What I don't like about Calvary Chapel

[random person]

What do you think the words "last day" imply?

it is speaking about the last days of the jewish age aka the mosaic covenant.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

it is speaking about the last days of the jewish age aka the mosaic covenant.

No that's incorrect.

The verses I quoted do not say "last days" they say "last day"; their is no s at the end. Last day implies one singular day that will take place at the end of the age.

Here are the verses again in case you missed them:

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[random person]

No that's incorrect.

The verses I quoted do not say "last days" they say "last day"; their is no s at the end. Last day implies one singular day that will take place at the end of the age.

Here are the verses again in case you missed them:

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

yes but check out 1 corinthians 10:11; hebrews 1:2; and hebrews 9:26 at http://www.biblehub.com then click for the original greek translation of these verses.

are you telling me that the "last days" and "end of the age" are still ongoing for 2000 years now???

 

[GracetotheHumble]

are you telling me that the "last days" and "end of the age" are still ongoing for 2000 years now???

No, I'm not saying anything of the sort. Have you read my posts at all? I'm not talking about the "last days" plural; I'm talking about the last day, singular.

 

[random person]

No, I'm not saying anything of the sort. Have you read my posts at all? I'm not talking about the "last days" plural; I'm talking about the last day, singular.

yes the resurrection on last day however

christ spoke to disciples in the last days hebrews 1:2

and christ appeared once in the end of the age to die for our sins hebrews 9:26

so the "last days" and the "end of the age" have been running for 2,000 years now.

that is twice as long as the jews have had a kingdom of one sort or another in the holy land between 1000 bce to 70 ad.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

yes the resurrection on last day however

christ spoke to disciples in the last days hebrews 1:2

and christ appeared once in the end of the age to die for our sins hebrews 9:26

so the "last days" and the "end of the age" have been running for 2,000 years now.

that is twice as long as the jews have had a kingdom of one sort or another in the holy land between 1000 bce to 70 ad.

But again I'm not talking about the last days (plural); I'm talking about the last day (singular).

 

[random person]

But again I'm not talking about the last days (plural); I'm talking about the last day (singular).

we also have the last hour - john 5:28-29 & romans 13:11-12

as far as the last day christ himself gives us proper context with the flood and the destruction of sodom in luke 17:26-29 & luke 17:30-31. the great day of the lord.

 

[Rahmemhotep]

None of these verses refute a pre-trib rapture nor support another idea.

This is simple. Read 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" and Matthew 24:----- Hey, I hate to do this,but I have to go to bed and will be very busy the next few days, so I'll link you to this webpage http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/End of the World/pretrib_proof.htm

1 Thessalonians 1:10 says, "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." Notice that it does not say 'delivered us from the penalty of sin' which is death and Hades. This 'wrath to come' is God's wrath that is to be poured out upon the Earth of which Paul says we are currently delivered from. This dispensation of God's wrath happens on the Great Day of The Lord (also known as the Tribulation period or the Time of Jacob's Trouble) of which, once again, he says we are delivered from.

 

[Dave-W]

1 Thessalonians 1:10 says, "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." Notice that it does not say 'delivered us from the penalty of sin' which is death and Hades. This 'wrath to come' is God's wrath that is to be poured out upon the Earth of which Paul says we are currently delivered from. This dispensation of God's wrath happens on the Great Day of The Lord (also known as the Tribulation period or the Time of Jacob's Trouble) of which, once again, he says we are delivered from.

"Delivered" can be taken different ways. Israel was "delivered" from the plagues in Egypt by staying in Goshen, and the final one (death of the firstborn) by applying blood to the doorposts and lintels. They were still there thru all of that; but were protected.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

1 Thessalonians 1:10 says, "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." Notice that it does not say 'delivered us from the penalty of sin' which is death and Hades. This 'wrath to come' is God's wrath that is to be poured out upon the Earth of which Paul says we are currently delivered from. This dispensation of God's wrath happens on the Great Day of The Lord (also known as the Tribulation period or the Time of Jacob's Trouble) of which, once again, he says we are delivered from.

The wrath to come is judgement, death, and hell.

 

[Rahmemhotep]

The wrath to come is judgement, death, and hell.

Even if what you have said here were true then my point would still stand. Being delivered from judgment? Sure sounds like you wouldn't be here for the Tribulation.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

Even if what you have said here were true then my point would still stand. Being delivered from judgment? Sure sounds like you wouldn't be here for the Tribulation.

Jesus said that in this world you will have tribulation.

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

When I said "judgement" I was speaking of when Jesus sits on his glorious throne and judges the nations.

 

[Dave-W]

Rahm- I think GracetotheHumble has made my point. You take "wrath" to mean the Tribulation, while he takes it to mean eternal judgement.

I don't think anyone can prove which is true (if either).

 

[GracetotheHumble]

Rahm- I think GracetotheHumble has made my point. You take "wrath" to mean the Tribulation, while he takes it to mean eternal judgement.

I don't think anyone can prove which is true (if either).

There is no such thing as a seven year tribulation, it is found no where in scripture. We have been in tribulation since Christ came.

The wrath to come is clearly eternity without Christ.

 

[Rahmemhotep]

There is no such thing as a seven year tribulation, it is found no where in scripture. We have been in tribulation since Christ came.

The wrath to come is clearly eternity without Christ.

Have you not read the book of Revelation? The book that speaks of a seven year period of time time far worse than anything we as humanity have ever experienced before? Have you not read the book of Daniel? We are enduring tribulation, but we are not in The Tribulation.

Rahm- I think GracetotheHumble has made my point. You take "wrath" to mean the Tribulation, while he takes it to mean eternal judgement.

I don't think anyone can prove which is true (if either).

Read Scripture and divide it by what Scripture says, not by what you say.

I take wrath to mean WRATH. I take punishment to mean PUNISHMENT. I take death and Hades to mean DEATH AND HADES.

I don't twist the Word to fit some stubborn philosophy, I take God at His Word. Read the context of the passage. Both are true. We are saved from the outpouring of God's wrath on mankind AND from being cast into the Lake of Fire. Also, no I can not prove it to you because of your contentions, but God speaks for Himself.

Nahum 1:2 - God [is] jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and [is] furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth [wrath] for his enemies.

He reserves His wrath for His enemies, not His friends.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

Have you not read the book of Revelation? The book that speaks of a seven year period of time time far worse than anything we as humanity have ever experienced before? Have you not read the book of Daniel? We are enduring tribulation, but we are not in The Tribulation.

I have read both Revelation and Daniel many times. No where in those books does it speak of a 7 year tribulation.

Please quote the scriptures where the bible speaks of a 7 year tribulation.

 

[Rahmemhotep]

I have read both Revelation and Daniel many times. No where in those books does it speak of a 7 year tribulation.

Please quote the scriptures where the bible speaks of a 7 year tribulation.

You have to read the entirety of these two books to get it. Just open your Bible.

Edit: The reason I say this rather than throwing verses at you (beside the fact that it would be a large portion of Revelation and Daniel that would have to be quoted) is that you just don't agree. You will not agree because you believe you are right. I believe that God is right. I'd much rather you find the truth on your own through a personal revelation from the Holy Spirit than by me telling you outright lest you be turned from the truth.

What I believe is truly important is the Blood of Jesus Christ that atoned for all our sins and His resurrection. As long as you believe in the cleansing power of the Blood, that Jesus is God made flesh and born through immaculate conception, and the literal, physical resurrection of Jesus, then we are brothers and should not strive against each other, but encourage and edify one another.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

You have to read the entirety of these two books to get it. Just open your Bible.

Why can't you show me scriptures where a 7 year tribulation is mentioned? Oh, I know because it is a fable and there are none.

 

[Rahmemhotep]

Why can't you show me scriptures where a 7 year tribulation is mentioned? Oh, I know because it is a fable and there are none.

Refer to the edit on the previous post.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

Edit: The reason I say this rather than throwing verses at you (beside the fact that it would be a large portion of Revelation and Daniel that would have to be quoted) is that you just don't agree. You will not agree because you believe you are right. I believe that God is right. I'd much rather you find the truth on your own through a personal revelation from the Holy Spirit than by me telling you outright lest you be turned from the truth.

It's alarming that you believe something you are unable to prove from scripture. Lutherans are sola scriptura; if you can't show me from scripture then I won't agree.

Can't you quote at least one scripture that states there will be a 7 year tribulation? I know you can't because I have read the bible many times and it's not in there.