The only place I have found the word veneration so far is under one word bow used 4 times in the NT which is to an image of baal
Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed 2578 the knee to the image of Baal.
kamptō
1) to bend, bow, the knee (the knees)
a) to one
1) in honour of one
2) in religious veneration
b) used of worshippers
2) to bow one's self
But we don't venerate Baal, so your argument is invalid.
There is a lot of confusion about the Second Commandment. It is a sin to make a graven image and worship it, but it is not a sin to make an icon and worship (or venerate if icon is not Jesus) what it represents.
What argument is there presenting information on veneration?
In Christ dwelled the fulness of the Godhead bodily, even the NT says the Godhead is not likened to silver, gold, stone, or wood.
Even that which represented Christ, as the brazen serpent lifted up, an image (some call icon) was commanded to be made of Moses by God himself, and Hezekiah destroyed it because the people started burning incence to it, and God said he did what was right in His eyes.
And God commanded that one be made
Invalid example. Obviously venerating a snake is sinful.
Figures of the tue, and yet nothing in cement is true
They are just what mens hands make them and others bow to them, as if they are something more then just cement or brass (or whatever material the craftsmen choses to make his image with)
Whether they have two legs, four legs, wings, or whether God Himself ordered it made having no legs (at all).
Some folks cant resist bowing and kissing cement stuff chiseled into whatever fashion it is, but its just stuff made by the hands of human beings.
Deaf mute statues which cant see or hear
The Icons are not the ones listening. The prototypes are. Example: Icon of Christ. He is always listening. The Icon simply gives us a focusing point on the Christ.
Ofcourse He is always seeing and listening, though I find images a hinderance, given Christ is in us, why would I want to stare at an image made by some man (outside of me) to make me know Christ in me?
The reason the world cannot receive him is because it SEETH Him NOT, and a erecting a cement figure cant possibly help to contemplate Christ IN YOU when staring at some thing (of him) OUTSIDE of you.
Makes no sense to me.
Though I heard buddists do similar, they dont believe the god is in the cement or something but the gods or whatever hears dont they?
I do have to take a look how other religions perceive their concrete dieties
Because, despite what we know intellectually to be true, it is much easier to forget that that we would like to think in our practical life. Christianity is not mind and heart alone. It is mind, heart, and all five senses involved in a faith that encompasses everything.
Besides, what is more beneficial, an icon of a random preacher who is still alive and may one day fall, or an icon of the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and the Saints who remind us in their Icons that we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses.
We know by the Spirit that indwells us not intellectually, concrete figures are not Spirit as God is, His Spirit bears witness with our spirit, I couldnt know Christ by a concrete figure some craftsman made with his hands.
If anything they just look like foreign objects, but other religions I heard use concrete figures of their gods also, so I understand its a common thing among a variety of religions of bonding with their gods that way or something similar.
Was a former catholic, and so I am quite familar with all the cement figures and debates, and they are getting as old as Mary topics. Just posting to the word veneration (which is often used) and a comparison I found in John of Damascus
In Him was the fulness of the Godhead bodily, I dont see how the Godhead is likened to whats fashioned by the hands of craftmen, besides Jesus showed up in another form to them, and theres as many Jesus figures made as stars, and if one were picked out of a police line up the rest would be sent home.
They are just of mens chiselings and paint brushes
Not interested in knowing Christ after the flesh (outwardly) but by the Spirit (inwardly). Cement just doesnt do anything for me.
Though it fills the void for others needing it.
Am Orthodox, formerly Baptist. They are not just men's chiselings. Also, refusing to know a physical man according to His physical and spiritual reality is the gnostic teaching. Wasn't that railed against by Paul?
Christ became man. Therefore He could be depicted.
Luke, the Apostle, depicted Him with His mother.
The Icons are seen from the earliest times.
1+1+1=3
If it was good enough for the Apostles, then it is good enough for me.
If it isn't good enough for you, then what makes you so much better or wiser than the Apostles?
The artworks are just chiselings and paintstrokes of men, unless you believe God came down and either chiseled them or painted them himself now?
I dont believe this verse is gnostic
2Cr 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh,yet now henceforth know we him no more.
We know by the Spirit that indwells us. But making cement figures of gods has been around for ever.
The Godhead is not likened to graven art of mens device, but Im not interested in knowing Jesus after the paintjob some man fashioned of Him, how can I? The Spirit of Christ indwells me, I know and commune with Him inwardly, no cement figure is going to help me know or worship God in the Spirit He gave me.
Its just mans best attempt to paint or chisel his flesh up (to know him by), when henceforth know we him no more.
Your analogies were really easy to understand - thank you for putting the cookies on the lower shelf!
So why did Luke make the original of this:
I know tradition speaks of Luke the doctor who never having seen Christ as a child (having some kind of insight into what Jesus looked like then) made a couple of icons, but who am I to say against what anothers tradition says?
I dont put much merit on those things or alot of what tradition says anyway.
I still wont kiss or kneel before what a man made with his hands, whether it sits flat or whether its meticulously chiseled out. Cant know anymore then the thing is cold, weighs a ton, or anything more then what skin color of Christ (as painted) by men is (anyway).
Can know more of His beauty by His Spirit indwelling then concrete and paint.
Still doesnt make that verse gnostic to henceforth know Christ no more after the flesh.
Although to be fair, he doesnt say we know not Christ after the paintjob, so perhaps knowing him after a painted canvas or cement figurine, that could be a convenient loophole?
Could very well be to some.
I'm just not interested, they are just the works of mens hands. I am not to be falling before the sun moon and stars (the work of Gods hands) why would I even consider to kneel before the way lesser of things men have made of wood, stone, cement or the like?
Though some folks are comforted by concrete images, they always creeped me out (even as a child) when I was a catholic as I have shared before. Even the flat art (to me) is creepy looking, it has no appeal to me.
II Thessalonians 2:15
Hold to the Traditions which we have given you, both in word [speech], and in our epistle.
If you don't put stock in Apostolic Tradition, then you don't put stock in Paul's command
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