What I don't understand about the arguement for Abortion.

[Tinker Grey]

Translation: Woe to those who disagree with me.

 

[mathetes123]

And there's nothing wrong with that.

Any Christian knows that as long as it's in the womb, it's a parasite, not a person; it's a choice, not a child. The anti-abortion position is anti-Christian, depraved, corrupt, perverse, immoral, and quite frankly the real anti-life position.

Psalms 139:13-16
For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them.

 

[TomZzyzx]

And there's nothing wrong with that.

Any Christian knows that as long as it's in the womb, it's a parasite, not a person; it's a choice, not a child. The anti-abortion position is anti-Christian, depraved, corrupt, perverse, immoral, and quite frankly the real anti-life position.

Most Christians don't believe this. There isn't a definitive definition of person or personhood, no one knows when the unborn becomes a person and no one ever will. Personhood is the worse way to determine if it's ok to kill a Human Being. And science has determined that the unborn is a Human Being at conception.

The pro-life position is the only position any Christian should have. See, I can give my opinion also.

 

[TomZzyzx]

Translation: Woe to those who disagree with me.

Woe to those who disagree with God.

 

[Blackwater Babe]

Woe to those who disagree with God.

Whom you just happen to know the mind of perfectly, I suppose?

 

[FrancesJames09]

And there's nothing wrong with that.

Any Christian knows that as long as it's in the womb, it's a parasite, not a person; it's a choice, not a child. The anti-abortion position is anti-Christian, depraved, corrupt, perverse, immoral, and quite frankly the real anti-life position.

Um, though I may be a pro-choice kinda' guy I wouldn't call an unborn child a parasite. Most of us who are pro-choice believe that life is sacred and are only pro-choice because we don't want to see women killing themselves in the midst of performing abortions on themselves.

Whom you just happen to know the mind of perfectly, I suppose?

Cheers. That's just what I was thinking.

 

[TomZzyzx]

Whom you just happen to know the mind of perfectly, I suppose?

I wouldn't say perfectly, but we do know what he has told us in 66 books.

 

[Blackwater Babe]

I wouldn't say perfectly, but we do know what he has told us in 66 books.

Right.

Except there are about a zillion different denominations of Christianity, all of whom differ as to what those 66 books mean. So again, my point holds.

Not to mention the minor fact that those 66 books are either silent regarding, or actually supportive of, abortion (in certain circumstances, at least).

But hey, let's not let facts get in the way of self-righteous self assuredness. Carry on.

 

[SharonL]

Um, though I may be a pro-choice kinda' guy I wouldn't call an unborn child a parasite. Most of us who are pro-choice believe that life is sacred and are only pro-choice because we don't want to see women killing themselves in the midst of performing abortions on themselves.




Cheers. That's just what I was thinking.

The mother may not be choosing to die in the act - but the baby certainly does not choose to die either.

 

[SharonL]

Right.

Except there are about a zillion different denominations of Christianity, all of whom differ as to what those 66 books mean. So again, my point holds.

Not to mention the minor fact that those 66 books are either silent regarding, or actually supportive of, abortion (in certain circumstances, at least).

But hey, let's not let facts get in the way of self-righteous self assuredness. Carry on.

What part of 'Thou shalt not kill' do you not understand.

 

[FrancesJames09]

The mother may not be choosing to die in the act - but the baby certainly does not choose to die either.

That's true, but I don't see why that should make me want to ban abortion. If I ban abortion, I'm placing women who would have abortion in difficult positions where they would probably end up harming themselves. In this case, there's nothing I can do to change a person's mind if they decide to have an abortion in which case I can either sit back and watch their desperation grow and see them hurt themselves or legalise abortion and save at least one life.

I would much rather increase social options and improve the living standards of the poor and see an end to abortion entirely. As it is the number of people having abortions isn't as much as it was.

 

[Blackwater Babe]

What part of 'Thou shalt not kill' do you not understand.

Cute, because that passage clearly refers to foetuses, given the ancient Hebrew's understanding of biological processes.

Or maybe, just maybe, that passage refers to sentient people, understood to be people at the time, (i.e. people who had already been born) and people who insist that ""thou shalt not kill" is relevent to a discussion on the Bible's stance to abortion are guilty of shoe horning? I'd suggest you research the Jewish understanding of when an unborn child is considered living, and thus able to be killed, since they are the ones for whom "thou shalt not kill" was written, and context is important.

FYI, I am very much pro life, but the fact of the matter is, that the Bible doe not condemn abortion the way it condemns, say, murder,or theft. And, as I mentioned earlier, there are numerous places where the Bible clearly supports or allows abortion in some circumstances.

 

[Blackwater Babe]

That's true, but I don't see why that should make me want to ban abortion. If I ban abortion, I'm placing women who would have abortion in difficult positions where they would probably end up harming themselves. In this case, there's nothing I can do to change a person's mind if they decide to have an abortion in which case I can either sit back and watch their desperation grow and see them hurt themselves or legalise abortion and save at least one life.

I would much rather increase social options and improve the living standards of the poor and see an end to abortion entirely. As it is the number of people having abortions isn't as much as it was.

There are fairly simple social programs that could make voluntary abortion very, very rare, but the sad fact is, the people who froth at the though of abortion, are equally opposed to implementing the necessary programs that would make it unnecessary.

 

[SharonL]

A baby is so precious to God even in the womb that He can fill them with the Holy Spirit...
Talking about John the Baptist, "and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit
even from his mother's womb." --Luke 1:15(NIV) There is no record of the
Holy Spirit ever filling anything but a person.

A baby is so precious to God - it says a life for a life if harm comes to the baby.
"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from
her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall surely be punished, according as
the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges
determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life..." -
-Exodus 21:22-25, King James Version.
"And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life."
(Exodus 21:22-23)

Striking down an innocent baby brings curses to that person.
"Cursed is he who accepts a bribe to strike down an innocent person." --
Deu 27:25 (NAS)
"..do not shed innocent blood..." --Jeremiah 7:6 (NIV)

From reading the bible we can come to the conclusion that God views
the unborn human child as a living person and the willful taking of that
life is murder.

 

[TomZzyzx]

Right.

Except there are about a zillion different denominations of Christianity, all of whom differ as to what those 66 books mean. So again, my point holds.

Not to mention the minor fact that those 66 books are either silent regarding, or actually supportive of, abortion (in certain circumstances, at least).

But hey, let's not let facts get in the way of self-righteous self assuredness. Carry on.

Most of the "zillion" denominations all agree on the essential doctrines of Christianity. But that's best left for a different thread.

As for abortion, I don't need the bible to prove that abortion is wrong and immoral. So if you would like to discuss the facts of abortion, like abortion kills an innocent Human Being, then I would be happy to converse with you.

Would you like to carry on?

 

[TomZzyzx]

Cute, because that passage clearly refers to foetuses, given the ancient Hebrew's understanding of biological processes.

Or maybe, just maybe, that passage refers to sentient people, understood to be people at the time, (i.e. people who had already been born) and people who insist that ""thou shalt not kill" is relevent to a discussion on the Bible's stance to abortion are guilty of shoe horning? I'd suggest you research the Jewish understanding of when an unborn child is considered living, and thus able to be killed, since they are the ones for whom "thou shalt not kill" was written, and context is important.

FYI, I am very much pro life, but the fact of the matter is, that the Bible doe not condemn abortion the way it condemns, say, murder,or theft. And, as I mentioned earlier, there are numerous places where the Bible clearly supports or allows abortion in some circumstances.

I know this isn't the thread for this discussion but where in the bible does it support or allow abortions?

 

[mathetes123]

Cute, because that passage clearly refers to foetuses, given the ancient Hebrew's understanding of biological processes.

Or maybe, just maybe, that passage refers to sentient people, understood to be people at the time, (i.e. people who had already been born) and people who insist that ""thou shalt not kill" is relevent to a discussion on the Bible's stance to abortion are guilty of shoe horning? I'd suggest you research the Jewish understanding of when an unborn child is considered living, and thus able to be killed, since they are the ones for whom "thou shalt not kill" was written, and context is important.

FYI, I am very much pro life, but the fact of the matter is, that the Bible doe not condemn abortion the way it condemns, say, murder,or theft. And, as I mentioned earlier, there are numerous places where the Bible clearly supports or allows abortion in some circumstances.

Please quote the verses which support abortion

 

[mathetes123]

Cute, because that passage clearly refers to foetuses, given the ancient Hebrew's understanding of biological processes.

Or maybe, just maybe, that passage refers to sentient people, understood to be people at the time, (i.e. people who had already been born) and people who insist that ""thou shalt not kill" is relevent to a discussion on the Bible's stance to abortion are guilty of shoe horning? I'd suggest you research the Jewish understanding of when an unborn child is considered living, and thus able to be killed, since they are the ones for whom "thou shalt not kill" was written, and context is important.

FYI, I am very much pro life, but the fact of the matter is, that the Bible doe not condemn abortion the way it condemns, say, murder,or theft. And, as I mentioned earlier, there are numerous places where the Bible clearly supports or allows abortion in some circumstances.

Didn't you just accuse someone else of knowing the mind of God perfectly and suggest we could not interpret what the bible says given the number of denominations, yet here you are saying what the bible "clearly supports"?

You can't have it both ways. Either words have meaning or they don't.

 

[Blackwater Babe]

Most of the "zillion" denominations all agree on the essential doctrines of Christianity. But that's best left for a different thread.

As for abortion, I don't need the bible to prove that abortion is wrong and immoral. So if you would like to discuss the facts of abortion, like abortion kills an innocent Human Being, then I would be happy to converse with you.

Would you like to carry on?

Happy to carry on.

While I, in fact, agree that abortion (in most cases) is wrong, I don't believe it kills a human being. A human organism, certainly, but I believe a human being is more than what is found in the uterus during gestation. Things like self awareness, experience and sentience are what make a human BEING, and they just aren't present in any form before week 20 gestation (and possibly much latter, depending on your definition)

 

[Blackwater Babe]

Didn't you just accuse someone else of knowing the mind of God perfectly and suggest we could not interpret what the bible says given the number of denominations, yet here you are saying what the bible "clearly supports"?

You can't have it both ways. Either words have meaning or they don't.

Cute. There are things the Bible is fairly unambiguous about, and then there is quite a bit of belief based on Biblical exegesis and convoluted "reasoning".

Also, you'll note, there is a difference between seeing what the Bible clearly says, and claiming to know the "mind of God". Bible=/= the mind of God, despite the weird independent RBP insistance to the contrary.