assumptions you have made,

If you are going to be so bold as to accuse me of making "false assumptions"
then please be so kind as to LIST those assumptions
so I can defend them. Is that fair?

plus an added unorthodox and non-biblical doctrine regarding the four beasts and (what you call) 'the four kingdoms of heaven'.

(1) First, let us be clear:
It is not ME that claims there are four "Kingdoms/Beasts" on earth.
That is PART of the Gospel of the Bible:


Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms,
and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.


(2) Secondly it is not ME that NAMED these "Beasts" as being "Kingdoms of Heaven"... it was JESUS.


Jesus NAMES the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" in Matthew 22:2
Jesus NAMES the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" in Matthew 13, in 7 verses
Jesus NAMES the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" in Matthew 25:1


Now, I understand many people are not aware of this Biblical fact
but it's easy to look-up the passages and see what Jesus NAMED.

The fact that someone is unaware of a Biblical Truth does not negate that Truth.
The fact that YOU are not aware of this Truth does not negate the Truth.

Let's concentrate on the fact that I said that I believe that you are seeing the final picture. Definitely the faithful saints of the last days will see an apostasy - and the possibility of that apostasy involving departure from faith in Christ's sacrifice alone is an extremely strong possibility. So I agree with you on that too.

It is a Biblical fact the Gospel teaches about

(1) Saints living in the Christian Kingdom of the Great Commission BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed" (saved0
(2) Saints living in the Great Tribulation Kingdom (the Revelation Beast) AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed" [Reb 7:1-3]

This is an important distinction to understand as it provides a deeper understanding of the Gospel
and it provides CONTEXT to many passages.


/

 

[Jipsah]

Real Christian-like
.

Thank you!

5thKingdom said:
(1) First... there is a process establish 2000 years ago.
A Believer presents a doctrine. The Bible COMMANDS other Believers to search the Scriptures
to either confirm that doctrine (with harmony of ALL RELATED passages) or to refute the doctrine with contradictory passage.

I notice that even though the 200,000,000 riders on motorcycles thing is intentionally ridiculous, you couldn't dredge up a single verse to refute it. Ergo since you can't refute it, by your own silly "process", you must embrace it as the truth, correct?

Sir, you have INTENTIONALLY IGNORE the what the Bible COMMANDS believers to do.
If you are comfortable with that sin, I am also. Have a nice day.

Please be good enough to cite chapter and verse for that commandment if you'd be so kind. I'd hate to think you were (surely inadvertently) making a false testimony.

 

[Zao is life]

5thKingdom said:
WHAT is Daniel's "Abomination of Desolation"?
WHERE does it happen and WHEN does it happen?


I will answer those questions on this post - because
we are told the Last Saints "shall see" this event and
we are told they are SUPPOSED to understand.

The saints of the day who lived during the abomination of Antiochus IV in the latter days of his kingdom saw the day - it is the type.
The saints who will be alive during the latter days of the Antichrist's kingdom will see the day of the abomination of desolation of the Antichrist - it is the antitype.

(1) First, let us be clear:
It is not ME that claims there are four "Kingdoms/Beasts" on earth.
That is PART of the Gospel of the Bible:

But you have changed its meaning and added to it by your "four kingdoms of heaven" - something that does not exist in the text or in the Bible. Because there is only one God and His Kingdom is not divided into the four human kingdoms mentioned by Daniel in Daniel Chapter 7.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms,
and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

Right - and it was referring to the kingdom of Antiochus IV (the type) but is also referring to the kingdom of the Antichrist (the antitype).

(2) Secondly it is not ME that NAMED these "Beasts" as being "Kingdoms of Heaven"... it was JESUS.

Nonsense. Jesus said no such thing. He made a very clear distinction between the Kingdom of God/heaven and the kingdoms of man (the beasts).

Jesus NAMES the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" in Matthew 22:2
Jesus NAMES the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" in Matthew 13, in 7 verses
Jesus NAMES the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" in Matthew 25:1

That is total unbiblical nonsense. You have added those titles/explanation/meaning. It's yours - your own - not the Bible's. There is no such naming of the kingdoms of fallen man/beast kingdoms in the Bible as "the four kingdoms of heaven" anywhere in scripture.

The fact that someone is unaware of a Biblical Truth does not negate that Truth.
The fact that YOU are not aware of this Truth does not negate the Truth.

The only one negating biblical truth is you yourself, with the things you say, which is a corruption of the unveiling of God written in Daniel and in the Revelation.

 

[DavidPT]

The saints of the day who lived during the abomination of Antiochus IV in the latter days of his kingdom saw the day - it is the type.
The saints who will be alive during the latter days of the Antichrist's kingdom will see the day of the abomination of desolation of the Antichrist - it is the antitype.


But you have changed its meaning and added to it by your "four kingdoms of heaven" - something that does not exist in the text or in the Bible. Because there is only one God and His Kingdom is not divided into the four human kingdoms mentioned by Daniel in Daniel Chapter 7.

Right - and it was referring to the kingdom of Antiochus IV (the type) but is also referring to the kingdom of the Antichrist (the type).

Nonsense. Jesus said no such thing. He made a very clear distinction between the Kingdom of God/heaven and the kingdoms of man (the beasts).

That is total unbiblical nonsense. You have added those titles/explanation/meaning. It's yours - your own - not the Bible's. There is no such naming of the kingdoms of fallen man/beast kingdoms in the Bible as "the four kingdoms of heaven" anywhere in scripture.

The only one negating biblical truth is you yourself, with the things you say, which is a corruption of the unveiling of God written in Daniel and in the Revelation.

What is your view of the first 10 verses in Daniel 12? Do you also see any of that involving A4E? The reason why I ask, speaking for myself, I see nothing pertaining to those 10 verses that leads me to believe that any of it is involving A4E. Which then seems nonsensical to me, to all of a sudden change the context altogether, and bring up something involving A4E though nothing involving the first 10 verses are pertaining to A4E. That's like, in Matthew 24 where the context is involving the 2nd coming in the end of this age, and Preterists then insisting Matthew 24:34 is pertaining to the first century and 70 AD. No it isn't since that is not the context leading up to that verse. And the same can be said of Daniel 12:11-12, that is not involving A4E because that is not the context of the first 10 verses leading up to those 2 verses.

 

[Zao is life]

What is your view of the first 10 verses in Daniel 12? Do you also see any of that involving A4E? The reason why I ask, speaking for myself, I see nothing pertaining to those 10 verses that leads me to believe that any of it is involving A4E. Which then seems nonsensical to me, to all of a sudden change the context altogether, and bring up something involving A4E though nothing involving the first 10 verses are pertaining to A4E. That's like, in Matthew 24 where the context is involving the 2nd coming in the end of this age, and Preterists then insisting Matthew 24:34 is pertaining to the first century and 70 AD. No it isn't since that is not the context leading up to that verse. And the same can be said of Daniel 12:11-12, that is not involving A4E because that is not the context of the first 10 verses leading up to those 2 verses.

Daniel 7:13-14 and Daniel 7:25-28 are speaking about the end of this Age, even though Daniel's 4th beast in chapter 7 is speaking about Antiochus IV.

Unlike what you seem to be convinced of,

I don't believe that Daniel 12:7-10 pertains to the end of this Age (our Age) ONLY.

The scattering of the power of the holy people and only the wise understanding applied just as much to the faithful Jewish remnant during the days of Antiochus IV (the type) as it will (still future tense) to the faithful remnant in Christ (the antitype).

Who saw the following hundreds of years before the rise to power of Antiochus IV?:

5 Then I Daniel looked, and behold, there stood another two, the one on this side, and the one on that side of the bank of the river.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen on the waters of the river: Until when shall be the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was on the waters of the river, when he held up his right and his left hand to Heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half. And when they have made an end of scattering the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, O my lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And He said, Go, Daniel! For the words are closed up and sealed until the end-time.

It was Daniel who saw these things, not John - and Daniel was prophesying long before Antiochus IV came to power, He was seeing these things even before the rise to power of the Greek Empire of Alexander the Great.

Antiochus IV indeed did do the following:

Daniel 7
25 And he (Antiochus IV) shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and plot to change times and laws. And they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and one-half time.

But the antichrist will do the same:

Revelation 13
5 And a mouth speaking great things was given to it, and blasphemies. And authority was given to it to continue forty-two months.

That is why we know that Antiochus IV is the type of the Antichrist. The 1,290 days and 1,335 days in verses Daniel 12:11-12 have to do with extra days being added in a 49 year cycle, enabling the lunar calendar to catch up with the solar calendar (so that the seasons don't become out of synch with the calendar after a some years).

Daniel 12:11-2 is also more than likely returning to speak about the AoD placed in the temple by Antiochus IV and the events that took place then, although these are patterns of type-antitype:

Daniel 7
10 A stream of fire went out and came out from before Him. A thousand thousands served Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 Then I was looking because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke. I watched until the beast was slain, and his body was destroyed and given to the burning flame.
13 I saw in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him.
14 And dominion and glory was given Him, and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations and languages, should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away, and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

The following parts were fulfilled and will be fulfilled again:

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his rulership (done by the Maccabees), to cut off and to destroy until the end.

27 And the kingdom and rulership, and the greatness of the kingdom under all the heavens, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. (The kingdom of God in Judea was given to the saints of the Most High after Antiochus IV was ousted - but still not fulfilled in the way described below):

And all kingdoms shall serve and obey Him.

28 Here is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my thoughts troubled me much, and my face changed on me. But I kept the matter in my heart.

Partly fulfilled but not completely fulfilled in the time of Antiochus IV:

Daniel 12
1 And at that time Michael shall stand up, the great ruler who stands for the sons of your people (God helping the Maccabees).

And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation; until that time (indeed the time of Antiochus IV was).

And at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book (the faithful Jewish remnant who were delivered from the hand of Antiochus IV).

The verse below is true of the time of Antiochus IV also:

3 And those who are wise shall shine as the brightness of the sky; and those who turn many to righteousness shall shine as the stars forever and ever.

All mentioned in the above verses will be fulfilled AGAIN when the Antichrist has risen from the abyss - but the verse below has never been fulfilled and is still to be fulfilled:

2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The rest is likewise partly fulfilled, and is going to be fulfilled again:

8 And I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, O my lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And He said, Go, Daniel! For the words are closed up and sealed until the end-time.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried. But the wicked shall do wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand. (happened during the time of Antiochus IV also).

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the desolating abomination set up, a thousand two hundred and ninety days shall occur.
12 Blessed is he who waits and comes to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.
13 But you go on to the end, for you shall rest and stand in your lot at the end of the days.

"This generation"

I don't understand why "this generation" in Matthew chapters 23 and 24 cannot be referring to both generations being spoken about in the Olivet Discourse - the 70 A.D generation, and the generation that will see the return of Jesus.

"This generation" in Matthew 23 is referring to the unfaithful scribes and Pharisees (maybe not the same who were alive 40 years later - but it was referring to that 70 A.D generation). They are the example and type of the unfaithful Christian leaders who will be part of the Babylon the Great/kings of the earth fornication/apostasy.

"This generation" depends on the context of what is being spoken about in the surrounding verses: The destruction of the Jerusalem temple? Or the return of Christ?

This generation of Christians (our generation) has a hard time understanding things regarding types and antitypes that should have been understood by all saints within the first year of their Christian walk.

I also never understood why Daniel's fourth beast would be destroyed by Christ and the kingdom given to the saints until it dawned on me that Antiochus IV is a type of the Antichrist.

So is Pharaoh. Waters being turned to blood, and plagues of locusts being brought upon Egypt by God's two witnesses, Moses and Aaron, and the saints suffering tribulation under the hand of Pharaoh - and the judgment of Pharaoh/the beast's armies occurring the same day as the deliverance of the saints, when they crossed the Red Sea.

Pharaoh is a type. The beast of the Revelation is the antitype. We can't take everything Pharaoh did and say "it never happened and will only happen at the end of this Age before the return of Christ". There are other types also. Yet we want Danie's fourth beast to be all about the beast of the end of this Age, and not at all about the type which preceded him - i.e Antiochus IV, "Epiphanes".

 

[5thKingdom]

5thKingdom said:
Sir, you have INTENTIONALLY IGNORE the what the Bible COMMANDS believers to do.

Please be good enough to cite chapter and verse for that commandment if you'd be so kind. I'd hate to think you were (surely inadvertently) making a false testimony.

If I provide both chapter and verse
will you SUBMIT to Scripture and follow the process?

Or will you continue to intentionally ignore Biblical commands
and even MOCK the Word of God?

How do you expect me to take you seriously?

Jim

 

[Jipsah]

5thKingdom said:
Sir, you have INTENTIONALLY IGNORE the what the Bible COMMANDS believers to do.

First false testimony right there. That didn't take long.

If I provide both chapter and verse
will you SUBMIT to Scripture and follow the process?

I always try to follow Scripture. But you have a propensity for deciding what Scipture "means" and calling that the Scripture, and of course I consider the "meanings" you contrive to be the worst kind of self-serving balderdash. So will I submit to actual Scripture? Absolutely. Will I submit to your interpretation thereof? Fat chance; I've seen your creative exegesis at work.

Or will you continue to intentionally ignore Biblical commands
and even MOCK the Word of God?

Second false testimony; you're on a roll! I mocked your rubbish doctrine, and will continue to do so. It deserves nothing else, and equating it to the actual Word of God is well-nigh blasphemous. ("Your gospel" indeed!)

Anyway, I didn't expect a Scriptual citation from you in any case, and I did expect what I received - blowing, posturing, and endless mendacity.

How do you expect me to take you seriously?

I couldn't possibly care any less about how you "take" me.

You may want to more carefully consider why all those emminent theologians with whom you claim to have shared "Your gospel" have responded to it in the same way they'd likely respond to the receipt of the ravings of a madman.

 

[DavidPT]

Daniel 7:13-14 and Daniel 7:25-28 are speaking about the end of this Age, even though Daniel's 4th beast in chapter 7 is speaking about Antiochus IV.

Unlike what you seem to be convinced of,

I don't believe that Daniel 12:7-10 pertains to the end of this Age (our Age) ONLY.

The scattering of the power of the holy people and only the wise understanding applied just as much to the faithful Jewish remnant during the days of Antiochus IV (the type) as it will (still future tense) to the faithful remnant in Christ (the antitype).

Who saw the following hundreds of years before the rise to power of Antiochus IV?:

5 Then I Daniel looked, and behold, there stood another two, the one on this side, and the one on that side of the bank of the river.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen on the waters of the river: Until when shall be the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was on the waters of the river, when he held up his right and his left hand to Heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half. And when they have made an end of scattering the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, O my lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And He said, Go, Daniel! For the words are closed up and sealed until the end-time.

It was Daniel who saw these things, not John - and Daniel was prophesying long before Antiochus IV came to power, He was seeing these things even before the rise to power of the Greek Empire of Alexander the Great.

Antiochus IV indeed did do the following:

Daniel 7
25 And he (Antiochus IV) shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and plot to change times and laws. And they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and one-half time.

But the antichrist will do the same:

Revelation 13
5 And a mouth speaking great things was given to it, and blasphemies. And authority was given to it to continue forty-two months.

That is why we know that Antiochus IV is the type of the Antichrist. The 1,290 days and 1,335 days in verses Daniel 12:11-12 have to do with extra days being added in a 49 year cycle, enabling the lunar calendar to catch up with the solar calendar (so that the seasons don't become out of synch with the calendar after a some years).

Daniel 12:11-2 is also more than likely returning to speak about the AoD placed in the temple by Antiochus IV and the events that took place then, although these are patterns of type-antitype:

Daniel 7
10 A stream of fire went out and came out from before Him. A thousand thousands served Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 Then I was looking because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke. I watched until the beast was slain, and his body was destroyed and given to the burning flame.
13 I saw in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him.
14 And dominion and glory was given Him, and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations and languages, should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away, and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

The following parts were fulfilled and will be fulfilled again:

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his rulership (done by the Maccabees), to cut off and to destroy until the end.

27 And the kingdom and rulership, and the greatness of the kingdom under all the heavens, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. (The kingdom of God in Judea was given to the saints of the Most High after Antiochus IV was ousted - but still not fulfilled in the way described below):

And all kingdoms shall serve and obey Him.

28 Here is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my thoughts troubled me much, and my face changed on me. But I kept the matter in my heart.

Partly fulfilled but not completely fulfilled in the time of Antiochus IV:

Daniel 12
1 And at that time Michael shall stand up, the great ruler who stands for the sons of your people (God helping the Maccabees).

And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation; until that time (indeed the time of Antiochus IV was).

And at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book (the faithful Jewish remnant who were delivered from the hand of Antiochus IV).

The verse below is true of the time of Antiochus IV also:

3 And those who are wise shall shine as the brightness of the sky; and those who turn many to righteousness shall shine as the stars forever and ever.

All mentioned in the above verses will be fulfilled AGAIN when the Antichrist has risen from the abyss - but the verse below has never been fulfilled and is still to be fulfilled:

2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The rest is likewise partly fulfilled, and is going to be fulfilled again:

8 And I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, O my lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And He said, Go, Daniel! For the words are closed up and sealed until the end-time.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried. But the wicked shall do wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand. (happened during the time of Antiochus IV also).

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the desolating abomination set up, a thousand two hundred and ninety days shall occur.
12 Blessed is he who waits and comes to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.
13 But you go on to the end, for you shall rest and stand in your lot at the end of the days.

"This generation"

I don't understand why "this generation" in Matthew chapters 23 and 24 cannot be referring to both generations being spoken about in the Olivet Discourse - the 70 A.D generation, and the generation that will see the return of Jesus.

"This generation" in Matthew 23 is referring to the unfaithful scribes and Pharisees (maybe not the same who were alive 40 years later - but it was referring to that 70 A.D generation). They are the example and type of the unfaithful Christian leaders who will be part of the Babylon the Great/kings of the earth fornication/apostasy.

"This generation" depends on the context of what is being spoken about in the surrounding verses: The destruction of the Jerusalem temple? Or the return of Christ?

This generation of Christians (our generation) has a hard time understanding things regarding types and antitypes that should have been understood by all saints within the first year of their Christian walk.

I also never understood why Daniel's fourth beast would be destroyed by Christ and the kingdom given to the saints until it dawned on me that Antiochus IV is a type of the Antichrist.

So is Pharaoh. Waters being turned to blood, and plagues of locusts being brought upon Egypt by God's two witnesses, Moses and Aaron, and the saints suffering tribulation under the hand of Pharaoh - and the judgment of Pharaoh/the beast's armies occurring the same day as the deliverance of the saints, when they crossed the Red Sea.

Pharaoh is a type. The beast of the Revelation is the antitype. We can't take everything Pharaoh did and say "it never happened and will only happen at the end of this Age before the return of Christ". There are other types also. Yet we want Danie's fourth beast to be all about the beast of the end of this Age, and not at all about the type which preceded him - i.e Antiochus IV, "Epiphanes".

The way you are understanding these things over all, what is that called? Is it called dual fulfillment, or perhaps something else? I would like to look into it further, that even though I have heard of dual fulfillment, assuming that is what you are meaning, I never bothered researching in depth what all that might be involving. In order to grasp where you are coming from, in the event you are correct about some or all of these things, I need look into why this allegedly makes sense of the texts involved.

I do get the part about types and anti-types, I just don't get the part about why A4E would allegedly be this significant in the book of Daniel when the Bible never bothers mentioning Antiochus by name one single time. And I don't get why, in the book of Daniel, assuming you are correct about some or all of these things, that beginning from ch 7 through ch 12, that a time prior to the first coming would be more relevant than a time after the 1st coming? Past history, meaning before the first coming, would be necessary to show how that develops into future history. But, for the majority of it be focusing on past history, such as much of Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 11, and some of Daniel 12, mainly involving the days of A4E, makes little sense to me.

 

[Zao is life]

The way you are understanding these things over all, what is that called? Is it called dual fulfillment, or perhaps something else? I would like to look into it further, that even though I have heard of dual fulfillment, assuming that is what you are meaning, I never bothered researching in depth what all that might be involving. In order to grasp where you are coming from, in the event you are correct about some or all of these things, I need look into why this allegedly makes sense of the texts involved.

Yes. Dual fulfillment. But the 2nd is never exactly the same as the first in actual details, for example the image of the beast in Daniel 3 and the image of the beast in Revelation 13. It's not going to be the same image of the same person the second time around.

The Bible has many dual fulfillments. Here's one of the "smallest", the least known, and yet the very biggest in terms of its significance:

Isaiah 7:8-20 is a prophecy about the coming destruction of the Northern kingdom of Israel (the 10 Northern tribes), and the sign that God gave to king Ahaz, king of Judah (the Southern kingdom), that what was prophesied would indeed come to pass, was the sign given in Isaiah 7:14.

That very prophecy was quoted in Matthew 1:22-23 as referring to Jesus - but it had already been fulfilled in the days of Ahaz, the king of Judah, when the prophetess conceived by the prophet Isaiah, and gave birth to a son. Isaiah's son was also given a second name: Maher-shalal-hash-baz ("Make Haste to Plunder! Hasten to the Prey!") (Isaiah 8:3-4).

So Isaiah's son was called both Immanuel, and Maher-shalal-hash-baz, meaning that though the Northern kingdom of Israel had plotted with the Assyrian king to attack Judah and Jerusalem, God was with Judah, and the plan would not come to pass - instead, upon the Northern kingdom (the 10 Northern tribes) the prophetic words "Maher-shalal-hash-baz" came to pass, as prophesied.

So Judah was saved. And Jesus was called both Jesus because He would save His people from their sins, and Immanuel, meaning, "God with us".

It's not the same person and not the same details surrounding the fulfillment of the prophecy when the prophecy is fulfilled a second time.

Unbelieving Jewish Rabbis make a big deal even today about this prophecy, claiming that it "does not apply to Jesus", because of the son whom it applied to in its Old Testament context.

Yet unbelieving Jewish Rabbis most certainly understand the principle of dual fulfillment of biblical prophecy wherever it suits their position.

Take a look at the prophecies surrounding the destruction of Babylon and see how many of them are repeated almost word-for-word in the prophecy surrounding the judgment of Babylon the Great in the Revelation - it's not as though the judgment of Babylon did not come, and did not happen. In their Old Testament context those prophecies were not about Babylon the Great or the beast of the Revelation. Yet there is another fulfillment to come. I can list the prophetic statements for you but this post is already too long.

I do get the part about types and anti-types, I just don't get the part about why A4E would allegedly be this significant in the book of Daniel when the Bible never bothers mentioning Antiochus by name one single time.

The Bible has not bothered to mention the man of sin/son of perdition/beast ascended from the abyss/8th king by name one single time.

But we will know it was he who was prophesied about when he has appeared - and then we will know his name.

One of the things that will help us to identify him is the fact that 2 Thessalonians 2 calls him the son of perdition (like Judas Iscariot had been called), so he will probably be from among us Christians, and probably a prominent leader, like Judas was.

The other thing that will help us to identify him is the fact that as Daniel prophesied, he will do exactly the same sort of things that Antiochus IV did - make war against the saints, and ban our religious worship, and attempt to force us to worship an image in the temple instead of Christ - and that is what Daniel prophesied that both Antiochus IV will do, and the Antichrist will do.

.. because there will be a dual fulfillment of the prophecies that surrounded (past tense) Antiochus IV. Not the same person, and not exactly the same details (those nations A4E fought wars with do not exist as the same nations i.e ethnic peoples anymore after over two thousand of years of human migration and inter-marrying of people groups). So not the same person, and not exactly the same details the second time around.

And I don't get why, in the book of Daniel, assuming you are correct about some or all of these things, that beginning from ch 7 through ch 12, that a time prior to the first coming would be more relevant than a time after the 1st coming? Past history, meaning before the first coming, would be necessary to show how that develops into future history. But, for the majority of it be focusing on past history, such as much of Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 11, and some of Daniel 12, mainly involving the days of A4E, makes little sense to me.

It's the same as Joseph had been betrayed by his brothers for 20 pieces of silver, and Jesus for 30 pieces.
Joseph was hated because of the exalted position he would receive over them, and the cloak which showed he was highly favored of his father, etc etc.

What I'm trying to show with the above is that the type helps us to be able to identify the antitype. The type is not more important than the antitype - but if we do not understand the type, then we will probably fail to correctly identify the antitype:

"All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness". 2 Timothy 3:16

ALL scripture - not just the law and commandments, and not just the wisdom literature, and not just the prophecy about things that have not yet come. The history is just as important because it is full of types, foreshadows of the things that are to come. It helps us to understand what is coming.

There is a saying among the Rabbis: "(Biblical) History is Prophecy".

It's true. But why oh why should unbelieving Rabbis have more understanding about that specific fact - or any fact - than us?

You've misunderstood if you think that we're harping on the type in A4E as though what was prophesied about him, and was fulfilled back then, is more important that what it foreshadows. But we need to know what happened then because it helps is to identify the one to come (who the Bible "has not bothered to name by name" either).

@DavidPT I'm adding again. I hope you have the patience.

Remember that the beast ascending out of the abyss existed once, no longer existed when John received the Revelation, and yet will be seen again. That's enough reason to look at the type, isn't it?

I've seen some YouTube videos of late of people who believe that it will be A4E coming up out of the abyss, which of course is bizarre - and it shows once again that the only way we can understand Revelation 17:8 and Revelation 17:11 is to understand that one of those five previous kings/kingdoms is the type of the final one.

So which one of the five is it of whom it can be said that it "was, is not, and yet is"? Well Revelation 13:2 sure gives us a clue: like a leopard (its body), and its feet like those of a bear, and its mouth like the mouth of a lion.

The body is of the Greek kingdom, but it also has the characteristics of the Babylonian and Medo-Persian empires that came before the Greek kingdom.

The Greek kingdom itself consisted of 5 kings:

1. Alexander the Great (Greek Empire); followed by the four kingdoms that the Greek kingdom broke up into following Alexander's death.

Two of the four kingdoms (the Ptomeaic Egyptian king of the South, and the Seleucid king of the North) became the most powerful, and there was an ongoing power-struggle going on between them for many years.

Antiochus IV became king of the North (the Seleucid kingdom/empire), and wound up fulfilling almost every detail of Daniel's prophecy in chapters 8 and 11, also fighting battles against the king of the South (the Ptolemaic Egyptian kingdom and its king/s) - though Antiochus IV was not named by name in Daniel's prophecy any more than the Antichrist has been named by name by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2, or by Jesus in His Revelation.

Who is the king that existed but no longer existed by the time John received the Revelation? The one who will ascend from out of the abyss? I'm not asking you to answer. I asked the question so that you can understand why we need to understand the type in A4E.