What if Jesus had been executed by lethal injection?

[Chesterton]

Imagine if all the cruelty was removed from the passion narrative in the gospels.

Jesus suffered all the things we humans dread and fear. He faced the loneliness of his unreliable friends falling asleep on him in the Garden of Gethsemane. He experienced the betrayal of his friend Judas, and being disowned by other disciples out of fear. He experienced hunger, and thirst on the cross, when they gave him vinegar. He faced being falsely accused. He experienced the mob turning on him. The soldiers beat him, and mocked and humiliated him. He experienced the dread of pain and death, and then the actual experience. The physical pain we experience had to be a part of this, IMO. Jesus suffered all the things we humans fear, so as human and God, he knows us.

And when judgment day comes and we're judged for our sins, no one can say to God "but you don't know what it's like to be one of us..."

 

[Silmarien]

Imagine if all the cruelty was removed from the passion narrative in the gospels. Let's say the Temple authorities apprehended Jesus and allowed him a lawyer and a fair trial and then turned him over to the Romans for a painless execution by lethal injection. Afterwards Jesus walks from the tomb and appears to select followers before ascending to sit at the right hand of the Father.

Would that have worked theologically?

Lethal injection is not actually supposed to be a painless execution. It's a particularly barbaric practice where the victim is paralyzed and then suffocated, with no guarantee that the anesthetics are actually working, so if the underlying concern is horrifying cruelty, then yeah, lethal injection is still valid.

There's no such thing as a painless, humane form of execution. The closest we've ever gotten is the guillotine, ironically, but lethal injection swings back in the opposite direction--we use medicine to make something inherently violent look peaceful for the sake of our own consciences, not on behalf of the victims.

Cruel and Usual?: Is Capital Punishment by Lethal Injection Quick and Painless?

Execution by injection far from painless

 

[Albion]

Imagine if all the cruelty was removed from the passion narrative in the gospels. Let's say the Temple authorities apprehended Jesus and allowed him a lawyer and a fair trial and then turned him over to the Romans for a painless execution by lethal injection. Afterwards Jesus walks from the tomb and appears to select followers before ascending to sit at the right hand of the Father.

Would that have worked theologically?

You've described a series of events that would have been impossible (Romans and lethal injection, painlessness, etc.), so there's nothing to inquire about.

However, if we play the game, I'm inclined to say "yes" since undergoing death and overcoming it was at the heart of the experience. It's referred to in that way in various passages of Scripture.

 

[cloudyday2]

Lethal injection is not actually supposed to be a painless execution. It's a particularly barbaric practice where the victim is paralyzed and then suffocated, with no guarantee that the anesthetics are actually working, so if the underlying concern is horrifying cruelty, then yeah, lethal injection is still valid.

There's no such thing as a painless, humane form of execution. The closest we've ever gotten is the guillotine, ironically, but lethal injection swings back in the opposite direction--we use medicine to make something inherently violent look peaceful for the sake of our own consciences, not on behalf of the victims.

Cruel and Usual?: Is Capital Punishment by Lethal Injection Quick and Painless?

Execution by injection far from painless

O.k. instead of lethal injection imagine the guillotine or even hypothermia.
Personally I think part of the unpleasantness of execution would come from the dread beforehand. The way we in the US keep people on death row for years with countless dates for their execution that are then delayed seems cruel and unusual. If I was convicted I would want to get it over with as soon as possible. On the other hand, I guess in a way we all are on death row, and most of us are not in a hurry to end it.

 

[cloudyday2]

You've described a series of events that would have been impossible (Romans and lethal injection, painlessness, etc.), so there's nothing to inquire about.

However, if we play the game, I'm inclined to say "yes" since undergoing death and overcoming it was at the heart of the experience. It's referred to in that way in various passages of Scripture.

That is what I think too. Jesus must be rejected by the Jewish authorities as their Messiah, but then God must demonstrate that Jesus is the Messiah through the Resurrection (or any other means such as simply an Ascension without first dying). And the Second Coming becomes a second chance for the Jewish authorities to get it right. That seems to be the minimum gospel as I see it.

 

[cloudyday2]

If the trial was fair (it was not even legal), Lord Jesus would have been acquitted. Lord Jesus suffered according to God's will.

He was executed for claiming to be the king of the Jews (i.e. the Messiah or the Christ). The evidence is embedded in the title "Jesus Christ". Somebody was claiming that Jesus was king of the Jews or he wouldn't have been called Jesus Christ later. Only Rome could appoint kings in the provinces.

 

[Silmarien]

O.k. instead of lethal injection imagine the guillotine or even hypothermia.
Personally I think part of the unpleasantness of execution would come from the dread beforehand. The way we in the US keep people on death row for years with countless dates for their execution that are then delayed seems cruel and unusual. If I was convicted I would want to get it over with as soon as possible. On the other hand, I guess in a way we all are on death row, and most of us are not in a hurry to end it.

Yeah, a lot of people think they'd prefer to get execution over with rather than to drag it out for ages, but I suppose that's easy to say when death is more of an abstract possibility.

In any case, I think the point was actually facing and overcoming the full reality of death, not specifically suffering as much as possible.

 

[Aussie Pete]

He was executed for claiming to be the king of the Jews (i.e. the Messiah or the Christ). The evidence is embedded in the title "Jesus Christ". Somebody was claiming that Jesus was king of the Jews or he wouldn't have been called Jesus Christ later. Only Rome could appoint kings in the provinces.

I don't accept that. Pilate was quite willing to let Jesus go. What he did not want was a fight with the leaders of the Jewish community. Lord Jesus had the title "Christ" during His life on earth. I can't prove it, but I'm sure that Pilate was being deliberately sarcastic and insulting when he had the "King of the Jews" sign put on the cross.

 

[cloudyday2]

I don't accept that. Pilate was quite willing to let Jesus go. What he did not want was a fight with the leaders of the Jewish community. Lord Jesus had the title "Christ" during His life on earth. I can't prove it, but I'm sure that Pilate was being deliberately sarcastic and insulting when he had the "King of the Jews" sign put on the cross.

Hmmm, I had not considered sarcasm as a possibility

 

[timothyu]

but I'm sure that Pilate was being deliberately sarcastic and insulting when he had the "King of the Jews" sign put on the cross.

More of a political message IMO. I'm sure he was quite aware that the people had longed for their messiah to come save them. This would be a sign of what that messiah regardless of who the people thought it was, could expect in order to stifle the hopes of the people. Like with many people in the justice system today, they are unjustly over-punished as an example to others,.

 

[DamianWarS]

Imagine if all the cruelty was removed from the passion narrative in the gospels. Let's say the Temple authorities apprehended Jesus and allowed him a lawyer and a fair trial and then turned him over to the Romans for a painless execution by lethal injection. Afterwards Jesus walks from the tomb and appears to select followers before ascending to sit at the right hand of the Father.

Would that have worked theologically?

Abstractly God could use it in a redemptive model but it doesn't work because it doesn't fit what was prophesied about Jesus.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Lethal injection is not actually supposed to be a painless execution. It's a particularly barbaric practice where the victim is paralyzed and then suffocated, with no guarantee that the anesthetics are actually working, so if the underlying concern is horrifying cruelty, then yeah, lethal injection is still valid.

There's no such thing as a painless, humane form of execution. The closest we've ever gotten is the guillotine, ironically, but lethal injection swings back in the opposite direction--we use medicine to make something inherently violent look peaceful for the sake of our own consciences, not on behalf of the victims.

Cruel and Usual?: Is Capital Punishment by Lethal Injection Quick and Painless?

Execution by injection far from painless

The most common form of lethal injection is a mixture of sodium thiopentone and high concentrations of potassium, neither of which have any analgesic properties. More so, the injection of the thiopentone into the veins is itself painful.

The original intent was to secure a quick and certain death; as opposed to hanging say - where potentially the initial fall might not fracture C1/C2 vertebrae and thus lead to a longer death by strangulation than intended. It wasn't meant to be pain free, but it was meant to be merciful. Other methods like the electric chair or gunshot, have equal potential for lingering deaths if botched. Not that lethal injection is foolproof, so I agree a guillotine of sufficient height would be best - but more traumatic to onlookers, which again, had been the intent when executions were meant to be a deterrent.

Honestly, if you want a pain free death, I don't see why they don't just give massive opiate doses, with some ketamine for dissociation and to prevent opiate-hyperalgesia. That is one of the ways they commit euthanasia, after all.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Personally, I think the suffering is very important. Jesus is the Scapegoat for our sins, which is why He suffers. That is also why we needed a drawn out execution, to put the full reality of violence before us, so that in seeing the innocent suffer, we can fathom the evils we commit to one another. Crucifixion was the worst Rome could offer, but He could just as likely been impaled or other such horrible death. That it fulfills prophecy or mimics the Day of Atonement or sacrifices is not a specific reason for Crucifixion in my opinion, as if Jesus was meant to die in another manner, those things would have mimicked that method, or prophecy would have pointed to it. A simple death though, is insufficient, as it does not depict the sheer violence and evil that our sins necessarily leads to. A part of its effect is in depicting patient suffering in extreme circumstances, and acting as an invertion of the scapegoating principle to have us realise our own responsibility for the evils of the world.

 

[Jok]

There were more cruel punishments available. Jesus was supposed to suffer for several days on the cross but only lasted a few hours, so even crucifixion could have been done with more cruelty than it was.

Did you see The Passion? I don't even know how he lasted a few hours up there! I seriously doubt that that is what most crucified people went through prior to the actual crucifixion.

 

[Jok]

That it fulfills prophecy or mimics the Day of Atonement or sacrifices is not a specific reason for Crucifixion in my opinion, as if Jesus was meant to die in another manner, those things would have mimicked that method, or prophecy would have pointed to it.

What do you mean here exactly? Are you saying that if he wasn't crucified the prophecies would have been written differently? I think that it had to be crucifixion because crucifixion mimicked those things. I wasn't sure if what you wrote agrees with that. Isn't that what prophecy is all about, to point to details that are in the future and therefore impossible to just guess at?

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

What do you mean here exactly? Are you saying that if he wasn't crucified the prophecies would have been written differently? I think that it had to be crucifixion because crucifixion mimicked those things. I wasn't sure if what you wrote agrees with that. Isn't that what prophecy is all about, to point to details that are in the future and therefore impossible to just guess at?

My point is, that if Jesus was fated to die by being hacked to death by swords or something, then from the beginning of history the prophecies would have reflected that, instead of Crucifixion.

Saying Jesus had to die by Crucifixion because of the prophecies, is simply untrue. Once those prophecies were uttered, certainly, but God could have revealed different ones if He so chose - Stabbed for our iniquity, or have the Israelites beat the brazen serpent in the wilderness, etc.

 

[Jok]

My point is, that if Jesus was fated to die by being hacked to death by swords or something, then from the beginning of history the prophecies would have reflected that, instead of Crucifixion.

Saying Jesus had to die by Crucifixion because of the prophecies, is simply untrue. Once those prophecies were uttered, certainly, but God could have revealed different ones if He so chose - Stabbed for our iniquity, or have the Israelites beat the brazen serpent in the wilderness, etc.

Thanks, now I understand totally what you meant. I agree. I do like how some people point out that the method of the day was stoning when those prophecies were given.

 

[cloudyday2]

Personally, I think the suffering is very important. Jesus is the Scapegoat for our sins, which is why He suffers. That is also why we needed a drawn out execution, to put the full reality of violence before us, so that in seeing the innocent suffer, we can fathom the evils we commit to one another. Crucifixion was the worst Rome could offer, but He could just as likely been impaled or other such horrible death. That it fulfills prophecy or mimics the Day of Atonement or sacrifices is not a specific reason for Crucifixion in my opinion, as if Jesus was meant to die in another manner, those things would have mimicked that method, or prophecy would have pointed to it. A simple death though, is insufficient, as it does not depict the sheer violence and evil that our sins necessarily leads to. A part of its effect is in depicting patient suffering in extreme circumstances, and acting as an invertion of the scapegoating principle to have us realise our own responsibility for the evils of the world.

I am glad you voiced that view, because it seems to be more persuasive than the other view (fulfillment of prophecy). As you said, the prophecy should depend on the future event, so explaining the event by referring to the prophecy doesn't work IMO. The idea that sins could be transferred through a ritual such as the scapegoat ritual or when the head of the animal in a sin offering was touched seems a possible explanation. But when those animals were sacrificed there was no cruelty.

 

[Jok]

I am glad you voiced that view, because it seems to be more persuasive than the other view (fulfillment of prophecy). As you said, the prophecy should depend on the future event, so explaining the event by referring to the prophecy doesn't work IMO.

Wow I'm not following anyone tonight lol, what are you saying now, are you claiming that you think Isaiah was written after the time of Christ?

 

[cloudyday2]

Wow I'm not following anyone tonight lol, what are you saying now, are you claiming that you think Isaiah was written after the time of Christ?

No, when God creates a prophecy he has a plan for the future in mind. The plan for the future determines the prophecy. The prophecy does not determine the plan for the future.

So to say that the reason for cruelty in the Crucifixion was the existence of the suffering servant verses in Isaiah (and other prophecies) is not giving a real reason.