What I don't understand about the arguement for Abortion.

[Blackwater Babe]

You don't get to decide who lives and who dies with philosophical arguments.

*gigglesnort* Classic!

 

[purpledolphin8402]

The reason that abortion is legal has not to do with scientific fact. It has everything to do with judicial bias. But that's for another thread.

Now you have changed the reasoning to justify abortion. It is tragic that some women go through a lot of difficult problems when pregnant, but if it is not life threatening to the mother then it does not justify abortion. This is why we need more professional help for pregnant women.

In the cases of rape or incest, both of these are very traumatic to the woman. But why should the unborn pay, with it's life, for the crime of the father?

Have you heard of Andrea Yates? She had severe mental problems and after having four children was told by her doctor not to have anymore children because it would bring on another episode of postpartum psychosis. She had told her husband that she no longer wanted to have sex with him because she didn't want to become pregnant and harm her children, but her husband said that it was their duty to procreate due to their religious beliefs. She had a fifth child, and then drowned all of her 5 children a few months later. Because of a forced pregnancy, 5 children were killed by their mother, a woman is now spending the rest of her life in a mental hospital, and a husband and father had his family tragically taken away from him and he has to live with that for the rest of their life.

Now, if for some reason Andrea had aborted her 5th child (although, that is a big IF that she would) and this whole situation was avoided, would that be justification enough? Or is this result of a forced pregnancy not "traumatic" enough for you?

 

[mathetes123]

These are entirely different things. I am against war and capital punishment, because it is the killing of an independent human being, with a brain, and the ability to function completely outside of the womb.

An embryo is entirely different. I have been over this on various occasions. You are obviously blind to the massive difference between a fetus with absolutely no consciousness, feelings, or senses, and a living, breathing, independent human being.

It is defined as human through genetics. Please, for your own sake; at least read up on the difference.

You keep changing the argument when reason fails you. Now the distinction is independence. Is a baby fresh out of the womb independent? Can it feed itself, walk, change its diaper, get a job?

 

[SaraJarvis]

You keep changing the argument when reason fails you. Now the distinction is independence. Is a baby fresh out of the womb independent? Can it feed itself, walk, change its diaper, get a job?

I’m not changing the argument, not at all. I have never once said that a fetus is not made of human DNA. That does not make it independent. A baby out of the womb is independent in the way that it can breathe, smell, see, touch, move and cry. It has to be fed, yes, but it is not reliant on the mother for that. Anyone can feed a baby. A fetus in the womb is dependent on the mother for everything.

Another faulty philosophical argument, "independent human being". I'm sure everyone has a different definition for "independent human being" just like "personhood".

I have never even heard of "independent human being" as justification for abortion.

Again, these types of philosophical arguments alway leave out someone of the human race.

What is defined as human through genetics? And what does it have to do with the justification for killing an innocent human being?

As has already been stated, a human being is something with a brain that has the ability to think. You’re saying that that argument is just a matter of philosophy, but frankly, that’s exactly what your doing yourself. You’re philosophizing about the “sin of the father”, and and “everything should have a chance to live!” That is your philosophy. It is not fact. That is your MORAL BELIEF….hence, a philosophy.

If a fetus shouldn't pay for the sin of the father, then why should a woman pay for the sin of a rapist?

What if a 13 year old girl was pregnant through rape? What if that 13 year-old girl was your daughter? You'd force her through hell?

It seems strange to me, that men are the main people against abortion. Yes, there's women too, but these men have no IDEA what pregnancy is like. Especially an unwanted one. Even if you do have those moral beliefs of yours, your own philosophy, no less, what gives you the right to have a say in what a woman does with her body?

Do you also fight against the death sentence? Go on rallies to prevent the war in Iraq? I doubt it.

 

[mathetes123]

I'm not changing the argument, not at all. I have never once said that a fetus is not made of human DNA. That does not make it independent. A baby out of the womb is independent in the way that it can breathe, smell, see, touch, move and cry. It has to be fed, yes, but it is not reliant on the mother for that. Anyone can feed a baby. A fetus in the womb is dependent on the mother for everything.

As has already been stated, a human being is something with a brain that has the ability to think. You're saying that that argument is just a matter of philosophy, but frankly, that's exactly what your doing yourself. You're philosophizing about the "sin of the father", and and "everything should have a chance to live!" That is your philosophy. It is not fact. That is your MORAL BELIEF....hence, a philosophy.

If a fetus shouldn't pay for the sin of the father, then why should a woman pay for the sin of a rapist?

What if a 13 year old girl was pregnant through rape? What if that 13 year-old girl was your daughter? You'd force her through hell?

It seems strange to me, that men are the main people against abortion. Yes, there's women too, but these men have no IDEA what pregnancy is like. Especially an unwanted one. Even if you do have those moral beliefs of yours, your own philosophy, no less, what gives you the right to have a say in what a woman does with her body?

Do you also fight against the death sentence? Go on rallies to prevent the war in Iraq? I doubt it.

You say a man has no business interjecting in this debate. In an abortion there are two human lives, one who can speak for themselves, and another who cannot. Using your reasoning, because you are not an unborn child, does that not disqualify you from advocating the taking of the life of an unborn child?

 

[SaraJarvis]

You say a man has no business interjecting in this debate. In an abortion there are two human lives, one who can speak for themselves, and another who cannot. Using your reasoning, because you are not an unborn child, does that not disqualify you from advocating the taking of the life of an unborn child?

That is absolutely ridiculous. A man has a right to his opinion, certainly, but what I am stating is that in the long run, they don't go through what a woman goes through, so their opinions hold less validity on this topic at hand.

You are ignoring everything else in my posts, and only commenting on that which you can twist, and turn into a ridiculous statement.

 

[TomZzyzx]

Have you heard of Andrea Yates? She had severe mental problems and after having four children was told by her doctor not to have anymore children because it would bring on another episode of postpartum psychosis. She had told her husband that she no longer wanted to have sex with him because she didn't want to become pregnant and harm her children, but her husband said that it was their duty to procreate due to their religious beliefs. She had a fifth child, and then drowned all of her 5 children a few months later. Because of a forced pregnancy, 5 children were killed by their mother, a woman is now spending the rest of her life in a mental hospital, and a husband and father had his family tragically taken away from him and he has to live with that for the rest of their life.

Now, if for some reason Andrea had aborted her 5th child (although, that is a big IF that she would) and this whole situation was avoided, would that be justification enough? Or is this result of a forced pregnancy not "traumatic" enough for you?

Again, it was terrible what happened to that family, but what happened to that family doesn't justify killing hundreds, thousands or millions of innocent human beings. There are a lot more abortions than women killing themselves or their kids.

 

[SaraJarvis]

Again, it was terrible what happened to that family, but what happened to that family doesn't justify killing hundreds, thousands or millions of innocent human beings. There are a lot more abortions than women killing themselves or their kids.

You don’t seem to understand what has been written, here. This is what happens when someone is denied abortion. If abortion was made illegal, then we would be seeing this happen right, left and in centre.

 

[TomZzyzx]

I'm not changing the argument, not at all. I have never once said that a fetus is not made of human DNA. That does not make it independent. A baby out of the womb is independent in the way that it can breathe, smell, see, touch, move and cry. It has to be fed, yes, but it is not reliant on the mother for that. Anyone can feed a baby. A fetus in the womb is dependent on the mother for everything.

As has already been stated, a human being is something with a brain that has the ability to think. You're saying that that argument is just a matter of philosophy, but frankly, that's exactly what your doing yourself. You're philosophizing about the "sin of the father", and and "everything should have a chance to live!" That is your philosophy. It is not fact. That is your MORAL BELIEF....hence, a philosophy.

If a fetus shouldn't pay for the sin of the father, then why should a woman pay for the sin of a rapist?

What if a 13 year old girl was pregnant through rape? What if that 13 year-old girl was your daughter? You'd force her through hell?

It seems strange to me, that men are the main people against abortion. Yes, there's women too, but these men have no IDEA what pregnancy is like. Especially an unwanted one. Even if you do have those moral beliefs of yours, your own philosophy, no less, what gives you the right to have a say in what a woman does with her body?

Do you also fight against the death sentence? Go on rallies to prevent the war in Iraq? I doubt it.

Yes, but what you have already stated is false. Science states that a human being starts at conception, you just refuse to accept it.

So let me get this straight, you don't believe that every human being has the right to life? So your a moral relativist? Not everyone should believe that killing an innocent human being is wrong and immoral.

Because the woman doesn't pay with her life. You advocate that the unborn pays with it's life for the sin of the father.

Not every woman believes getting pregnant through rape is "going through hell". It seems that you are falsely speaking for all women.

I've already answered your next question before, but since you like to repeat yourself here's my answer again. I don't have a right to tell a woman what to do with her body, but I do have a right to tell her that an abortion kills an innocent human being.

 

[TomZzyzx]

You don’t seem to understand what has been written, here. This is what happens when someone is denied abortion. If abortion was made illegal, then we would be seeing this happen right, left and in centre.

Your logic fails you. This did not happen when abortion was illegal. So saying this would "happen right, left and in centre" is just speculation. You have no proof for your statement.

 

[SaraJarvis]

Yes, but what you have already stated is false. Science states that a human being starts at conception, you just refuse to accept it.

So let me get this straight, you don't believe that every human being has the right to life? So your a moral relativist? Not everyone should believe that killing an innocent human being is wrong and immoral.

Because the woman doesn't pay with her life. You advocate that the unborn pays with it's life for the sin of the father.

Not every woman believes getting pregnant through rape is "going through hell". It seems that you are falsely speaking for all women.

I've already answered your next question before, but since you like to repeat yourself here's my answer again. I don't have a right to tell a woman what to do with her body, but I do have a right to tell her that an abortion kills an innocent human being.

Yes, but as I keep repeating, there is a difference between a fetus and a human being with a consciousness. I can’t really make that any clearer.

A human being that is capable of survival outside the mother’s womb, has a right to life. Or if the fetus inside the womb is wanted by the mother, then yes, it has a right to life. However, if the fetus is there and unwanted, considering the fact that it is only a few months old and not even bearing resemblance to a child, then the mother is within her rights to abort.

Have you spoken to women who get pregnant through rape? I’m sure there is a very small portion of women who would go through with it, however, I doubt that if you did a survey, you would get the answer “Yes, I want to keep the baby, and it doesn’t bother me that it’s been conceived through rape.”

Think about the backstreet abortions that took place before it was made legal. They were dangerous, and yet the women did it anyway. They also starved themselves, drank themselves senseless, and countless other things to abort the fetus. Many others ended up committing suicide. I have studied this topic in depth. Just because YOU haven’t seen it, or YOU haven’t read about it, doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen. Half of these cases weren’t even reported, especially if the woman belonged to a working-class family. No one would have cared.

 

[TomZzyzx]

Yes, but as I keep repeating, there is a difference between a fetus and a human being with a consciousness. I can’t really make that any clearer.

A human being that is capable of survival outside the mother’s womb, has a right to life. Or if the fetus inside the womb is wanted by the mother, then yes, it has a right to life. However, if the fetus is there and unwanted, considering the fact that it is only a few months old and not even bearing resemblance to a child, then the mother is within her rights to abort.

Have you spoken to women who get pregnant through rape? I’m sure there is a very small portion of women who would go through with it, however, I doubt that if you did a survey, you would get the answer “Yes, I want to keep the baby, and it doesn’t bother me that it’s been conceived through rape.”

Think about the backstreet abortions that took place before it was made legal. They were dangerous, and yet the women did it anyway. They also starved themselves, drank themselves senseless, and countless other things to abort the fetus. Many others ended up committing suicide. I have studied this topic in depth. Just because YOU haven’t seen it, or YOU haven’t read about it, doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen. Half of these cases weren’t even reported, especially if the woman belonged to a working-class family. No one would have cared.

And just like I keep repeating, I know that there is a difference between a fetus (which is a human being) and someone who is born (also a human being) with a consciousness. But lack of consciousness does not mean less of a human being.

So a newborn baby, who is still not capable of survival outside of the mothers womb, does not have a right to life? A mother should not have a right to kill her unborn child just because she doesn't want it no matter how old it is. And as a matter of fact, a few month unborn child resembles every other unborn child at that point of there development.

Yes I have, my wife, who wanted to keep her child but was told by her parents not to come home if she got pregnant. She now knows it was wrong to get an abortion. It doesn't matter how small a portion would go through with it, if it kills an innocent human being then it is wrong.

We shouldn't abort millions more innocent human beings just because some women go through difficult pregnancies.

 

[SaraJarvis]

And just like I keep repeating, I know that there is a difference between a fetus (which is a human being) and someone who is born (also a human being) with a consciousness. But lack of consciousness does not mean less of a human being.

So a newborn baby, who is still not capable of survival outside of the mothers womb, does not have a right to life? A mother should not have a right to kill her unborn child just because she doesn't want it no matter how old it is. And as a matter of fact, a few month unborn child resembles every other unborn child at that point of there development.

Yes I have, my wife, who wanted to keep her child but was told by her parents not to come home if she got pregnant. She now knows it was wrong to get an abortion. It doesn't matter how small a portion would go through with it, if it kills an innocent human being then it is wrong.

We shouldn't abort millions more innocent human beings just because some women go through difficult pregnancies.

A newborn baby is capable of life outside its mother’s womb; it can breathe, and is not reliant on only its mother to feed it and take care of it. It can survive without its mother’s body. A few month unborn child? I aborted at 7 weeks. I passed the fetus into a bowl, and inspected it. It did not in any way resemble a baby. You couldn’t even see the shape of its body, and that had nothing to do with the abortion itself; it was medical and an induced labour.

Your wife was raped? Well, her parents went about that in the wrong way. Poor woman. My dad was very caring, sat me down and asked what I wanted. I said I wanted a career, and for my family to benefit from it. He took me to the clinic and helped me through.

Some women? Well, if you were a woman then you’d understand the horror attached to an unwanted pregnancy.

 

[SharonL]

I miscarried at 12 weeks, the baby's head was formed, facial features were formed, eyes were there, arms and fingers - I could see the heartbeat in the soft spot in the head. I will still see my baby in Heaven.

 

[SaraJarvis]

I miscarried at 12 weeks, the baby's head was formed, facial features were formed, eyes were there, arms and fingers - I could see the heartbeat in the soft spot in the head. I will still see my baby in Heaven.

7 weeks is a lot different to 12 weeks. An abortion at 12 weeks would probably not be done using the abortion pill, as it the fetus has begun to form. A lot happens inside the womb in those extra 5 weeks.

It still doesn't mean that the fetus you miscarried had a consciousness. It was forming, but not fully formed.

 

[mathetes123]

7 weeks is a lot different to 12 weeks. An abortion at 12 weeks would probably not be done using the abortion pill, as it the fetus has begun to form. A lot happens inside the womb in those extra 5 weeks.

It still doesn't mean that the fetus you miscarried had a consciousness. It was forming, but not fully formed.

Fetal Development
From conception to birth


Illustration by R.K. O'Bannon Day 1: fertilization: all human chromosomes are present; unique human life begins.
Click photo to enlarge.
Day 6: embryo begins implantation in the uterus.

Day 22: heart begins to beat with the child's own blood, often a different type than the mothers'.

Week 3: By the end of third week the child's backbone spinal column and nervous system are forming. The liver, kidneys and intestines begin to take shape.

Week 4: By the end of week four the child is ten thousand times larger than the fertilized egg.

Week 5: Eyes, legs, and hands begin to develop.

Week 6: Brain waves are detectable; mouth and lips are present; fingernails are forming.

Week 7: Eyelids, and toes form, nose distinct. The baby is kicking and swimming.

Week 8: Every organ is in place, bones begin to replace cartilage, and fingerprints begin to form. By the 8th week the baby can begin to hear.



Click photo to enlarge
Weeks 9 and 10: Teeth begin to form, fingernails develop. The baby can turn his head, and frown. The baby can hiccup.

Weeks 10 and 11: The baby can "breathe" amniotic fluid and urinate. Week 11 the baby can grasp objects placed in its hand; all organ systems are functioning. The baby has a skeletal structure, nerves, and circulation.






Week 12: The baby has all of the parts necessary to experience pain, including nerves, spinal cord, and thalamus. Vocal cords are complete. The baby can suck its thumb.

Week 14: At this age, the heart pumps several quarts of blood through the body every day.

Week 15: The baby has an adult's taste buds.

Month 4: Bone Marrow is now beginning to form. The heart is pumping 25 quarts of blood a day. By the end of month 4 the baby will be 8-10 inches in length and will weigh up to half a pound.

Week 17: The baby can have dream (REM) sleep.
Week 19: Babies can routinely be saved at 21 to 22 weeks after fertilization, and sometimes they can be saved even younger.








Click photo to enlarge

Week 20: The earliest stage at which Partial birth abortions are performed. At 20 weeks the baby recognizes its' mothers voice.


Click photo to enlarge
Months 5 and 6: The baby practices breathing by inhaling amniotic fluid into its developing lungs. The baby will grasp at the umbilical cord when it feels it. Most mothers feel an increase in movement, kicking, and hiccups from the baby. Oil and sweat glands are now functioning. The baby is now twelve inches long or more, and weighs up to one and a half pounds.











Months 7 through 9: Eyeteeth are present. The baby opens and closes his eyes. The baby is using four of the five senses (vision, hearing, taste, and touch.) He knows the difference between waking and sleeping, and can relate to the moods of the mother. The baby's skin begins to thicken, and a layer of fat is produced and stored beneath the skin. Antibodies are built up, and the baby's heart begins to pump 300 gallons of blood per day. Approximately one week before the birth the baby stops growing, and "drops" usually head down into the pelvic cavity.

Sources Used:

Bergel, Gary (Produced by NRLC) "When You Were Formed in Secret." 1998.

Flanagan, Geraldine Lux. Beginning Life. The Marvelous Journey from Conception to Birth. New York: DK Publishing Inc., 1996.

Hopson, Janet L. Fetal Psychology. Oct. 1998. 07 Jan 2003.
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/tul/psychtoday9809.html.

Internet Sources:

"Fetal Development." 07 Jan 2003.
http://www.w-cpc.org/fetal1.html.

"When Does Life Begin? Abortion and Human Rights." National Right To Life.

 

[SaraJarvis]

Fetal Development
From conception to birth


Illustration by R.K. O'Bannon Day 1: fertilization: all human chromosomes are present; unique human life begins.
Click photo to enlarge.
Day 6: embryo begins implantation in the uterus.

Day 22: heart begins to beat with the child's own blood, often a different type than the mothers'.

Week 3: By the end of third week the child's backbone spinal column and nervous system are forming. The liver, kidneys and intestines begin to take shape.

Week 4: By the end of week four the child is ten thousand times larger than the fertilized egg.

Week 5: Eyes, legs, and hands begin to develop.

Week 6: Brain waves are detectable; mouth and lips are present; fingernails are forming.

Week 7: Eyelids, and toes form, nose distinct. The baby is kicking and swimming.

Week 8: Every organ is in place, bones begin to replace cartilage, and fingerprints begin to form. By the 8th week the baby can begin to hear.



Click photo to enlarge
Weeks 9 and 10: Teeth begin to form, fingernails develop. The baby can turn his head, and frown. The baby can hiccup.

Weeks 10 and 11: The baby can "breathe" amniotic fluid and urinate. Week 11 the baby can grasp objects placed in its hand; all organ systems are functioning. The baby has a skeletal structure, nerves, and circulation.






Week 12: The baby has all of the parts necessary to experience pain, including nerves, spinal cord, and thalamus. Vocal cords are complete. The baby can suck its thumb.

Week 14: At this age, the heart pumps several quarts of blood through the body every day.

Week 15: The baby has an adult's taste buds.

Month 4: Bone Marrow is now beginning to form. The heart is pumping 25 quarts of blood a day. By the end of month 4 the baby will be 8-10 inches in length and will weigh up to half a pound.

Week 17: The baby can have dream (REM) sleep.
Week 19: Babies can routinely be saved at 21 to 22 weeks after fertilization, and sometimes they can be saved even younger.








Click photo to enlarge

Week 20: The earliest stage at which Partial birth abortions are performed. At 20 weeks the baby recognizes its' mothers voice.


Click photo to enlarge
Months 5 and 6: The baby practices breathing by inhaling amniotic fluid into its developing lungs. The baby will grasp at the umbilical cord when it feels it. Most mothers feel an increase in movement, kicking, and hiccups from the baby. Oil and sweat glands are now functioning. The baby is now twelve inches long or more, and weighs up to one and a half pounds.











Months 7 through 9: Eyeteeth are present. The baby opens and closes his eyes. The baby is using four of the five senses (vision, hearing, taste, and touch.) He knows the difference between waking and sleeping, and can relate to the moods of the mother. The baby's skin begins to thicken, and a layer of fat is produced and stored beneath the skin. Antibodies are built up, and the baby's heart begins to pump 300 gallons of blood per day. Approximately one week before the birth the baby stops growing, and "drops" usually head down into the pelvic cavity.

Sources Used:

Bergel, Gary (Produced by NRLC) "When You Were Formed in Secret." 1998.

Flanagan, Geraldine Lux. Beginning Life. The Marvelous Journey from Conception to Birth. New York: DK Publishing Inc., 1996.

Hopson, Janet L. Fetal Psychology. Oct. 1998. 07 Jan 2003.
Fetal Psychology.

Internet Sources:

"Fetal Development." 07 Jan 2003.
http://www.w-cpc.org/fetal1.html.

"When Does Life Begin? Abortion and Human Rights." National Right To Life.

Funny, these articles are from Christian websites. They are deliberately aimed to misinform. When you present to me a piece of text that is not from a Christian website, then I will take you seriously.

By the way:

Week 7: Eyelids, and toes form, nose distinct. The baby is kicking and swimming.

Load of rubbish. I saw my scan, and I saw the fetus. It in no way had any of these things.

 

[mathetes123]

Funny, these articles are from Christian websites. They are deliberately aimed to misinform. When you present to me a piece of text that is not from a Christian website, then I will take you seriously.

By the way:

Load of rubbish. I saw my scan, and I saw the fetus. It in no way had any of these things.

Notice brain waves develop at 6 weeks.

You are more than welcome to produce a development chart from a scientific source to refute this chart.

 

[SaraJarvis]

Notice brain waves develop at 6 weeks.

You are more than welcome to produce a development chart from a scientific source to refute this chart.

The aim of the articles you have posted, is to inspire fear. The wording is twisted to personify the fetus. If there are fingers, then they are WEBBED. Note that this is missed out from the article, as it (rightly) makes it seem less of a person. The chart that you have produced is based on fact, but the wording has made it appear warped. Take away the personification of the article, and it seems a lot less shocking.



Now: "Does a fetus have rights? No. Legal rights are granted at birth, when the mother and the baby are clearly separated and protecting the rights of the baby would not limit the rights of the woman.".

"
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Fetuses are uniquely different from born human beings in major ways, which casts doubt on the claim that they can be classified as human beings. The most fundamental difference is that a fetus is totally dependent on a woman's body to survive. Anti-choicers might argue that born human beings can be entirely dependent on other people too, but the crucial difference is that they are not dependent on one, specific person to the exclusion of all others. Anybody can take care of a newborn infant (or disabled person), but only that pregnant woman can nurture her fetus. She can’t hire someone else to do it. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Another key difference is that a fetus doesn't just depend on a woman's body for survival, it actually resides inside her body. Human beings must, by definition, be separate individuals. They do not gain the status of human being by virtue of living inside the body of another human being—the very thought is inherently ridiculous, even offensive."

"[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Even if a fetus can be said to have a right to life, this does not include the right to use the body of another human being. For example, the state cannot force people to donate organs or blood, even to save someone's life. We are not obligated by law to risk our lives jumping into a river to save a drowning victim, noble as that might be. Therefore, even if a fetus has a right to life, a pregnant woman is not required to save it by loaning out her body for nine months against her will7. (In response, anti-choicers say that being pregnant is not the same as being a Good Samaritan, because the woman chose to have sex, voluntarily accepting the risk of pregnancy8. But sex is not a contract for pregnancy—people have a right to non-procreative sex9. Their argument is also sexist and puritanical because it punishes women, not men, for their sexual behaviour.) "

"[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Ultimately though, to have a "right to life" requires that one be an individual capable of living an independent existence. One must "get a life" before one has a "right to life." A fetus is not a separate individual—it lives inside a pregnant woman and depends on her for its growth. In fact, the biological definition of "parasite" fits the fetal mode of growth precisely, especially since pregnancy causes a major upset to a woman's body, just like a parasite does to its host. I'm not trying to disparage fetuses with the negative connotations of the word parasite; in fact, parasites and their hosts often enjoy mutually supportive relationships, and this obviously includes most pregnancies. However, the parasitic relationship of a fetus to a woman means that its continued existence requires her consent11—if she continues the pregnancy unwillingly, her rights and bodily integrity are violated."

[/FONT]

 

[SaraJarvis]

Also:

"In reviewing the neuroanatomical and physiological evidence in the fetus, it was apparent that connections from the periphery to the cortex are not intact before 24 weeks of gestation and, as most neuroscientists believe that the cortex is necessary for pain perception, it can be concluded that the fetus cannot experience pain in any sense prior to this gestation. After 24 weeks there is continuing development and elaboration of intracortical networks such that noxious stimuli in newborn preterm infants produce cortical responses. Such connections to the cortex are necessary for pain experience but not sufficient, as experience of external stimuli requires consciousness. Furthermore, there is increasing evidence that the fetus never experiences a state of true wakefulness in utero and is kept, by the presence of its chemical environment, in a continuous sleep-like unconsciousness or sedation. This state can suppress higher cortical activation in the presence of intrusive external stimuli. This observation highlights the important differences between fetal and neonatal life and the difficulties of extrapolating from observations made in newborn preterm infants to the fetus."

Fetal Awareness - Review of Research and Recommendations for Practice | Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists