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What you are saying is that your freedom to choose "B" would be removed. I guess that would make you a robot of some sort.
How it would happen is:
1) Variable X must equal variable Y
2) On day 1, variable X has the value of Y on day 2
3) On day 1, variable Y doesn't have a value
4) On day 2, variable Y can be freely assigned the value of either A or B
What happens in between, before, and after these events is that God simultaneously sees your action on Day 2, having been freely assigned, and thus X is equal to what Y will be, since God exists in day 1 and day 2 simultaneously.
If Pete can freely choose A or B, then he can choose either A or B - regardless if anyone or anything has fore-ordained this choice for Pete.Yes. And they freely choose what God has ordained for them (and the analogy is only how I can best understand it; it certainly does not depict God's fore-ordination in the exact way it happens. No human on earth can know how it is done; there are many theological speculations on it, but that is all it is: speculation. It really isn't the foundation of a Christian's belief, just a minor detail of it).
You've contradicted yourself. If he can theoretically choose B, then he can choose B. Don't say he can choose B and say he can't choose B.He will ultimately choose A. Up until he chooses A, he can theoretically choose B, yet he will not. His ability to choose B is impeded by God's fore-ordination, in which He has fore-ordained that this person will freely choose A.
That's not the situation I'm talking about. I'm talking about a human who is faced with an upcoming decision between A or B - which can be freely made with absolutely nothing impeding the decision.I was pondering all this and it came to me that perhaps the misunderstanding is all centered on how it is free *will*, not free action. All these scenarios are centered around an action a person will take. And as everyone knows there is no one alive who can do whatever they want. Everyone is limited to certain choices by physical restraints. Perhaps this person wants to choose B actually, but he ends up acting out the choice of A because of certain limitations. That can be what is actually going on here--there are tons of things we may want to do, but we're not going to be able to do whatever we want because of our restrictions.
When you (or someone else) posits a god that possesses logically impossible characteristics, it is not a choice I make to not believe this god exists. I let logic do the dirty work and I merely respond to what logic says.I really won't because your words and what I have once said were almost exactly the same--that if someone could provide evidence for me for the existence of God, that perhaps I would believe in Him (the "it just didn't add up" was a paraphrasing of that statement. For me, the logical inconsistencies of God were an impediment for my belief in Him--what I was implying when I said, "it didn't add up". I'm pretty sure that is basically what you are saying as you keep referring to God's fore-ordination as a logical impossibility).
Then what do you suppose Pete would feel/experience when he attempts to choose B if God has already told him he will choose A?If God decided to audibly speak to someone according to the details of this situation, I would imagine the events would occur the way He has fore-ordained them to happen. I would imagine then that they would somehow be prevented from choosing B if he has already selected them to choose A.
How can you trust something which presents something which is logically flawed?The basis for the Christian belief is the Bible. It is not the world. That is why it seems you are having trouble understanding Christian beliefs. It does not adhere to worldly wisdom, though that is something which probably should not be entirely dispensed with being that we still have to live in this world. It is just not something one should use if they're trying to find their way to God, because it won't happen utilizing worldly logic. We trust in what the Bible tells us of God, not what the world tells us of God (though it can give us clues as to his personality and attributes, we realize that our perception of the world has been skewed by sin so it will not be for us the way it was intended to be).
I did have a free choice to either respond or not respond. You were merely making a prediction that I would respond. You didn't have infallible knowledge that I would respond.In the situation the dude clearly still saw that it would be best to choose A instead of B. like how someone may try to jump a shark but decides that not doing it would be best. Though if better clarification. You will choose to respond to this thread. Following your logic, you are a robot.
Obviously that's what would happen. If you knew infallibly what A/B choice I will make tomorrow - say you know I will choose A - and I instead choose B, then your foreknowledge has been compromised.This is a hilarious thread. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't think anyone has actually answered his question yet. I think what he wants desperately is for someone to say this:
"Then God would not be omniscient because He wouldn't have correctly predicted what would happen."
Really? He knows absolutely everything? Just how did he get this knowledge?And yet the very problem is that this wouldn't happen. God is omniscient. That means He is all-knowing. Which means that He knows everything.
What if on day 1, God tells Pete what his freely made day 2 A/B choice will be. He tells him it will be A. Pete then attempts to freely choose B. What will happen?He doesn't exist in time as we do. He already exists in tomorrow, two days after tomorrow, and yesterday. He is not only everywhere, but also everywhen. (Omnichronological?) I realize that's not a word, but what it means is that at every single moment He exists at every single moment in our time. He knows exactly what you will do.
How does he get this knowledge? Is it through observation? Or through prediction? Or some other way?You choose, but He already knows what you've chosen, because He is without time.
If he knows everything, then he wouldn't really be predicting things.He already knows what will happen, and His divine plan has already accounted for your action. Your action was free will. But it was also predicted by God.
Agree with #1How it would happen is:
1) Variable X must equal variable Y
2) On day 1, variable X has the value of Y on day 2
3) On day 1, variable Y doesn't have a value
4) On day 2, variable Y can be freely assigned the value of either A or B
Then what happens if God tells Pete on day 1 what his freely made day 2 A/B choice will be?What happens in between, before, and after these events is that God simultaneously sees your action on Day 2, having been freely assigned, and thus X is equal to what Y will be, since God exists in day 1 and day 2 simultaneously.
If Pete can freely choose A or B, then he can choose either A or B - regardless if anyone or anything has fore-ordained this choice for Pete.
Why would theology be the way to find an answer? Why not science?
You've contradicted yourself. If he can theoretically choose B, then he can choose B. Don't say he can choose B and say he can't choose B.
That's not the situation I'm talking about. I'm talking about a human who is faced with an upcoming decision between A or B - which can be freely made with absolutely nothing impeding the decision.
Then what do you suppose Pete would feel/experience when he attempts to choose B if God has already told him he will choose A?
How can you trust something which presents something which is logically flawed?
Really? He knows absolutely everything? Just how did he get this knowledge?
Can you communicate back and forth with God?
Does God want me to believe he exists?
How does he get this knowledge? Is it through observation? Or through prediction? Or some other way?
If he knows everything, then he wouldn't really be predicting things.
Agree with #1
With respect to #2, does variable X have a fixed value on day 1? (e.g. if it were asked on day 1, "Does God know what Pete's day 2 A/B choice is?", would the answer be YES?)
If variable Y can be freely assigned the value of either A or B on day 2 AND is equal to variable X, then variable X cannot have a value at any point in time prior to day 2.
Then what happens if God tells Pete on day 1 what his freely made day 2 A/B choice will be?
Obviously that's what would happen. If you knew infallibly what A/B choice I will make tomorrow - say you know I will choose A - and I instead choose B, then your foreknowledge has been compromised.
Really? He knows absolutely everything? Just how did he get this knowledge?
Can you communicate back and forth with God?
Does God want me to believe he exists?
What if on day 1, God tells Pete what his freely made day 2 A/B choice will be. He tells him it will be A. Pete then attempts to freely choose B. What will happen?
1) Will God's omniscience be compromised
2) Will Pete somehow be prevented from choosing B (if so, what would Pete experience as he attempts to choose B?)
Pete will not choose B, because God has already seen the result of that action. God told Pete, and He knew that His prediction would be correct because His prediction was the answer Pete chose even after being told what His answer would be. There are no 'alternate universes' or 'alternate timelines'. There is one timeline, and it has already been set in stone. It's like writing on paper and filling the whole page up. There's no room for anything different. Why? Not because nobody can act out of free will, but because they already expressed their free will, drew what they would, and now they've completed the page.
How does he get this knowledge? Is it through observation? Or through prediction? Or some other way?
He is the creator of the Universe and therefore knows everything that happens in it. He is not only in every single place at once but also in every single period of time at once.
If he knows everything, then he wouldn't really be predicting things.
Agree with #1
With respect to #2, does variable X have a fixed value on day 1? (e.g. if it were asked on day 1, "Does God know what Pete's day 2 A/B choice is?", would the answer be YES?)
If variable Y can be freely assigned the value of either A or B on day 2 AND is equal to variable X, then variable X cannot have a value at any point in time prior to day 2.
Think of it this way. God doesn't exist in our timeline. To put it simpler, it's like He's watching a movie on a giant TV screen. Perhaps a hundred feet tall. It has every single part of the movie playing at once. He thus knows what is going to happen at 7 minutes even though He's also watching at 3 minutes. It's a bad analogy, but the point is that He has access to every single moment of time at once. He doesn't exist in time. There is no 'day 1' or 'day 2' for him. He exists in Day X, where X = all the numbers between negative infinity and positive infinity simultaneously. Thus X is anything you want it to be + all the other numbers. What this means is that the variable X is fixed to the value of the variable Y because you've already made your choice. He knows what choice you've made tomorrow, and regardless of anything you do, you cannot change your choice. Not because you're a robot, but because He already knows exactly what you're going to do. You haven't been programmed, but your actions have been correctly predicted.
Then what happens if God tells Pete on day 1 what his freely made day 2 A/B choice will be?
Pete would choose that choice, because Pete's answer occurred after he had already been told by God that he would choose that choice. It's a circle. The Chicken lays an egg and the egg turns into a chicken. You can't trace the beginning of the cycle, because it's continuous and neither ends nor begins.
It has been a hundred years now since Einstein wrote his theory of Relativity and all the scientific experiment so far have only supported this theory, so time seems to be relative.If Pete can freely choose A or B, then he can choose either A or B - regardless if anyone or anything has fore-ordained this choice for Pete.
Why would theology be the way to find an answer? Why not science?
You've contradicted yourself. If he can theoretically choose B, then he can choose B. Don't say he can choose B and say he can't choose B.
That's not the situation I'm talking about. I'm talking about a human who is faced with an upcoming decision between A or B - which can be freely made with absolutely nothing impeding the decision.
Try it yourself. Go to your kitchen/dining room and in it you may find two apples. You can freely choose to eat either apple A or apple B. If you choose apple A, there was nothing preventing you from choosing apple B. If you choose apple B, there was nothing preventing you from choosing apple A. Up until the time you choose apple A, you still could have chosen apple B.
When you (or someone else) posits a god that possesses logically impossible characteristics, it is not a choice I make to not believe this god exists. I let logic do the dirty work and I merely respond to what logic says.
Then what do you suppose Pete would feel/experience when he attempts to choose B if God has already told him he will choose A?
How can you trust something which presents something which is logically flawed?
If that's true, then variable Y (Pete's day 2 A/B choice) doesn't get a value until the moment Pete makes his choice.Fore-ordination has to do with what happens, not what can happen. He can choose either A or B. Ultimately, what he will choose will be whatever God has fore-ordained for Him.
Do you realize that many things which were once explained with a theological answer are now explained with a scientific answer. However, the quantity of things which were once explained with a scientific answer and are now explained with a theological answer is zero.Because science does not provide us knowledge of the spiritual world, of God; it only provides us knowledge of this world which ultimately means nothing (it also gives us corrupted clues of the image of God, images which have been corrupted by sin).
This isn't about what he does choose. It's about what he is capable of choosing. If God's day 1 knowledge (variable X) of Pete's day 2 A/B choice (variable Y) is that Pete will choose A and Pete attempts to choose B, what will happen? If he can't freely choose B, then you've presented a strawman argument, as I already said Pete's day 2 A/B choice is freely made. To say he can choose B, but he won't choose B, is a non-answer, as the question is what will happen if he does choose B.He can, but he won't.You've contradicted yourself. If he can theoretically choose B, then he can choose B. Don't say he can choose B and say he can't choose B.
If Pete makes a day 2 A/B choice of B, at what point in time does God get this knowledge?It can be freely made. It will be freely made according to whatever God has fore-ordained to happen.
If what God has fore-ordained for Pete is a result of Pete's day 2 A/B choice, then up until Pete makes his day 2 A/B choice, God hasn't yet fore-ordained anything with respect to Pete's day 2 A/B choice.He will feel whatever he feels. If he acts as though he wants to go after the one he thinks God has not fore-ordained for him, then he is acting out what God has fore-ordained for him. Ultimately, whatever he does will be whatever it is that God has fore-ordained for him.
Why do you worship God?Because I do not worship logic. I worship God.
Did God have choices with respect to how everything would be arranged?Because He created everything. He has arranged all the events to happen in the way that they happen.Really? He knows absolutely everything? Just how did he get this knowledge?
Do you believe your God loves everyone? If so, why would he not wish for me to believe he exists? If not, why is he worthy of worship?No. We can attempt to communicate to God, but we can never apprehend Him. He can only condescend to us.Can you communicate back and forth with God?
Does God want me to believe he exists?
I don't know if He wants you to believe in Him. It seems that, at least at the moment, He does not wish it for whatever purpose.
Really? So when Pete freely chooses B on day 2, that's not really a freely made choice. By your logic, he's just a robot who is programmed to feel as if he's making a freely made choice. Just how do you come to this belief system? Do you think scientists would agree this is how things happen?He gets this knowledge because He has determined the events in the way they will unfold. He doesn't predict anything.How does he get this knowledge? Is it through observation? Or through prediction? Or some other way?
If he knows everything, then he wouldn't really be predicting things.
Let's backpedal a little bit. If it were asked, "on day 1, does God know infallibly what Pete's day 2 A/B choice is?", would the answer be yes? If so, then variable X (God's day 1 knowledge of Pete's day 2 a/b choice) MUST have a value on day 1. Since Pete can freely choose A or B on day 2, there are four possible scenarios with respect to every A/B choice:You are still looking at the events and God's fore-knowledge of them as though both are bound by time.Agree with #1
With respect to #2, does variable X have a fixed value on day 1? (e.g. if it were asked on day 1, "Does God know what Pete's day 2 A/B choice is?", would the answer be YES?)
If variable Y can be freely assigned the value of either A or B on day 2 AND is equal to variable X, then variable X cannot have a value at any point in time prior to day 2.
If you consider a non-answer an answer, then yes, you've answered the question.I've already answered the question. It will happen in the way that God has fore-ordained it to happen.Then what happens if God tells Pete on day 1 what his freely made day 2 A/B choice will be?
If that's true, then variable Y (Pete's day 2 A/B choice) doesn't get a value until the moment Pete makes his choice.
Do you realize that many things which were once explained with a theological answer are now explained with a scientific answer. However, the quantity of things which were once explained with a scientific answer and are now explained with a theological answer is zero.
This isn't about what he does choose. It's about what he is capable of choosing. If God's day 1 knowledge (variable X) of Pete's day 2 A/B choice (variable Y) is that Pete will choose A and Pete attempts to choose B, what will happen? If he can't freely choose B, then you've presented a strawman argument, as I already said Pete's day 2 A/B choice is freely made. To say he can choose B, but he won't choose B, is a non-answer, as the question is what will happen if he does choose B.
If Pete makes a day 2 A/B choice of B, at what point in time does God get this knowledge?
Your timeline appears to be this:
First: Pete makes his day 2 A/B choice
Second: God fore-ordaines Pete's day 2 A/B choice based on what Pete's day 2 A/B choice is.
Why do you worship God?
Do you believe God is capable of doing anything?
Do you believe God loves everyone?
So you are saying the first thing that happens is Pete freely makes his day 2 A/B choice. Then God gets this knowledge as a result of Pete's choice. Am I correct?The God of the future knows historically every free will choice you made and can send that information back to Himself (maybe through a wormhole type mechanism) to Himself in your past, so now God of the past knows all your free will choices you will make (in your future, but you have already made in the past for the God of the future),so it is really not future for God.
Are you aware it is logically impossible for God to love everyone and be capable of doing anything if there is mass suffering and/or mass calamity.This is open to much debate and I am leaning toward that He does not. He specifically states in the Bible that He does not when He says that He hated Esau. I may be incorrect, but it seems to me that this would not be the only person He hated. One of the harsh doctrines of my faith is that God has fore-ordained some to ever-lasting death. I don't care to think about this because it goes against what I understand of God and my experience of Him, yet often the truth is harsh. Because of the harshness of this doctrine, it has been softened or disregarded over the years by my faith (and in other sects of my faith it has been totally discarded for the idea of universal reconciliation which is a much easier idea to accept for someone who believes God is all-merciful, loving, and compassionate) just because it is something which, in our minds, is incompatible with God's abounding love, mercy, and compassion.
As humans, we can not understand how God can not love everyone (if we do believe in God); we look at people who are typically considered "evil" in this society and we can understand why we can hate them, but surely God, in all His mercy and compassion can still love them. I feel we think this way because we are rooted in our human natures and it is impossible for us to get outside of them and have a clear understanding of God's love and justice.
Did God have choices with respect to how everything would be arranged?
Do you believe your God loves everyone? If not, why is he worthy of worship?
So when Pete freely chooses B on day 2, that's not really a freely made choice. By your logic, he's just a robot who is programmed to feel as if he's making a freely made choice. Just how do you come to this belief system? Do you think scientists would agree this is how things happen?
Let's backpedal a little bit. If it were asked, "on day 1, does God know infallibly what Pete's day 2 A/B choice is?", would the answer be yes? If so, then variable X (God's day 1 knowledge of Pete's day 2 a/b choice) MUST have a value on day 1. Since Pete can freely choose A or B on day 2, there are four possible scenarios with respect to every A/B choice:
1) Variable X = A; Variable Y = A (God's foreknowledge is not compromised)
2) Variable X = B; Variable Y = B (God's foreknowledge is not compromised)
3) Variable X = A; Variable Y = B (God's foreknowledge IS compromised)
4) Variable X = B; Variable Y = A (God's foreknowledge IS compromised)
Since we are talking about a free will agent who can freely make choices, then #3 and #4 MUST be possible. Therefore it remains to be answered, what will happen if God knows on day 1 that Pete will make a freely made day 2 A/B choice of A, but Pete instead chooses B?
If you consider a non-answer an answer, then yes, you've answered the question.
As you seem to be having difficulty with the question, I'll rephrase it: What would happen if God's foreknowledge were compromised through the freely made choice of a human?
Are you aware that would not be possible if God knows everything? If God knows everything, then he would know what his yet to be made choices will be. For example, if God knows he will choose A out of an A/B choice and has a choice to choose either A or B, then to choose B, he would have to jeopardize his knowledge of everything. Or he could be precluded from choosing B, in which he wouldn't be able to choose B and thus wouldn't be all-powerful.I imagine He did since He created everything.Did God have choices with respect to how everything would be arranged?
Would it not have been easier to simply type "yes" or "no" rather than "See my previous answer for the question as to whether God loves everyone."?See my previous answer for the question as to whether God loves everyone. I can't answer the question as to why He is worthy of worship, that is something you must come to on your own. I believe He is based on my experience of Him. For me, He does not have to fit into what I can logically understand for me to worship Him. I suppose, and it does seem like, there are others who do not feel this way.Do you believe your God loves everyone? If not, why is he worthy of worship?
What do you suppose is a more reliable guide to how the world works?It does seem like we are just programmed to do something and it is a great mystery as to how it can not be that way. This belief system is based on the Bible which states that God has fore-ordained everything and that we make free choices. It doesn't say how this is possible. I do not think scientists would agree that this is so since it is my understanding that they utilize their understanding of things from the world and not the Bible.So when Pete freely chooses B on day 2, that's not really a freely made choice. By your logic, he's just a robot who is programmed to feel as if he's making a freely made choice. Just how do you come to this belief system? Do you think scientists would agree this is how things happen?
Once again, what will happen if God knows on day 1 that Pete will make a freely made day 2 A/B choice of A, but Pete instead chooses B? If you don't know, then just say so. If you do know, please share with me what would happen. Thanks!I think we've covered this in my previous answer that God' fore-ordination of our free choices can only be a non-answer according to worldly logic. The two concepts are not logically compatible with each other.Let's backpedal a little bit. If it were asked, "on day 1, does God know infallibly what Pete's day 2 A/B choice is?", would the answer be yes? If so, then variable X (God's day 1 knowledge of Pete's day 2 a/b choice) MUST have a value on day 1. Since Pete can freely choose A or B on day 2, there are four possible scenarios with respect to every A/B choice:
1) Variable X = A; Variable Y = A (God's foreknowledge is not compromised)
2) Variable X = B; Variable Y = B (God's foreknowledge is not compromised)
3) Variable X = A; Variable Y = B (God's foreknowledge IS compromised)
4) Variable X = B; Variable Y = A (God's foreknowledge IS compromised)
Since we are talking about a free will agent who can freely make choices, then #3 and #4 MUST be possible. Therefore it remains to be answered, what will happen if God knows on day 1 that Pete will make a freely made day 2 A/B choice of A, but Pete instead chooses B?
If you consider a non-answer an answer, then yes, you've answered the question.
If God's foreknowledge can't be compromised, then either:I have no difficulty with the question, it is just not answerable according to any worldly logic. God's foreknowledge can not be compromised since He has pre-determined everything and we all make free choices. That's the only answer I have at the moment and have stated it that way over and over again, and I'm sure I'll keep stating it over and over again from the looks of things.As you seem to be having difficulty with the question, I'll rephrase it: What would happen if God's foreknowledge were compromised through the freely made choice of a human?
Are you aware that would not be possible if God knows everything? If God knows everything, then he would know what his yet to be made choices will be. For example, if God knows he will choose A out of an A/B choice and has a choice to choose either A or B, then to choose B, he would have to jeopardize his knowledge of everything. Or he could be precluded from choosing B, in which he wouldn't be able to choose B and thus wouldn't be all-powerful.
Would it not have been easier to simply type "yes" or "no" rather than "See my previous answer for the question as to whether God loves everyone."?
Again: Do you believe your God loves everyone? (this question should require either two or three keystrokes)
1) I'm not asking why he is worthy of my worship. I'm asking why he is worthy of anyone's worship.
2) Why are you willing to worship something which is capable of preventing mass suffering but does absolutely nothing about it?
What do you suppose is a more reliable guide to how the world works?
A) a book which was written some 2,000 years ago by authors whose credibility cannot be verified
B) the studies of advanced modern science of the 21st century?
Once again, what will happen if God knows on day 1 that Pete will make a freely made day 2 A/B choice of A, but Pete instead chooses B? If you don't know, then just say so. If you do know, please share with me what would happen. Thanks!
If God's foreknowledge can't be compromised, then either:
A) God doesn't have infallible foreknowledge
B) Humans and God can't make freely made choices
Since you already asserted that God can make choices, then you must agree that God doesn't have infallible foreknowledge. Is that correct? Or do you wish to retract your assertion that God can make choices?
God is in control of what you can do. So, you can't do other than what God knows you will do. Because He knows because He controls!Let's say on day 1, God knows I will choose A out of a day 2 A/B choice. When day 2 comes around, I freely choose B instead of A. What happens to God's foreknowledge that I would choose A?
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