What if Jesus had been executed by lethal injection?

[Robban]

Like John the Baptist

All is possible.
There is also much hidden too.

But when asked if he was Elijah the Prophet,
did he not answer, no.

I may be getting him mixed up though.

 

[timothyu]

All is possible.
There is also much hidden too.

But when asked if he was Elijah the Prophet,
did he not answer, no.

The prophets of old also proclaimed God's appointed kings. John the B in a sense did that also. Today we have the likes of news pundits making proclamations. Hardly in the same playing field.

 

[Robban]

The prophets of old also proclaimed God's appointed kings. John the B in a sense did that also. Today we have the likes of news pundits making proclamations. Hardly in the same playing field.

No prophet ever said anything that was a product of his own mind.
They spoke and acted only at G-d,s behest.

Therefore I try to be open to all possibilties.

But even so as far as what concerns Israel

A prophesy will never contain a new mitzvah,
nor the annulment of a mitzvah.

A prophet claiming such a communication from G-d
proves himself a false prophet.

 

[cloudyday2]

All is possible.
There is also much hidden too.

But when asked if he was Elijah the Prophet,
did he not answer, no.

I may be getting him mixed up though.

In John 1:22-28 it seems that John the Baptist denies being the Christ, Elijah, or the Prophet but claims to be the voice of one crying in the desert "make straight the way of the Lord" from Isaiah.

 

[cloudyday2]

The era of prophesy came to an end,
the last generation of those who began to prophesy before the destruction of the first Holy Temple (423 BCE).
A number that generation survived the 70 year old Babylonian exile.
some of that long-lived generation lived to witness
the building of the second, and so the demise of that generation.

Divine inspiration was and is not limited to any special
generation, it is the province of the tzaddikim,
righteous men and women of all generations.

However,
in a letter to the Jews of Yemen Maimonides recounts an age-old tradition that,
"Shortly before the messianic era,
prophesy will return to the Jewish people.

What do you see as the difference between prophecy and divine inspiration? Is it that the message from God is directed at the entire people of Israel in the case of prophecy whereas divine inspiration is directed at a smaller audience?

 

[timothyu]

No prophet ever said anything that was a product of his own mind.
They spoke and acted only at G-d,s behest.

Agreed.

A prophesy will never contain a new mitzvah,
nor the annulment of a mitzvah.

A prophet claiming such a communication from G-d
proves himself a false prophet.

That is why Jesus' two commandments were just a condensed version of the older ones. Nothing new. Put the will of God before the will of man, His will being we love all as self.

 

[Robban]

What do you see as the difference between prophecy and divine inspiration? Is it that the message from God is directed at the entire people of Israel in the case of prophecy whereas divine inspiration is directed at a smaller audience?

The purpose of the messages communicated to individual
prophets is not to reveal the purpose of existence or to
legislate the laws of life.

That is all contained in the Torah and it,s 613 mitzvot.

Once G-d got the message across at Sinai,
He kind of withdrew leaving us to study and explain.

Enter divine inspiration.

 

[timothyu]

Like the word of God being given directly to man through a man, but the inspiration is the ah-ha moment of understanding the wisdom. Like how loving all as self wipes out sin. How the ways of the Kingdom are contrary to the ways of man. How Jesus was a revolutionary come to rock the establishment minus the flowers in His hair.

 

[Robban]

Like the word of God being given directly to man through a man, but the inspiration is the ah-ha moment of understanding the wisdom. Like how loving all as self wipes out sin. How the ways of the Kingdom are contrary to the ways of man. How Jesus was a revolutionary come to rock the establishment minus the flowers in His hair.

 

[Robban]

A btw to my friend cloudy,

Hope I did not offend you by saying, "see you later alligator".
For some reason that old song flashed through my mind
when I was about to finish my post.

So after I thought, never mind if he is snappy he will
reply with,
"In a while crocodile."

 

[cloudyday2]

A btw to my friend cloudy,

Hope I did not offend you by saying, "see you later alligator".
For some reason that old song flashed through my mind
when I was about to finish my post.

So after I thought, never mind if he is snappy he will
reply with,
"In a while crocodile."

No, I was going to say "after while, crocodile" but I knew you wouldn't see it until the next day and then it might need to be something else ... I don't know maybe "how now, brown cow"

 

[Robban]

No, I was going to say "after while, crocodile" but I knew you wouldn't see it until the next day and then it might need to be something else ... I don't know maybe "how now, brown cow"

"The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain"

Same musical?

Haha, it,s quizz night.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

As I understand it, in Judaism the procedure for sacrificing animals seemed to be intended to minimize the suffering. Your example of the scapegoat might be an exception. I'm sure the scapegoat was terrified and confused to be chased over a cliff. Some goats are pretty nimble climbers, so I wonder how many Israelites fell to their deaths trying to force the goat to fall to its death. LOL Somewhere I read that the scapegoat ritual seemed to be an oddity. There was also the ritual of dragging a bloody animal through the temple for cleansing that was an oddity.

I don't think the Levitical laws mention anything about the method as to minimise suffering. It usually just says 'slaughter before the Lord' or 'wring off its head' for birds. If there are procedures to minimise suffering, those are surely later rabbinical ones?

 

[cloudyday2]

I don't think the Levitical laws mention anything about the method as to minimise suffering. It usually just says 'slaughter before the Lord' or 'wring off its head' for birds. If there are procedures to minimise suffering, those are surely later rabbinical ones?

I imagine the procedures for sacrifice developed from the period when it is was decentralized at various high places and evolved gradually until the First Temple period. I bet those procedures did not change much after the First Temple and were fairly accurately preserved down to our time, but I don't know.

It seems the essence of sacrifice was to share a meal with God or to give-up something valuable to show God your devotion. The only example of vicarious punishment that comes to mind would be the scapegoat ritual you mentioned.

There was also the idea of redeeming your firstborn human children by sacrificing an animal in their place, so there was that. Of course vicariously sacrificing an animal in place of a human firstborn was seen as a gift to God rather than punishing something. It was more like paying a fine or tax to God I think.

Personally, I think Christian theology works better to view the suffering of Jesus as merely an unfortunate side-effect of the rejection of the Messianic claim of Jesus. That rejection was the key feature followed by God's acceptance of Jesus to sit at his right side until a Second Coming.

 

[Robban]

Imagine if all the cruelty was removed from the passion narrative in the gospels. Let's say the Temple authorities apprehended Jesus and allowed him a lawyer and a fair trial and then turned him over to the Romans for a painless execution by lethal injection. Afterwards Jesus walks from the tomb and appears to select followers before ascending to sit at the right hand of the Father.

Would that have worked theologically?

Take the bull by the horns, the Romans were not nice people,
They were cruel and sadistic.

Example, the ten martyrs who were executed in the
most unspeakable sadistic fashion,

their crime, teaching and spreading Torah.
Check it out.
Rabbi Akiva,
Rabbi Hanaiah,
Rabbi Judah Ben Bava,
Rabbi Shimon Ben Gamiel,
Rabbi Ishmael Kohen Gadol,
Rabbi Judah Ben Damah,
Rabbi Elazar Ben Shamua,
Rabbi Haninah Ben Hachinai,
Jeshevav the scribe,
Rabbi Hutzpith

 

[cloudyday2]

Take the bull by the horns, the Romans were not nice people,
They were cruel and sadistic.

Example, the ten martyrs who were executed in the
most unspeakable sadistic fashion,

their crime, teaching and spreading Torah.
Check it out.
Rabbi Akiva,
Rabbi Hanaiah,
Rabbi Judah Ben Bava,
Rabbi Shimon Ben Gamiel,
Rabbi Ishmael Kohen Gadol,
Rabbi Judah Ben Damah,
Rabbi Elazar Ben Shamua,
Rabbi Haninah Ben Hachinai,
Jeshevav the scribe,
Rabbi Hutzpith

There is a tendency for modern Westerners to admire the Romans and Greeks and imagine that they shared our modern respect for human life. I can't think of too many ancient leaders that respected human life except maybe Cyrus the Great (but I am sure Cyrus had his cruel side and there were other leaders with a reputation for cruelty who had their kind side).
I get depressed when I read about some of the things that people have done to each other in the past and continue to do even in modern times.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

There is a tendency for modern Westerners to admire the Romans and Greeks and imagine that they shared our modern respect for human life. I can't think of too many ancient leaders that respected human life except maybe Cyrus the Great (but I am sure Cyrus had his cruel side and there were other leaders with a reputation for cruelty who had their kind side).
I get depressed when I read about some of the things that people have done to each other in the past and continue to do even in modern times.

Hey, the Romans were great for their time, but you can't judge the past by modern standards. They outlawed human sacrifice by the Carthaginians, Phoenicians and Celts; they established rule of law above arbitrary dictates, so that provincials could appeal to Rome; they expanded their franchise, to ultimately weld disparate peoples into a whole, that thought themselves Roman. There is a lot to admire.

But no Empire is built without blood, and Rome spilled a lot. The slaves crucified next to the Appian way or when Jerusalem was taken; the sacks of Corinth, Numantia, Carthage; and no Empire is free of egregious abuses, such as meted out to Protagoras' daughters. It is what it is. On the broader scale though, the Romans tend to be the 'good guys' if such a thing exists in history, as they built a large stable and peaceful empire, that mostly replaced internecine warfare, arbitrary rule and acts just as egregious as those committed by Rome.

 

[cloudyday2]

Hey, the Romans were great for their time, but you can't judge the past by modern standards. They outlawed human sacrifice by the Carthaginians, Phoenicians and Celts; they established rule of law above arbitrary dictates, so that provincials could appeal to Rome; they expanded their franchise, to ultimately weld disparate peoples into a whole, that thought themselves Roman. There is a lot to admire.

But no Empire is built without blood, and Rome spilled a lot. The slaves crucified next to the Appian way or when Jerusalem was taken; the sacks of Corinth, Numantia, Carthage; and no Empire is free of egregious abuses, such as meted out to Protagoras' daughters. It is what it is. On the broader scale though, the Romans tend to be the 'good guys' if such a thing exists in history, as they built a large stable and peaceful empire, that mostly replaced internecine warfare, arbitrary rule and acts just as egregious as those committed by Rome.

I have been watching a Great Courses DVD "Understanding Greek and Roman Technology" which is very interesting and makes me appreciate and admire Roman construction accomplishments. They were very determined and resourceful.

 

[Robban]

I have been watching a Great Courses DVD "Understanding Greek and Roman Technology" which is very interesting and makes me appreciate and admire Roman construction accomplishments. They were very determined and resourceful.

Empires have risen and fallen.
Where are they today?

Ask a cab driver in Rome,

"Where are the Romans?"
he will tell you,

"They are gone."

 

[cloudyday2]

Empires have risen and fallen.
Where are they today?

Ask a cab driver in Rome,

"Where are the Romans?"
he will tell you,

"They are gone."

I wonder if we are approaching a time when there will be one world government that never falls? Is technology liberating people or enslaving them? Is anarchy a paradise or is one world government a paradise?

Ultimately I think humans will be eliminated from Earth in favor of technology that no longer needs us. Maybe that technology will have its own religious ideas and pray to God and experience divine inspiration and so forth.