What I don't understand about the arguement for Abortion.

[purpledolphin8402]

Notice brain waves develop at 6 weeks.

You are more than welcome to produce a development chart from a scientific source to refute this chart.

From the Mayo Clinic fetal development in the first trimester:

Weeks 1 and 2: Getting ready

It might seem strange, but you're not actually pregnant the first week or two of the time allotted to your pregnancy. Yes, you read that correctly!
Conception typically occurs about two weeks after your period begins. To calculate your due date, your health care provider will count ahead 40 weeks from the start of your last period. This means your period is counted as part of your pregnancy — even though you weren't pregnant at the time.
Week 3: Fertilization

Fertilization and implantation
The sperm and egg unite in one of your fallopian tubes to form a one-celled entity called a zygote. If more than one egg is released and fertilized, you may have multiple zygotes.
The zygote has 46 chromosomes — 23 from you and 23 from your partner. These chromosomes will help determine your baby's sex, traits such as eye and hair color, and, to some extent, personality and intelligence.
Soon after fertilization, the zygote travels down the fallopian tube toward the uterus. At the same time, it will begin dividing rapidly to form a cluster of cells resembling a tiny raspberry. The inner group of cells will become the embryo. The outer group of cells will become the membranes that nourish and protect it.
Week 4: Implantation

By the time it reaches the uterus, the rapidly dividing ball of cells — now known as a blastocyst — has separated into two sections. The inner group of cells will become the embryo. The outer group of cells will become the membranes that nourish and protect it. On contact, it will burrow into the uterine wall for nourishment. This process is called implantation. The placenta, which will nourish your baby throughout the pregnancy, also begins to form.
Week 5: The embryonic period begins

Fetal development three weeks after conception
The fifth week of pregnancy, or the third week after conception, marks the beginning of the embryonic period. This is when the baby's brain, spinal cord, heart and other organs begin to form.
The embryo is now made of three layers. The top layer — the ectoderm — will give rise to your baby's outermost layer of skin, central and peripheral nervous systems, eyes, inner ear, and many connective tissues.
Your baby's heart and a primitive circulatory system will form in the middle layer of cells — the mesoderm. This layer of cells will also serve as the foundation for your baby's bones, muscles, kidneys and much of the reproductive system.
The inner layer of cells — the endoderm — will become a simple tube lined with mucous membranes. Your baby's lungs, intestines and bladder will develop here.
By the end of this week, your baby is likely about the size of the tip of a pen.
Week 6: The neural tube closes

Fetal development four weeks after conception
Growth is rapid this week. Just four weeks after conception, the neural tube along your baby's back is closing and your baby's heart is pumping blood.
Basic facial features will begin to appear, including passageways that will make up the inner ear and arches that will contribute to the jaw. Your baby's body begins to take on a C-shaped curvature. Small buds will soon become arms and legs.



Week 7: Baby's head develops

Fetal development five weeks after conception
Seven weeks into your pregnancy, or five weeks after conception, your baby's brain and face are rapidly developing. Tiny nostrils become visible, and the eye lenses begin to form. The arm buds that sprouted last week now take on the shape of paddles.
By the end of this week, your baby might be a little bigger than the top of a pencil eraser.
Week 8: Baby's eyes are visible

Fetal development six weeks after conception
Eight weeks into your pregnancy, or six weeks after conception, your baby's arms and legs are growing longer, and fingers have begun to form. The shell-shaped parts of your baby's ears also are forming, and your baby's eyes are visible. The upper lip and nose have formed. The trunk of your baby's body is beginning to straighten.
By the end of this week, your baby might be about 1/2 inch (11 to 14 millimeters) long.
Week 9: Baby's toes form

Fetal development seven weeks after conception
In the ninth week of pregnancy, or seven weeks after conception, your baby's arms grow, develop bones and bend at the elbows. Toes form, and your baby's eyelids and ears continue developing.
By the end of this week, your baby might be about 3/4 inch (18 to 22 millimeters) long.
Week 10: Baby's neck begins to develop

Fetal development eight weeks after conception
By the 10th week of pregnancy, or eight weeks after conception, your baby's head has become more round. The neck begins to develop, and your baby's eyelids begin to close to protect his or her developing eyes.
Week 11: Baby's genitals develop

At the beginning of the 11th week of pregnancy, or the ninth week after conception, your baby's head still makes up about half of its length. However, your baby's body is about to catch up, growing rapidly in the coming weeks.
Your baby is now officially described as a fetus. This week your baby's eyes are widely separated, the eyelids fused and the ears low set. Red blood cells are beginning to form in your baby's liver. By the end of this week, your baby's external genitalia will start developing into a penis or [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] and labia majora.
By now your baby might measure about 2 inches (50 millimeters) long from crown to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] and weigh almost 1/3 ounce (8 grams).
Week 12: Baby's fingernails develop

Fetal development 10 weeks after conception
Twelve weeks into your pregnancy, or 10 weeks after conception, your baby is developing fingernails. Your baby's face now has a human profile.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/prenatal-care/PR00112

 

[mathetes123]

From the Mayo Clinic fetal development in the first trimester:

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By posting this are you making a case for or against abortion as the pictures make it quite clear just how far developed the baby is in the first trimester. It is clearly not just a blob of tissue.

 

[SaraJarvis]

By posting this are you making a case for or against abortion as the pictures make it quite clear just how far developed the baby is in the first trimester. It is clearly not just a blob of tissue.

If you compare it to the chart that you posted, then you will notice some differences. Fingernails, for instance. Your chart stated that in week 6 fingernails begin to develop. This chart states that they don't develop until week 12.

 

[purpledolphin8402]

By posting this are you making a case for or against abortion as the pictures make it quite clear just how far developed the baby is in the first trimester. It is clearly not just a blob of tissue.

Neither. You asked for a scientific source to refute your chart. I provided it. Obviously you didn't read it. Your source claimed that there was brain activity at 6 weeks and fingers at 7. By 7 weeks the head is just starting to form and there are no fingers. The fetus is only barely the size of a pencil eraser. If you want accurate fetal development, go to a medical site, not a christian or pro-life site. I've seen where they show pics of a 12 week fetus and say it's only 4 weeks into development. Also, a lot of pics they show aren't even of abortions, but miscarriages.

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

True Christians do not support abortion on demand because abortion is murder unless the mother's life is in danger and the baby is too young to survive.

 

[Trogool]

True Christians do not support abortion on demand because abortion is murder unless the mother's life is in danger and the baby is too young to survive.

Cool story bro.

 

[Trogool]

By posting this are you making a case for or against abortion as the pictures make it quite clear just how far developed the baby is in the first trimester. It is clearly not just a blob of tissue.

Are you seriously relying on gross morphology to make an argument for embryological development? LOL.

 

[purpledolphin8402]

Notice brain waves develop at 6 weeks.

You are more than welcome to produce a development chart from a scientific source to refute this chart.

Impossible. The "brain" at that point is smaller than the head of a pin. The paper that was used for that information published by Dr. H. Hamlin who claimed that EEG picked up brain waves in a 6 week old fetus, was later debunked. Brain waves are not detected until between 16-20 weeks of pregnancy.

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

Cool story bro.

Whatever.

 

[mathetes123]

Impossible. The "brain" at that point is smaller than the head of a pin. The paper that was used for that information published by Dr. H. Hamlin who claimed that EEG picked up brain waves in a 6 week old fetus, was later debunked. Brain waves are not detected until between 16-20 weeks of pregnancy.

I would first ask that you provide links to support your assertions. If what you say is true, would you support laws to make abortion illegal after 16 weeks?

 

[SaraJarvis]

It greatly amuses me how any evidence posted by those for abortion, is entirely overlooked. I think you'll find an awful lot of information about a page back, that I found for you (after you repeatedly asked me). This was then ignored. That evidence combined with the above chart should answer some of your questions. Go on, have a read. No one will smite you down.

 

[julian the apostate]

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Many protestants before they realized what a great fundraising tool abortion was, used to take the above position regarding abortion, something like viability.
there is a difference between a zygote and a kindergartner

 

[technofox]

It is morally wrong to kill an unborn child because it deprives that being of its future, whatever that future may be, and unlike aborting under certain circumstances, we have no right to say whether or not a person will lead a happy life and terminate their life based on that inference.

I'll put a note here. A woman who is has been raped is under no moral obligation to carry the child. To do so would be incredibly generous of her.

On that note, what if her life was in real mortal peril? Its a tough decision. A decision that should lay with her alone, and a decision she can make free of the scorn of others.

Genetic defects? Malformed? Certainly up to the woman(and her husband). At that point I feel we should step aside and allow abortion as a viable medical procedure.

^This is probably the most rational statement I have ever read.

Personally I am against abortion as a form of birth control; however, I am supportive of a woman's choice in terms of medical necessity, rape, or incest.

As for aborting a child with severe medical abnormalities, that is a tough one that I have never thought of; especially in the case of the expense and resources required to support that child on not only the family, but society as a whole. What are your thoughts?

I may start a thread later today on this to get both conservative and liberal viewpoints on the above issue. Personally I can't decide what I would do in that situation. My gf is pro-choice all the way, except in marriage, then she shares the same views as I currebtly hold; however, I ask her to see what her POV is on abortion of a severely handicaped child.

 

[julian the apostate]

that is fine as a personal conviction and I wish you well

 

[SaraJarvis]

The thing is, abortion isn't always used as birth control. Yes, there are women out there who don't take the right precautions, and say "Nevermind, I'll have an abortion", which is just ridiculous, because it should be the last thing on the list, when a failure in contraception occurs. Most women who have abortions have been using either the pill or condoms. Neither are 100% effective, and the woman in question shouldn't have to pay the price for these contraceptive failures. Many women have very good reasons not to become pregnant; they could be underage, in school, university, beginning a career, in the prime of their career, or very poor and unable to afford a child. A woman should not be forced to bear the burden of a contraceptive mishap. Abortion is an ordeal in itself, and even if the woman in question has used it as a form of birth control, she will definitely not wish to go through that agony again, and attempt to take more control over those aspects of her sex life.

 

[technofox]

The thing is, abortion isn't always used as birth control. Yes, there are women out there who don't take the right precautions, and say "Nevermind, I'll have an abortion", which is just ridiculous, because it should be the last thing on the list, when a failure in contraception occurs. Most women who have abortions have been using either the pill or condoms. Neither are 100% effective, and the woman in question shouldn't have to pay the price for these contraceptive failures. Many women have very good reasons not to become pregnant; they could be underage, in school, university, beginning a career, in the prime of their career, or very poor and unable to afford a child. A woman should not be forced to bear the burden of a contraceptive mishap. Abortion is an ordeal in itself, and even if the woman in question has used it as a form of birth control, she will definitely not wish to go through that agony again, and attempt to take more control over those aspects of her sex life.

Very thought provoking post. Especially the financial burden of raising children; however, the high costs of raising a child, in my option, is the fault of our society here in the USA. We lack universal health care and have the highest cost per capita in the world for health care. It's quite sad an unfortunately it's the poor and uneducated that tend to vote against universal health care, because of sound bites from Fox News or because they think they can't afford the higher taxes on their meager salaries.

 

[mathetes123]

The thing is, abortion isn't always used as birth control. Yes, there are women out there who don't take the right precautions, and say "Nevermind, I'll have an abortion", which is just ridiculous, because it should be the last thing on the list, when a failure in contraception occurs. Most women who have abortions have been using either the pill or condoms. Neither are 100% effective, and the woman in question shouldn't have to pay the price for these contraceptive failures. Many women have very good reasons not to become pregnant; they could be underage, in school, university, beginning a career, in the prime of their career, or very poor and unable to afford a child. A woman should not be forced to bear the burden of a contraceptive mishap. Abortion is an ordeal in itself, and even if the woman in question has used it as a form of birth control, she will definitely not wish to go through that agony again, and attempt to take more control over those aspects of her sex life.

Either abortion is right or wrong. You can't have it both ways. If it is wrong as a form of birth control, it is wrong in other circumstances.

 

[technofox]

Either abortion is right or wrong. You can't have it both ways. If it is wrong as a form of birth control, it is wrong in other circumstances.

Not everything is as black & white as it seems my friend. I am against it for the most part personally; however, the poster that you have responded to has a very good point.

Excluding rape, incest, and medical necessity; money is another major factor as to why abortions happen. This is the fault of our western society making health care and raising a child far to expensive than need be. If we can make raising kids less of a burden than currently, then you will see abortion rates drop dramatically.

Look at the abortion statistics, the largest numbers of abortions happen in states with the highest levels of poverty. Sadly much of this is found in the bible belt of the USA making Christians appear to be hypocrites. This one of the reasons why I believe universal health care may help save lives via reducing the expense of child birth and raising a child (i.e. reduces the rate of abortions).

 

[purpledolphin8402]

Either abortion is right or wrong. You can't have it both ways. If it is wrong as a form of birth control, it is wrong in other circumstances.

That's not true. It's wrong to take someone's life because you just feel like killing someone, but if someone is breaking into your home and about to kill you, is it wrong to kill them in self defense? As one poster already said, not everything is black and white. The case of the 9 year old girl in Brazil who was raped by her step-father comes to mind. She became pregnant with twins, and there was no way her little body could have handled that pregnancy without sever complications. She had an abortion. Are you implying that it would have better if that little girl died instead of having an abortion?

 

[SaraJarvis]

Very thought provoking post. Especially the financial burden of raising children; however, the high costs of raising a child, in my option, is the fault of our society here in the USA. We lack universal health care and have the highest cost per capita in the world for health care. It's quite sad an unfortunately it's the poor and uneducated that tend to vote against universal health care, because of sound bites from Fox News or because they think they can't afford the higher taxes on their meager salaries.

I fully agree with you when it comes to the healthcare issue. The mere thought of bringing a child into a world where a person barely has enough money to take care of themselves is petrifying. Unfortunately, they're fed all kinds of rubbish through the media, and are practically brainwashed by these ultra-conservative ideals. If money was the only issue preventing a woman from having a child, then universal healthcare and the like would most certainly aid them. Of course, there are many other issues, too, but money is a huge factor. For instance, there is no way I could have had a baby; I live off a student loan and my family are struggling to make ends meet on benefits. A baby just wouldn't have been possible.

Either abortion is right or wrong. You can't have it both ways. If it is wrong as a form of birth control, it is wrong in other circumstances.

I'm not trying to have it both ways. I'm offering you the bigger picture. When I say as a form of birth control, I mean if the woman was relying soley upon abortion, and not taking the pill or using condoms. As a form of birth control, it is uneducated. However, in the cases of younger women, this is due to the lack of sex education in schools, etc. I didn't say that it is wrong; I said it is ridiculous to rely upon abortion as a means of birth control - but not wrong. I would also like to state that it is only ridiculous if it is an informed, mature woman relying upon it as birth control. However, it is in no way wrong. No matter how she thinks, it is still her body and her life; therefore she has a right to do what she will.

Instead of all of these anti-abortion groups standing outside abortion clinics, and trying to humiliate and scare women; why don't they go and hand out free condoms in schools? Why don't they vote for proper healthcare? The most recent conservative argument I heard was "We shouldn't have to pay for women's birth control!". But they'll still howl that abortion is disgusting at the first chance they get. Now that is the epitome of hypocrisy.