What if I do something different than what God's foreknowledge says I will do?

[Akureyri]

Let's say on day 1, God knows I will choose A out of a day 2 A/B choice. When day 2 comes around, I freely choose B instead of A. What happens to God's foreknowledge that I would choose A?

 

[Sedoy]

God knew your A or B before you were even born, long before. God is outside of time itself.

 

[BelievingIsObeying]

Time was invented for man so that everything doesn't happen at once.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

God knew you would choose B...

 

[Dusky Mouse]

Omniscience= all knowing.
There is no thing God can not know. What you believe is free choice is what you believe was your choice. But if God is all knowing for all time, there is no thing you can choose that he did not see coming.

 

[Daniel Alievsky]

Let's say on day 1, God knows I will choose A out of a day 2 A/B choice. When day 2 comes around, I freely choose B instead of A. What happens to God's foreknowledge that I would choose A?

It is really difficult question. Yes, God knows all about our choices. But it does not mean that we have no freedom of choice, that all future is predetermined. As I remember, Rambam (Maimonid) commented so: the knowledge of God is another thing than the knowledge of man, we cannot even imagine His knowledge. If you need, I can try to find this.

As I understand myself, these are two differend kinds of knowledges, like "knowledges itself" and "meta-knowledge". Please compare with the author of a novell and personages of this novel. Does author know the future of personages? Yes. He knows all the novel, as well as he already finished it. Does it mean that personages have no freedom of choice? Of course, no! Of course, if it is a good novell. Sometimes they have more psychological deep than some people of real world.

 

[Akureyri]

God knew your A or B before you were even born, long before. God is outside of time itself.

So God knows my freely made choices before I make them. Let's say before I make an A/B choice, God knows I will choose A. What happens to God's foreknowledge if I then choose B?

 

[Akureyri]

God knew you would choose B...

Let's say before I make my freewill A/B choice, God knows I will choose B. I then freely choose A. What happens to God's foreknowledge?

 

[Akureyri]

Omniscience= all knowing.
There is no thing God can not know. What you believe is free choice is what you believe was your choice. But if God is all knowing for all time, there is no thing you can choose that he did not see coming.

Let's say today, God knows I will choose A out of an A/B choice that I will make tomorrow. I then choose B. What happens to God's foreknowledge?

 

[Akureyri]

It is really difficult question. Yes, God knows all about our choices. But it does not mean that we have no freedom of choice, that all future is predetermined.

Then what happens if today, God knows I will choose A out of an A/B choice which I will be making tomorrow. When tomorrow comes around, I freely choose B. What then happens to God's foreknowledge?

As I remember, Rambam (Maimonid) commented so: the knowledge of God is another thing than the knowledge of man, we cannot even imagine His knowledge. If you need, I can try to find this.

As I understand myself, these are two differend kinds of knowledges, like "knowledges itself" and "meta-knowledge". Please compare with the author of a novell and personages of this novel. Does author know the future of personages? Yes. He knows all the novel, as well as he already finished it. Does it mean that personages have no freedom of choice? Of course, no!

Then let's say a character in the novel will be faced with an A/B choice tomorrow in which he can freely choose either A or B. Today, the author knows that the character will choose A. The character then freely chooses B. What happens to the authors knowledge that the character would choose A?

 

[RDKirk]

Let's say on day 1, God knows I will choose A out of a day 2 A/B choice. When day 2 comes around, I freely choose B instead of A. What happens to God's foreknowledge that I would choose A?

God's foreknowledge was not that you'd choose A, it was that you'd choose B.

Foreknowledge, by definition, is what it will be. Otherwise, it would not have been foreknowlege, it would have been a coin toss.

It's as if you were asking, what if a duck were a carrot?

 

[bling]

Let's say on day 1, God knows I will choose A out of a day 2 A/B choice. When day 2 comes around, I freely choose B instead of A. What happens to God's foreknowledge that I would choose A?

You are making one huge unsupported assumption: Time is not relative as far as God is concerned.

You make this “assumption” even though science has experimentally only been able to support Einstein’s Theory of Relativity over the last 100 years.

There is nothing “scientifically” that limits the degree of time relativity, unless you know something?

Think of it “like” this: You know a free will choice you made yesterday, so does that “knowledge” of your unchangeable free will choice make suddenly make it not a free will choice?

God today also knows the free will choice you made yesterday and the God of today can send that information back to himself in our past, so how does that suddenly make your of yesterday not a free will choice.

It is not God’s knowledge of you free will choice that keeps you from making another choice, but it is the fact that you made the choice in the future, already as far as God is concerned so He knows.

 

[FlameAlchemist]

So God knows my freely made choices before I make them. Let's say before I make an A/B choice, God knows I will choose A. What happens to God's foreknowledge if I then choose B?

If God's foreknowledge was that you will choose A, then you'll choose A. If you choose B God's foreknowledge would be that you will choose B

 

[Daniel Alievsky]

Then what happens if today, God knows I will choose A out of an A/B choice which I will be making tomorrow. When tomorrow comes around, I freely choose B. What then happens to God's foreknowledge?

The issue here is in the term "freely". Your freedom and God's freedom are different things, because you and God exist in different timestreams. (More precisely, God exists out of time at all.)

Yes, you can freely choose both A and B tomorrow. God knows about your choice "from the very beginning". But you cannot get this knowledge in any way! Not because you are not a prophet (maybe you are), but because this knowledge of God has a different nature and cannot be applied to men.

So, your scenario is impossible. You say that God today knows about A, but you tomorrow choose B. However, to choose a choice different from A, you should know God's knowledge. And it is impossible in principle.

Then let's say a character in the novel will be faced with an A/B choice tomorrow in which he can freely choose either A or B. Today, the author knows that the character will choose A. The character then freely chooses B. What happens to the authors knowledge that the character would choose A?

It is a good example, it really helps to clarify the question. You forget a very simple thing: the author exists in another timestream than his personage. The author already finished writing the novel! He knows choices of personages during all time. However, every time when someone reads this novel, the personage lives in the mind of the reader. And this personage (as well as the reader) does not know about his tomorrow's choice. Inside the timestream of the novel every personage has the freedom of choice.

God, in some sense, "already" finished creation of the Universe, it is said in the 1st chapter of Bible. But it is not obvious to understand without Oral Torah, that God has really created all 4-dimensional (and probably more dimensional) Universe, including all the future and the past. Not only a 3d "cut", corresponding to some moment of the history, but whole Universe with all epochs.

And it does not prevents God from interaction with his personages, i.e. with us. As you remember, our authors (which are created after the image and likeness of God) sometimes take part in actions of their novells, speak with their personages and even help them.

 

[RDKirk]

God, in some sense, "already" finished creation of the Universe, it is said in the 1st chapter of Bible. But it is not obvious to understand without Oral Torah, that God has really created all 4-dimensional (and probably more dimensional) Universe, including all the future and the past. Not only a 3d "cut", corresponding to some moment of the history, but whole Universe with all epochs.
.

This characteristic is called "extemporal simultaneity."

 

[Akureyri]

God's foreknowledge was not that you'd choose A, it was that you'd choose B.

Foreknowledge, by definition, is what it will be. Otherwise, it would not have been foreknowlege, it would have been a coin toss.

It's as if you were asking, what if a duck were a carrot?

Let's assign the variable X to what God's foreknowledge of what my A/B choice will be.

And let's assign the variable Y to what my freely made A/B choice is.

First, correct me if I'm wrong about how you view this:
1) Variable X must equal variable Y
2) On day 1, variable X has a fixed value and can't change
3) On day 1, variable Y doesn't have a value
4) On day 2, variable Y can be freely assigned the value of either A or B

Are items 1 to 4 correct about how you view this?

Now let's say on day 1, variable X is equal to A.
On day 2, variable Y is freely assigned the value B.
This defeats the assertion in item #1 in which it is said that variable X must equal variable Y.

Therefore, it is impossible for God (or anyone for that matter) to infallibly know what someone will freely choose at a later point in time.

Make sense?

 

[Akureyri]

You are making one huge unsupported assumption: Time is not relative as far as God is concerned.

You make this “assumption” even though science has experimentally only been able to support Einstein’s Theory of Relativity over the last 100 years.

There is nothing “scientifically” that limits the degree of time relativity, unless you know something?

Think of it “like” this: You know a free will choice you made yesterday, so does that “knowledge” of your unchangeable free will choice make suddenly make it not a free will choice?

That choice has already been made, so that analogy doesn't work.

God today also knows the free will choice you made yesterday and the God of today can send that information back to himself in our past, so how does that suddenly make your of yesterday not a free will choice.

Because if on day 1, God knows your day 2 a/b choice will be a, and you then freely choose b, God foreknowledge would be invalidated.

It is not God’s knowledge of you free will choice that keeps you from making another choice, but it is the fact that you made the choice in the future, already as far as God is concerned so He knows.

If it is asked on day 1, "Does God know what my day 2 freely made choice will be?" and the answer is YES, then my day 2 freely made choice has been stamped in time on day 1 and must have a value then. If that value on day 1 is A and I end up choosing B, then God was wrong and his foreknowledge is fallible.

Another way to look at it this (as I described to RDKirk)

Let's assign the variable X to what God's foreknowledge of what my A/B choice will be.

And let's assign the variable Y to what my freely made A/B choice is.

First, correct me if I'm wrong about how you view this:
1) Variable X must equal variable Y
2) On day 1, variable X has a fixed value and can't change
3) On day 1, variable Y doesn't have a value
4) On day 2, variable Y can be freely assigned the value of either A or B

Are items 1 to 4 correct about how you view this?

Now let's say on day 1, variable X is equal to A.
On day 2, variable Y is freely assigned the value B.
This defeats the assertion in item #1 in which it is said that variable X must equal variable Y.

Therefore, it is impossible for God (or anyone for that matter) to infallibly know what someone will freely choose at a later point in time.

Make sense?

 

[Akureyri]

If God's foreknowledge was that you will choose A, then you'll choose A. If you choose B God's foreknowledge would be that you will choose B

Let's assign the variable X to what God's foreknowledge of what my A/B choice will be.

And let's assign the variable Y to what my freely made A/B choice is.

First, correct me if I'm wrong about how you view this:
1) Variable X must equal variable Y
2) On day 1, variable X has a fixed value and can't change
3) On day 1, variable Y doesn't have a value
4) On day 2, variable Y can be freely assigned the value of either A or B

Are items 1 to 4 correct about how you view this?

Now let's say on day 1, variable X is equal to A.
On day 2, variable Y is freely assigned the value B.
This defeats the assertion in item #1 in which it is said that variable X must equal variable Y.

Therefore, it is impossible for God (or anyone for that matter) to infallibly know what someone will freely choose at a later point in time.

Make sense?[/B]

However, if you assert that variable X gets its value from variable Y, then the way you view this is:

1) Variable X must equal variable Y
2) On day 1, variable X has a fixed value that is known only to God and can't change; However, it won't be assigned a value until day 2.
3) On day 1, variable Y doesn't have a value
4) On day 2, variable Y can be freely assigned the value of either A or B

Please explain how God can know what the value is of variable Y is if it hasn't yet been assigned a value?

 

[Akureyri]

The issue here is in the term "freely". Your freedom and God's freedom are different things, because you and God exist in different timestreams. (More precisely, God exists out of time at all.)

Yes, you can freely choose both A and B tomorrow. God knows about your choice "from the very beginning". But you cannot get this knowledge in any way! Not because you are not a prophet (maybe you are), but because this knowledge of God has a different nature and cannot be applied to men.

So, your scenario is impossible. You say that God today knows about A, but you tomorrow choose B. However, to choose a choice different from A, you should know God's knowledge. And it is impossible in principle.

You've forgotten that the presupposition is that I can freely choose either A or B. If God knows on day 1 what my freely made day 2 A/B choice will be, then it raises the question of what will happen if God knows on day 1 that I will choose A on day 2 and I end up choosing B. If God knows on day 1 that I will make a day 2 A/B choice of A, and I cannot freely choose B - due to God's foreknowledge, then you are changing the parameters such that I cannot freely choose A or B.

It is a good example, it really helps to clarify the question. You forget a very simple thing: the author exists in another timestream than his personage. The author already finished writing the novel! He knows choices of personages during all time. However, every time when someone reads this novel, the personage lives in the mind of the reader. And this personage (as well as the reader) does not know about his tomorrow's choice. Inside the timestream of the novel every personage has the freedom of choice.

False analogy. If the novel has already been completed, regardless of whether or not it has been read, the choices of the personages in the novel have already been established.

God, in some sense, "already" finished creation of the Universe, it is said in the 1st chapter of Bible. But it is not obvious to understand without Oral Torah, that God has really created all 4-dimensional (and probably more dimensional) Universe, including all the future and the past. Not only a 3d "cut", corresponding to some moment of the history, but whole Universe with all epochs.

And it does not prevents God from interaction with his personages, i.e. with us. As you remember, our authors (which are created after the image and likeness of God) sometimes take part in actions of their novells, speak with their personages and even help them.

Another way to look at it this (as I described to RDKirk)

Let's assign the variable X to what God's foreknowledge of what my A/B choice will be.

And let's assign the variable Y to what my freely made A/B choice is.

First, correct me if I'm wrong about how you view this:
1) Variable X must equal variable Y
2) On day 1, variable X has a fixed value and can't change
3) On day 1, variable Y doesn't have a value
4) On day 2, variable Y can be freely assigned the value of either A or B

Are items 1 to 4 correct about how you view this?

Now let's say on day 1, variable X is equal to A.
On day 2, variable Y is freely assigned the value B.
This defeats the assertion in item #1 in which it is said that variable X must equal variable Y.

Therefore, it is impossible for God (or anyone for that matter) to infallibly know what someone will freely choose at a later point in time.

Make sense?

 

[Sedoy]

You get your question answered 10 times and you just ask it 11th time.

God is outside of time so it does not matter how many times you change your mind He knows them all.

In your mind you refuse to even allow the possibility of Somebody greater then you, able to know more then you and living in the concept greater then you can understand.
You experience Him and His timeless nature but in order for that you must first believe in Him and submit to Him first. In your pride though you cannot do that and, instead, you are trying to figure Him out. You will fail. It is a fact because He is greater then your ability to understand.