What is a free mason?? /need advice?

[Rev Wayne]

Thaddeus,

Did you even consider that it might be the pagan god since it's in the Bible?

Why should I even bother with that issue at all? It obviously has nothing to do with the word we're discussing. The ritualist made it abundantly obvious what he was speaking of.

I will ask you again, do you know any Hebrew at all? Do you have a Hebrew concordance to look this up and verify it for yourself, since you obviously refuse to take either my investigative results or the word of the ritualist himself? Do you at least have Strong's Concordance? If so, look up the numbers I provided, 202 and 203, you will find the truth of what I say. And I say nothing of my own volition, simply run down the word and its meaning by taking the ritualist at his word, looking up strength in the concordance and run down the numbers of the various words in Hebrew that translate into "strength" in English, and lo and behold, I find one used a dozen times which is transliterated as "on" in English. That being the case, when all is verified accordingly, why should I suddenly reject everything my eyes and my understanding reveal to me, and join you out on your limb?

The references containing this Hebrew word are:

Gen. 49:3, Deu. 21:17, Job 18:7 & 12, 20:10, 40:16, Psa. 78:51 & 105:36, Isa. 40:26 & 29, Hosea 12:3 & 8.

We can agree on the Egyptian part.
So we can see that "On" is in fact a city. On in Egyptian means light or sun

I don't see that we're in agreement at all. I have never denied that On refers to a city in Egypt. But my Hebrew concordance and my Strong's both deal with the two separately, and my sources say that in spite of the identical spelling in Hebrew, the two developed independently of each other--in other words, the little-letter "on" for "strength" and the capital-letter "On" for the city have absolutely no relation to one another by derivation or otherwise. When I spoke of the uncertainty of it having come from the Egyptian, I believe I was fairly clear in speaking only of "on" and not "On." And perhaps I was a bit unclear in the mention of Osiris--the uncertainty I expressed there was not uncertainty about the origin of the city's name, but uncertainty that Osiris was indeed that origin.

The battle for determining meaning was won for us from the outset by the author of the ritual himself. I do not know Egyptian and would not have a clue how to go about trying to determine the Egyptian origins of the name of the city On. But the fact is, I do not need to, you have made it clear what the meaning of the city's name is, "city of the sun." That contrasts sharply with the meaning the ritualist has offered, "father of all." Obviously he referred to a different word and meaning. I will leave that for someone skilled in Egyptian. All I need to know is, the author of the ritual stated himself, "it is also a Hebrew word," and the meaning he gives it is "strength." And I do know Hebrew, or at least know it well enough to know that the Scripture in the original Hebrew backs him up all the way. You seem to be in denial (not to be confused with "de Nile").

I still have issues with "bul,"

So do I, especially the four-letter kind--which there seems to be an abundance of when it comes to this word and the ritual it appears in. I don't aim that comment at you in any way, just noting the nature of the false suppositions that have given rise to your arguments and those of many others.

Wayne

 

[Plan 9]

Bill do you know about the "cleopatra's Needle" of Thames Embankment?


If so, what do you know about it?

Thad, there's another ancient Egyptian obelisk in NYC, also known as Cleopatra's Needle. The same Egyptian ruler sent one to each country as gifts in 1878.

I'm assuming that you are asking Bill about some deeper meaning, so that this bit of trivia is okay to post?

 

[Thaddeus]

Rev Wayne at what church do you preach?

 

[Thaddeus]

Strong's Dictionary
#202 says
probably from the same as ''aven' (205) (in the sense of effort, but successful); ability, power, (figuratively) wealth:--force, goods, might, strength, substance.

Looky there. Aven, that's the word I said.

so I look up #205

from an unused root perhaps meaning properly, to pant (hence, to exert oneself, usually in vain; to come to naught); strictly nothingness; also trouble. vanity, wickedness; specifically an idol:--affliction, evil, false, idol, iniquity, mischief, mourners(-ing), naught, sorrow, unjust, unrighteous, vain ,vanity, wicked(-ness). Compare ''ayin' (369).

so I look up 369

as if from a primitive root meaning to be nothing or not exist; a non-entity; generally used as a negative particle:--else, except, fail, (father-)less, be gone, in(-curable), neither, never, no (where), none, nor, (any, thing), not, nothing, to nought, past, un(-searchable), well-nigh, without. Compare ''aiyn' (370).

Can you explain how you've come up with the exact opposite definition?

 

[Thaddeus]

Thad, there's another ancient Egyptian obelisk in NYC, also known as Cleopatra's Needle. The same Egyptian ruler sent one to each country as gifts in 1878.

Thanks, I guess the Washington Monument is one as well.

 

[Thaddeus]

Thaddeus,

The “name” of Jahbulon that you mention is from the Royal Arch ritual. The three separate parts of the word, Jah, Bul (or Bel, or Baal), and On, are words with distinct meaning in reference to attributes of God. Much has been made of these words being names of God in other languages, but that is a falsehood that can be exposed from the wording of the ritual itself. The portion that covers these words is as follows:

In this post you yourself capitalized On.

 

[Thaddeus]

Eastons dictionary
Aven

Nothingness; vanity.

1. Hosea speaks of the "high places of Aven" (Hos. 10:8), by which he means Bethel. He also calls it Beth-aven, i.e., "the house of vanity" (4:15), on account of the golden calves Jeroboam had set up there (1 Ki. 12:28).
2. Translated by the LXX. "On" in Ezek. 30:17. The Egyptian Heliopolis or city of On (q.v.).
3. In Amos 1:5 it denotes the Syrian Heliopolis, the modern Baalbec.

 

[Thaddeus]

Smiths Bible Dictionary http://www.studylight.org/dic/sbd/view.cgi?number=T3259
ON
(abode or city of the sun ), a town of lower Egypt, called BETH-SHEMESH in (Jeremiah 43:13) On is better known under its Greek name Heliopolis. It was situated on the east side of the Pelusiac branch of the Nile, just below the point of the Delta, and about twenty miles northeast of Memphis. The chief object of worship at Heliopolis was the sun, whose temple, described by Strabo, is now only represented by the single beautiful obelisk, of red granite so feet 2 inches high above the pedestal which has stood for more than 4000 years, having been erected by Usirtesen, the second king of the twelfth dynasty. Heliopolis was anciently famous for its learning, and Eudoxus and Plato studied under its priests. The first mention of this place in the Bible is in the history of Joseph, to whom we read Pharaoh gave "to wife Asenath the daughter of Potipherah priest of On." (Genesis 41:45) comp. ver, Genesis41:60 and Genesis46:20 (On is to be remembered not only as the home of Joseph, but as the traditional place to which his far-off namesake took Mary and the babe Jesus in the flight to Egypt. The two famous obelisks, long called "Cleopatra’s Needles," one of which now stands in London and the other in Central Park in New York city, once stood before this city, and were seen by the children of Israel before the exodus, having been quarried at Syene on the Nile, erected at On (Heliopolis) by Thothmes III., B.C. 1500, and inscriptions added by Rameses II. (Sesostris) two hundred years later. They were taken to Alexandria by Augustus Caesar A.D. 23, from which they were removed to their present places. --ED.)

 

[billmcelligott]

Bill do you know about the "cleopatra's Needle" of Thames Embankment?


If so, what do you know about it?

Its a tall piece of concrete. Vistorian era I beleive.

Did you know there are a number of Statue of Liberty's. They are French but sometimes they send them off to be placed in other countries museums.

And you have one.

 

[billmcelligott]

I found out some more, Is there a Masonic connection I do not know about ?

http://www.akhet.co.uk/cleo.htm




http://www.travellondon.com/templates/attractions/cleopatra.html

 

[Thaddeus]

I found out some more, Is there a Masonic connection I do not know about ?

LoL I guess you're getting to know me, see my last post.

Are you a Royal Arch Mason?

 

[Plan 9]

I found out some more, Is there a Masonic connection I do not know about ?

http://www.akhet.co.uk/cleo.htm




<a href="http://www.travellondon.com/templates/attractions/cleopatra.html">[url]http://www.travellondon.com/templates/attractions/cleopatra.html[/url]</a>

Thanks for the links, Bill! They're great!

Obelisks are very common in Egypt, particularly ones of about this period. When Hatchepsut and Thutmose III were co-rulers, they had quite an "obelisk war". The main purpose of most obelisks was to tout the acccomplisments of the various Pharohs. It would once have been harder to find an Egyptian city which didn't have one of their competing obelisks nearby than to find one which did.
Neither "Cleopatra's Needle" has anything whatsoever to do with Cleopatra, who didn't come along until much, much later (approximately 69-30 B.C.) and was actually a Ptolemy.

 

[Plan 9]

Did you know there are a number of Statue of Liberty's. They are French but sometimes they send them off to be placed in other countries museums.

Do you think the French want our Statue of Liberty back right now (along with their record albums)?

 

[eliseb]

I found a website that refers to the origins of Freemasonry and explains ALOT . This is a huge website , very interesting, explaining Egyptian Gods, heiroglyphics which are found on the Masonic temple in Australia, astrology , astronomy , and the meaning of the new ages, Virgin births, Baal, and the coming new age(new age religeon?) which is suppose to be December 21st 2012 or something like that. It goes on to explain its place in the U.S.
I have asked for 3 weeks what Masons study in their temples or lodges and have never got an answer it is all based of Old Egypt. There are alot of predictions for the future in heiroglyphics based off of astronomy, ect. All kinds of secrets and mysteries. something about the temple of Jerusalem.I suppose this is where the idea of "degrees" came from(study of astronomy and astrology). Jesus is recognized in a new birth and rising son is symbolic of his resurrection. Eygytions believe in many virgin births it seems that are just like Jesus. And have two names for Jesus? 2 God's and 2 like Jesus.Kind of all confusing just like the answers or avoidance of answers here.
ttp://ancientegypt.hypermart.net/freemasonry/index.htm
(Maybe those 3rd degrees know some old egyption spells or something??ha!

 

[Plan 9]

It is all based of Old Egypt. There are alot of predictions for the future in heiroglyphics based off of astronomy, ect. Eygytions believe in many virgin births it seems that are just like Jesus. And have two names for Jesus? 2 God's and 2 like Jesus.Kind of all confusing just like the answers or avoidance of answers here.
ttp://ancientegypt.hypermart.net/freemasonry/index.htm
(Maybe those 3rd degrees know some old egyption spells or something??ha!

eliseb, have you thought of going to some reputable Egyptology sites and learning more about the religion of the ancient Egyptians?

Did any of the sites you're now reading have examples of old Egyptian spells which I could also read?

Also, have you decided that you'd rather that I not copy and paste your PM? If so, that's fine.
I think it's quite possible that you wrote it in a hurry and were not aware of how it sounded to me.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Thaddeus,

To tell you the truth, I'm really not interested in your games. You ignore most of what the evidence has had to say, and you spin the rest. You really have little room for badmouthing the Masons or anyone else. I say that because of your selective bargaining with the truth about this word. The word we are speaking of is not #205 in Strong's, it is #202, and I see you conveniently "forgot" to focus any attentioni on what the definition for 202 says, as you did for 205. Why was that, Thad? What do you have to fear from the truth? I really couldn't believe, with your fast and loose treatment of the truth, that you had the nerve to ask:

Can you explain how you've come up with the exact opposite definition?

The answer is simple, I followed through on the correct Strong's number, not some wild goose chase after a root word, which as it takes no expert to know, can very often be completely different in meaning. There is no rule in linguistics (except in your imagination) that says a word must retain the same meaning as the root it possibly came from. But since you ignore even your own posts, let me re-post what you said about #202---NOT #205:

probably from the same as ''aven' (

205) (in the sense of effort, but successful); ability, power, (figuratively) wealth:--force, goods, might, strength, substance.

Who knows, maybe it was the bold print that threw you. It was obviously the only part you paid any attention to at all. In the first parenthesis after the bold print, you have the explanation for how this developed from a root totally different in meaning. They have both derived from the idea of "effort"; the difference is, as it says, this effort was successful, and so you get "ability, power, strength"; the word "aven," which is unsuccessful effort, leading to a meaning of falsity, vanity, and wickedness.

And while we're on the subject of Strong's--I see you also fail to take into account that the meaning of "an Egyptian city" is under an entirely separate number also, #204.

The self-description within the ritual itself clearly designates by the meaning it sets forth, that the author speaks of the meaning contained under #202. Any suggestion to the contrary is obviously "aven." If you catch my drift. And, having shown this, your posts #424 and #427 are irrelevant, as they refer to, respectively, Strong's #205 and #204. Let's have a bit of theological integrity, really.

In this post you yourself capitalized On.

(1) In this post I was making no distinction between the two.
(2) Also in this post I was quoting from a ritual in which each of the three parts were capitalized as well.
(3) The fact that you are now jumping back seven pages to find something to quibble about is pretty convincing evidence that I have an even more solid case than I thought.


Wayne

 

[eliseb]

Originally Posted by: Thaddeus
bill...may I ask you what degree you are?
I'm a baptist and I believe some of these guys are evil. I believe exactly as does Whitestar.

And I believe as Thaddeus and Whitestar.I'm willing to bet about 100 shriner beenies that these people are worshipping many Gods by the time they get to the 3rd degree and what is the big secret anyway? Duh... has to do with things that Christians are not suppose to be dabbling in.

 

[Rev Wayne]

I'm willing to bet about 100 shriner beenies that these people are worshipping many Gods by the time they get to the 3rd degree

And I'd bet just as many that Eliseb's avatar reveals a secret connection to Eastern Star, and she's obviously posting contrary things merely to throw us off-track. I mean, just look at the picture, it's easy to see that the star is being bowed to and worshiped.

And never mind the indignant responses, y'all. I'm just making the point that this is about the level of most of the antimasonic lines I hear, one little grain of something that appears off-kilter, yet is far off the mark and gets expanded into entire systems of thinking.

Wayne

 

[billmcelligott]

LoL I guess you're getting to know me, see my last post.

Are you a Royal Arch Mason?

I have worked out Thad, you are not as innocent as you like to make everyone think.

I have read your previous post but I am at a loss to make a leap to Freemasonry . Unless you mean the guy that made the needle was a Stone Mason.

They are both from Egypt. Taken by the Romans. Then donated to UK and US.

 

[billmcelligott]

Originally Posted by: Thaddeus
bill...may I ask you what degree you are?
I'm a baptist and I believe some of these guys are evil. I believe exactly as does Whitestar.http://www.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-bot-left.gif

And I believe as Thaddeus and Whitestar.I'm willing to bet about 100 shriner beenies that these people are worshipping many Gods by the time they get to the 3rd degree and what is the big secret anyway? Duh... has to do with things that Christians are not suppose to be dabbling in.

Certainly I am a Past Master of my Mother Lodge and my Royal Arch Chapter. Nothing very clever, I am technically a PPGADC. Which means I get invites to all sorts of meetings , but hwen I get there nobody knows who I am.

I am an Anglican ( Church of England) and I have seen no evil in Freemasonry, no one has given me any proof of any evil in Freemasonry.

You would think, would you not , that after 250 years of searching ancient documents and ritual books someone would come up with some definate proof. But, on every issue we are asked to accept this stranger than fiction accounts of how the dark forces have manufactured this society to further the aims of evil. On means this , the templars worship this 600 hundred years ago. All of which are refuted and rejected with solid argument.

This EVIL is done by donating aproximately 3,000,000 dollars a week worldwide to the sick and needy of the planet. Establishing Hospitals that treat people for nothing. Creating schools and Hospitals in third world countries. How evil can you get?