What I don't like about Calvary Chapel

[GracetotheHumble]

Hi, let me start off by saying that I really do like Calvary Chapel. But there are a few things I have found that I really don't like about it. They are:

1. No focus on the sacrament. Out of all the Calvary Chapels I went to we never took communion. I find this very disturbing.

2. Their Pastors are like Rock stars. They really glorify their Pastors in the Calvary movement. I think this is wrong and that the focus should not be on a man.

3. Eschatology - I really don't agree with the Pre trib theory and this is one of their essential beliefs.

Other than that I have found Calvary Chapels to be really good Churches. The worship is great and so is the focus on preaching the word. Thanks for reading. God bless.

 

[Sojourner1]

Communion is taken in the Sunday evening service at our church. At the last two churches I attended we took communion the first Sunday every month, which was pretty much the same as other Baptist and non-denominational churches that I attended.

I haven't met any Calvary Chapel pastors who are "rock stars". Our pastor is extremely humble and unassuming. Perhaps you have just encountered a couple pastors that you feel this way about? I haven't seen any glorification of the pastors at Calvary Chapel.

Eschatology, that's is true, they are pre-trib. We don't spend too much time discussing end-time events, only do so when it's in the Scripture that we are currently studying. Calvary Chapel does expository teaching, verse-by-verse. We aren't topic driven. But I wouldn't really call Pre-Trib an "essential" belief.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

Communion is taken in the Sunday evening service at our church. At the last two churches I attended we took communion the first Sunday every month, which was pretty much the same as other Baptist and non-denominational churches that I attended.

Hi, this was not my experience with Calvary Chapel. I never took communion once and I went there for around 10 years. I also went to the Bible College and we didn't take communion there either. I find this very disturbing. The Church I primarily attend now takes communion every other week and they have been discussing changing it to weekly. I also currently attend the Calvary Chapel in Caldwell, Idaho every so often but have never taken communion there.

I haven't met any Calvary Chapel pastors who are "rock stars". Our pastor is extremely humble and unassuming. Perhaps you have just encountered a couple pastors that you feel this way about? I haven't seen any glorification of the pastors at Calvary Chapel.

Maybe it's just my impression but I really feel like the Pastors are idolized at Calvary.

Eschatology, that's is true, they are pre-trib. We don't spend too much time discussing end-time events, only do so when it's in the Scripture that we are currently studying. Calvary Chapel does expository teaching, verse-by-verse. We aren't topic driven. But I wouldn't really call Pre-Trib an "essential" belief.

Actually, when I went to the Bible College in order to graduate you had to agree with a statement of faith that had the pre-trib doctrine in it.

 

[createdtoworship]

our local calvary chapel does morning communion maybe 2X a year, and nightly communion once a month.

I know what you mean by the rock star thing, chuck smith had a vision of not having large church counsels. He looked at it as red tape. And for the purpose of his vision specifically it worked well for him.

church counsels while being a safe thing, is often WAY too safe, and take nearly all risk in ministry, and much of what it takes to truly step out in faith is gone.

but the "bigger they are the Harder they fall"

and if they don't truly look toward a serious leadership counsel, and separating from assistant pastors and pastors.

...keeping the pastors on leadership oversight, and ass. pastors on a type of lower style of leadership.

then even a pastor as great as I have seen in the mega church calvaries, can fall.

no one is above temptation, if they don't have checks and balances, it's only a matter of time, till lusts of the eyes, lust of the flesh and pride of life creep in .

but point being, you can have leadership and still not have a counsel, and for this it appears that the senior pastors are lifted up on a pedestal.

and I am not sure if that is bad or not.

I really can't tell you, it's just how it is.

 

[Sojourner1]

I think these things are true for all pastors/clergy in all denominations, not just the Calvary Chapel churches.

 

[Sojourner1]

Hi, this was not my experience with Calvary Chapel. I never took communion once and I went there for around 10 years. I also went to the Bible College and we didn't take communion there either. I find this very disturbing. The Church I primarily attend now takes communion every other week and they have been discussing changing it to weekly. I also currently attend the Calvary Chapel in Caldwell, Idaho every so often but have never taken communion there.

That is really amazing that in ten years you never once took communion. I would consider that way outside the norm. I would prefer that we take communion in the morning service once a month, but we have a large congregation for morning services so I believe this is part of the reason why they do communion on Sunday evening.

Maybe it's just my impression but I really feel like the Pastors are idolized at Calvary.

I'm sure some of the larger churches may struggle with this issue (especially in SoCal), but I don't think it's true of the majority of Calvary Chapel fellowships.

Actually, when I went to the Bible College in order to graduate you had to agree with a statement of faith that had the pre-trib doctrine in it.

Then I guess it's more of an essential then it comes across as in most churches. It's not an issue to me as I agree with pre-trib doctrine.

 

[createdtoworship]

Actually, when I went to the Bible College in order to graduate you had to agree with a statement of faith that had the pre-trib doctrine in it.

I studied for a year at the Bible College myself.

known many graduates in my day.

rapture theory, and giftings of holy spirit are both extremely controversial.

so it was my understanding that many graduates become leadership in CChapels.

I was in leadership for awhile, until God called me to focus on other things for awhile.

Over 10 years ago. I am not in any leadership role right now, or affiliated with any calvary chapel. but I do attend a local congregation.

but in leadership, it is required to believe in cardinal doctrines of the church.

one is rapture, the other is gifts of spirit, as well as basic doctrines for example, that you find in the statement of believe here on CF (as well)

if an assistant pastor started teaching post trib rapture, or ammilenialism, or some of the other views....

that would bring division.

and a house divided cannot stand the Bible says.

it would naturally follow that the school, the only school for preparation of pastors and leaders would train them to believe things that would be consistent with a career in the ministry of calvary chapel.

I hope that makes sense.

there are several free works online, one is "calvary chapel distictives"

and it goes into more details.

but you probably already read it if you were a student, right?

it was required reading when I went through.

Right now I am reading again a book called "living water" by chuch smith.

great book.

I just got finished rereading a book called "charisma versus charismania"

I could see why God chose chuck smith as a father for this church group.

He is very very wise, and seems to have experienced many many things.

He has a father, grandfather feel when you read him. I can see why people would feel inclined to follow in his ministry foot steps.

I believe calvary chapel had a hard blow with the passing of chuck smith.

But God's spirit guides and provides.

 

[Rob V]

I was saved in 1981 directly as a result of Chuck Smiths teaching, and attended Calvary Chapels for 33 years, and only recently have I left.

I think what is true of some of the bigger churches is that they became dependent on a single Pastor and his personality. It is a shame that it happens, but so often Pastors become entertainers of sorts.

Some of those individuals have fallen from ministry, so that might point to the problem of being autonomous and not directly accountable in some fashion, as many pastors within Calvary are not directly accountable to a board or other pastors, though I know some chose to meet and offer accountability in that fashion to each other.

What is perhaps the most damaging element I found within the movement, is the expectation that each local church should grow into a large work. Many of the smaller churches pastors are burdened with an expectation to become like some of the mega churches within the movement. Typically they tend to turn over congregations over the years and never become more than several hundred attendees. This can lead to frustration being brought to the pulpit in terms of the failure of attendees in living out there faith and multiplying.

In some cases the same mentality mentioned above leads to the Pastor feeling he is failing himself, and so he becomes discouraged and loses faith.

While all these things are true in many churches, the prolific rise of large churches early in the movement was bound to have some affect on the mentality that went forward.

I think that as time progresses many of the Pastors mature in the work, focus on feeding the sheep, and worry less about the growth of the church. In these cases where the Pastor has been broken of self, surrendered to whatever God means for his congregation, well that is a good place to start anew.

The principles of the movement, reliance on the Holy Spirit, verse by verse study through the Bible, with a focus on worshipping the Lord through fresh music, well those things are timeless.

Some of the fondest memories of my life happened in Calvary Chapel, including meeting and marrying my wife. Many friends come and gone, being a leader, teacher, worship leader, and more other opportunities too many to mention. My only regret is not to have been able to influence the movement toward a greater understanding of what I think the Lord let me see. I now attend a small church that has no hope of becoming a mega church, nor does it have the slightest concern about that, it simply is a local community of believers seeking the Lord.

 

[createdtoworship]

I was saved in 1981 directly as a result of Chuck Smiths teaching, and attended Calvary Chapels for 33 years, and only recently have I left.

I think what is true of some of the bigger churches is that they became dependent on a single Pastor and his personality. It is a shame that it happens, but so often Pastors become entertainers of sorts.

Some of those individuals have fallen from ministry, so that might point to the problem of being autonomous and not directly accountable in some fashion, as many pastors within Calvary are not directly accountable to a board or other pastors, though I know some chose to meet and offer accountability in that fashion to each other.

What is perhaps the most damaging element I found within the movement, is the expectation that each local church should grow into a large work. Many of the smaller churches pastors are burdened with an expectation to become like some of the mega churches within the movement. Typically they tend to turn over congregations over the years and never become more than several hundred attendees. This can lead to frustration being brought to the pulpit in terms of the failure of attendees in living out there faith and multiplying.

In some cases the same mentality mentioned above leads to the Pastor feeling he is failing himself, and so he becomes discouraged and loses faith.

While all these things are true in many churches, the prolific rise of large churches early in the movement was bound to have some affect on the mentality that went forward.

I think that as time progresses many of the Pastors mature in the work, focus on feeding the sheep, and worry less about the growth of the church. In these cases where the Pastor has been broken of self, surrendered to whatever God means for his congregation, well that is a good place to start anew.

The principles of the movement, reliance on the Holy Spirit, verse by verse study through the Bible, with a focus on worshipping the Lord through fresh music, well those things are timeless.

Some of the fondest memories of my life happened in Calvary Chapel, including meeting and marrying my wife. Many friends come and gone, being a leader, teacher, worship leader, and more other opportunities too many to mention. My only regret is not to have been able to influence the movement toward a greater understanding of what I think the Lord let me see. I now attend a small church that has no hope of becoming a mega church, nor does it have the slightest concern about that, it simply is a local community of believers seeking the Lord.

I wouldn't say that there is an expectation to be a mega church.

I know for a fact C smith did not think that way. I have listened to too many hours of his preaching to assume that position of him.

I know chuck smith was a man of grace, and many many of the mega church pastors would have left the church long ago if it were not through the grace and the vision He had for them.

I believe it was because chuck smith was in tune with Jesus.

so yes in a way the church revolved around a man, and when he is gone, it suffers.

but all the more to have a personal relationship with Christ to get our identity in Christ and not in any organization.

but that is easier said that done, I know this.

but that does not remove us from the responsibility of making Christ personal, and knowing Him and realizing Christ is who we are.

not anything else in this world.

I like chuck because He always did point up, to Christ.

He never had a ten point lesson on how to build a church, He simply showed it, and learned somethings along the way.

My friend started a home church, but after a year or two it was gone.

Now he speaks biweekly at a local church.

I understand difficult times, and also a difficult economy for both starting a church and holding a job in general.

We need faith in all areas.

 

[Rob V]

^^^^^In response I will have to retract the statement that the smaller churches as a whole have the mega church expectation, I guess my experience is pretty limited to the Midwest, but I know some of the Pastor's personally, and in some of those cases the expectation certainly was present at the outset of their ministries, some of which are no longer Pastoring, and others who remained in ministry. I have seen that after 10-15 years of ministry that expectation is no longer in the front of their minds, but maybe a distant thought. Equating ones ministry with exponential growth can be derived from the book of Acts if you feel that this should be the norm, so many of Chucks protégé's became pastor's of large Churches, I think it only natural to think that might be a sign of God's blessing a work. Then many more went out and started churches around the country, Bob Coy, Skip H., and many others, many of those churches grew quite huge.
It is sad when a man like Bob Coy falls from ministry, but we are all flesh and blood. I guess what bothers me in his case was that his humor and personality were so much front and center in his messages, many of which I loved.
I know Chuck at one point was trying to get John Courson to tone down his personality, maybe Chuck was discerning something at that point.
Chucks teaching definitely became more sober in his later years, I felt that he was beginning to sense a departure from what he hoped would become of the movement, or at least those sitting in it's branches. Any movement is bound to face issues, and in no way does this negate what has been done and is presently being done, it is only a warning to keep the focus squarely on Jesus, less of us more of him, and the pulpit is a sobering place to stand given the greater condemnation for those who proclaim God's word from a mixed motive. That is a universal problem within the church, the tendency of man to elevate himself and steal God's glory. Pride is as subtle as the morning dew, by the time the lights hits it is already too late. Anyone with a teaching ministry must guard against allowing it any place in their teaching. Human depravity needs to be understood, and Pastors need to be held up in prayer by their flock. It is a dangerous ministry to the man in the pulpit, he must guard himself from so many angles. If your teaching from a place of feeling superior to your flock in any fashion, well you have already succumbed to that danger.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

I think these things are true for all pastors/clergy in all denominations, not just the Calvary Chapel churches.

Actually I don't feel the same way about my current Pastor as I did the Calvary Pastors. He lives humbly in the Church parish, he doesn't talk about or brag about himself in his sermons. He serves the Church and is a humble man and not looked up to like a God. He is there to serve and not to be a show boat CEO. Most importantly he preaches the Word and keeps the focus off himself.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

Part of the problem I think with Calvary is that Churches are governed more by the Pastor and not by a ministry counsel or board of elders. So in effect the Pastor ends up being the CEO of the congregation. This puts a lot of added responsibility on the Pastor and also gives him more reason to glory in himself.

 

[Rob V]

I see your point and I get it, but it is certainly not confined to Calvary Chapels, I have seen it in churches with boards as well as congregational churches, man simply likes to steal the glory...whether he realizes he or she is even doing it. I remember counting the number of I's in a sermon, vs. the number of HIM and it became frightening. I think anytime you dwell on self your in trouble. Whether using yourself as a positive or negative example, you begin to take the focus off Jesus. If you can paint yourself as a dark empty canvas, and place Jesus on that, well that can glorify God while still having you in the picture but you have to be extremely careful. Paul the apostle called himself the chief of sinners, and he meant it. I think men in the pulpit, a pulpit often standing higher than the congregation, well they need to be the lowest in their own estimation. I have seen in some teaching that this was not the case, but the contrary, and in all churches this can happen, nothing confined to Calvary Chapel, though I see the autonomy and question whether that ought to be the case given human nature.

One pastor from Calvary Chapel who is currently the pastor of St. Petersburg Florida, he is an example of how to be real in the pulpit, to express your own weakness and let Christ shine through, I never once felt he held himself up as a great example, but rather showed his own struggles juxtaposed with Grace, and you always feel Jesus is getting the glory, as well as leave encouraged and uplifted. Humility is the all encompassing evidence of Christ, it is like what wood is to the fire of God's love, it has a very certain beautiful odor, and you know when your smelling it. Pride has it's own distinctive odor as well, and His sheep know the difference. All of these factors have brought me into questioning the modern arrangement of the Church, and somehow desiring a return to simplicity. I want the organic element of the Church to be brought forward, that being the communion of saints in the humility of Christ, that same mind of Christ so beautifully spoken of by Paul in Phillipians 3, when believers come together in that lowliness of mind, focusing on the unity of the body of Christ, vein glory fleeing the light, well that is the Church that Hell will not prevail against, and it crosses all denominations because it is a spiritual habitation in the souls of men who focus on the Glory of God in Christ Jesus. On earth as it is in Heaven, that is how it should be, may we see the Church as it is in Heaven and bring His Kingdom down, may it be so. Amen

 

[GracetotheHumble]

I see your point and I get it, but it is certainly not confined to Calvary Chapels, I have seen it in churches with boards as well as congregational churches, man simply likes to steal the glory...whether he realizes he or she is even doing it. I remember counting the number of I's in a sermon, vs. the number of HIM and it became frightening. I think anytime you dwell on self your in trouble. Whether using yourself as a positive or negative example, you begin to take the focus off Jesus. If you can paint yourself as a dark empty canvas, and place Jesus on that, well that can glorify God while still having you in the picture but you have to be extremely careful. Paul the apostle called himself the chief of sinners, and he meant it. I think men in the pulpit, a pulpit often standing higher than the congregation, well they need to be the lowest in their own estimation. I have seen in some teaching that this was not the case, but the contrary, and in all churches this can happen, nothing confined to Calvary Chapel, though I see the autonomy and question whether that ought to be the case given human nature.

I'm sure there are other Churches where this problem surfaces but I do see it as a problem that is characteristic of most Calvary Chapels.

 

[createdtoworship]

^^^^^In response I will have to retract the statement that the smaller churches as a whole have the mega church expectation, I guess my experience is pretty limited to the Midwest, but I know some of the Pastor's personally, and in some of those cases the expectation certainly was present at the outset of their ministries, some of which are no longer Pastoring, and others who remained in ministry. I have seen that after 10-15 years of ministry that expectation is no longer in the front of their minds, but maybe a distant thought. Equating ones ministry with exponential growth can be derived from the book of Acts if you feel that this should be the norm, so many of Chucks protégé's became pastor's of large Churches, I think it only natural to think that might be a sign of God's blessing a work. Then many more went out and started churches around the country, Bob Coy, Skip H., and many others, many of those churches grew quite huge.
It is sad when a man like Bob Coy falls from ministry, but we are all flesh and blood. I guess what bothers me in his case was that his humor and personality were so much front and center in his messages, many of which I loved.
I know Chuck at one point was trying to get John Courson to tone down his personality, maybe Chuck was discerning something at that point.
Chucks teaching definitely became more sober in his later years, I felt that he was beginning to sense a departure from what he hoped would become of the movement, or at least those sitting in it's branches. Any movement is bound to face issues, and in no way does this negate what has been done and is presently being done, it is only a warning to keep the focus squarely on Jesus, less of us more of him, and the pulpit is a sobering place to stand given the greater condemnation for those who proclaim God's word from a mixed motive. That is a universal problem within the church, the tendency of man to elevate himself and steal God's glory. Pride is as subtle as the morning dew, by the time the lights hits it is already too late. Anyone with a teaching ministry must guard against allowing it any place in their teaching. Human depravity needs to be understood, and Pastors need to be held up in prayer by their flock. It is a dangerous ministry to the man in the pulpit, he must guard himself from so many angles. If your teaching from a place of feeling superior to your flock in any fashion, well you have already succumbed to that danger.

Bob Coy story is sad, but there are many like it. It is sad that His church was so huge, and that it got alot of publicity. It really makes us look bad. But I learned along time ago, if there is something I or another person can do to make you not believe, then you were not meant to believe.

I know that goes against the being a light thing, a little.

but God has ordained who would come and who would not.

if Bob Coy repents, He is still saved.

His marriage and ministry may never recover as well as his reputation.....but God will recieve all who come to him.

and for this reason I hope He does repent.

But on a brighter note, as for everything else you said.....

the expository preaching is a way of uniting personality types, the hard core emphasis on doctrine and learning was a sort of think tank among evangelicals.....and affected many facets of the face of pentecostalism and evangelicalism alike.

think of vineyards influence on music, and chuck smiths influence on john wimber.

think of vineyards and maranatha's influence on hillsong australia?

think of hillsong australia's influence on others like worship mob?

it was a chain reaction.

think of artists like jeremy camp (calvary chapel costa mesa) and moriah peters (calvary chapel chino valley?) (and also phil wickam of calvary chapel costa mesa)

how they went on to achieve greatness, as Jeremy camp was male vocalist of the year, and morah peters maried a member of "for king and country," as well as do her own ministry.

God through calvary chapel changed the face of worship, and even christian rock and christian contemporary.

at the same time as doing more to forward the movement of expository preaching than any movement before it.

I am very thankful that a little purple haired skater, with nose ring invited me to calvary chapel that one evening.

I would not be the same if it were not for the existance of such ministries.

(all ministries have problems, that's not the important part), the important part is what area's has that ministry done victoriously in?

 

[createdtoworship]

Bob Coy story is sad, but there are many like it. It is sad that His church was so huge, and that it got alot of publicity. It really makes us look bad. But I learned along time ago, if there is something I or another person can do to make you not believe, then you were not meant to believe.

I know that goes against the being a light thing, a little.

but God has ordained who would come and who would not.

if Bob Coy repents, He is still saved.

His marriage and ministry may never recover as well as his reputation.....but God will recieve all who come to him.

and for this reason I hope He does repent.

But on a brighter note, as for everything else you said.....

the expository preaching is a way of uniting personality types, the hard core emphasis on doctrine and learning was a sort of think tank among evangelicals.....and affected many facets of the face of pentecostalism and evangelicalism alike.

think of vineyards influence on music, and chuck smiths influence on john wimber.

think of vineyards and maranatha's influence on hillsong australia?
.

is a great movement still. I remember hearing stories of chuck smith meeting with president george bush in an advisory fashion, I guess it happened more than once.

 

[random person]

Hi, let me start off by saying that I really do like Calvary Chapel. But there are a few things I have found that I really don't like about it. They are:

1. No focus on the sacrament. Out of all the Calvary Chapels I went to we never took communion. I find this very disturbing.

2. Their Pastors are like Rock stars. They really glorify their Pastors in the Calvary movement. I think this is wrong and that the focus should not be on a man.

3. Eschatology - I really don't agree with the Pre trib theory and this is one of their essential beliefs.

Other than that I have found Calvary Chapels to be really good Churches. The worship is great and so is the focus on preaching the word. Thanks for reading. God bless.

we have harvest here in riverside,what i dont like about this cc offshoot it is christian zionist and trinity broadcasting affiliated.

 

[bibledoctrine]

Far and away a most damaging practice with CCC is that the expectation for each local church to grow into a mega-church like size. This is not how the early grace churches met; they were home churches at first, but grew into larger congregations with time. I have found that mega churches comprise sound doctrines and move into the "wisdom of men". Paul warns against that in 1 Cor. 2:5 -1 Cor. 2:5 "That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God".

A true grace church does not fall into the "wisdom of men", but follows "the power of God" as the churches that I have attended over many years.

 

[Gene_W]

I attended Calvary Chapel Golden Springs for a few years when I was in Southern California. I actually don't recall taking communion there, but I guess with 12-14 thousand people it would be a task to administer it! And as you said, bibledoctrine, that size is a problem unto itself. I do think some of the small groups may have had communion.

EDIT: It's been several years, but as I think about it more I do think we had communion during the Wednesday evening.services.

It's true that Pastor Raul Reis did make himself scarce after service, but not invisible. I found it very easy to schedule an appointment with him when I needed to. He's a genuine guy, not really a rock star but I do understand where that impression comes from. I met another Southern California CC pastor one day and he was shockingly impersonal and his demeanor was very guarded.

Why we left CCGS was a combination of things: First, the size was incompatible for us having real relationships. We'd see the same people each Wednesday and Sunday but it never went past that. Second, the teaching was good but we felt we had grown as much as we possibly could. We needed more doctrinal meat, needed to go deeper in the Word than we felt the teaching was going. And third, we wanted our kids in a church in their own neighborhood where some of their friends at church were also their classmates.

 

[Rahmemhotep]

Hi, let me start off by saying that I really do like Calvary Chapel. But there are a few things I have found that I really don't like about it. They are:

1. No focus on the sacrament. Out of all the Calvary Chapels I went to we never took communion. I find this very disturbing.

2. Their Pastors are like Rock stars. They really glorify their Pastors in the Calvary movement. I think this is wrong and that the focus should not be on a man.

3. Eschatology - I really don't agree with the Pre trib theory and this is one of their essential beliefs.

Other than that I have found Calvary Chapels to be really good Churches. The worship is great and so is the focus on preaching the word. Thanks for reading. God bless.

This is a bit sad to hear about communion. We put out the bread and cup every Sunday for anyone who wants to take communion and we do communion with the whole congregation every once in a while (if I had to guess I'd say every 2 months or more frequently). We actually agree that we don't do communion enough and our pastor told the whole congregation this. We've taken communion on Sunday morning twice this month and at the prayer gathering we had last night we took it again.

In any case, if you felt they weren't taking communion as often as they should you should take that concern to them. You shouldn't be afraid to suggest something good and right.

Our pastor is no rock star, he simply does what a pastor should do and pastors us. We don't focus on a man, we focus on God's Word flowing through that man. Were you feeling that you were too focused on the man? If so, that's indicative of an issue of the heart. If I felt like that I would bring that up with a brother or someone on the pastoral care team.

I find this a strange thing to say as well since the Apostles were godly leaders in the church and were mistakenly looked at by some to be gods (remember Paul on Malta? Remember Acts 14:12?). Obviously, the people were the ones who were wrong, not the Apostles.

Pre-trib is Biblical. Anything else is wrong and you'll be shown that when you hear the trumpet and get called into the air.