What Hit the Pentagon? A UFO!

[k]

Cheney himself said he spoke with mineta in the bunker before being told about the pentagon hit. He backs up mineta's testimony with his own words and that still isn't good enough?

 

[k]

Dave, it is correct i claimed too much, in a way, about the autopsy. I said no arab dna was found because the report has no arab names. Meaning, that unmatched dna is still unknown. They have not made a positive id. Assuming it's the hijacker's is absurd without any positive id.

 

[David Gould]

Dave, it is correct i claimed too much, in a way, about the autopsy. I said no arab dna was found because the report has no arab names. Meaning, that unmatched dna is still unknown. They have not made a positive id. Assuming it's the hijacker's is absurd without any positive id.

Um, they have eliminated the majority of others. They have cameras showing who got on what planes. DNA is not the only method used for identification - elimination is.

Think about this. If you knew four people, Johan, Sarah, Bill and Ann, had got on a bus, and had DNA matches for Johan, Sarah and Bill, do you think it would be logical to think that the fourth body was indeed Ann? Or do you think that it would be logical to assume that Ann had somehow vanished from the bus and been replaced by somebody else?

Further, your refusal to answer questions is pretty annoying. What do you think of my options? Which option is most reasonable:

1.) The bodies of the victims were there because the plane crashed there.
2.) The bodies of the victims were there because someone had placed them there after something else crashed into the pentagon.
3.) The bodies of the victims were not there and everybody working on that area is in 'the conspiracy'?

Number 1 is in my opinion the most reasonable, logical and parsimonious choice. What is your opinion?

 

[David Gould]

Dump all eyewitnesses. Eyewitness reports suck.

 

[k]

I've seene the purported image that were supposed to identify them and they are not good matches to other pics of hanjour, etc. The problem with your alternative possibilities is the arrogance in believing they are the ONLY possibilities when in fact there are several others but like i said, that is not the purpose here and there is much in the op you still haven't addressed.

 

[David Gould]

I've seene the purported image that were supposed to identify them and they are not good matches to other pics of hanjour, etc. The problem with your alternative possibilities is the arrogance in believing they are the ONLY possibilities when in fact there are several others but like i said, that is not the purpose here and there is much in the op you still haven't addressed.

Then give me the other possibilities. I am standing in front of the jury. I am putting these possibilities on the table in front of them and asking them to decide which one is the truth. If you do not present any others, the jury cannot consider them. Simply asserting that there are other possibilities does not cut it.

As the prosecution, I am stomping all over your case. This is not arrogance speaking - it is simply fact. You need to do better as the defence. One way to do that is to present credible alternatives. If you do not do this, I win the case hands down.

 

[David Gould]

And yes, I know that declaring victory is bad form, but this is getting silly, frustrating and annoying from my perspective.

I have answered many of your points; you have answered hardly any of mine. Go back to my earlier posts. Respond. Please.

 

[k]

You have addressed a small part of the op then say you're stomping all over it? Okay, you win.

 

[David Gould]

Excellent!

Neverstop, I have addressed the question of this thread, which was: 'What hit the Pentagon?'

This stuff with where Cheney was is completely irrelevant to that point.

If you want me to address stuff in the OP that has nothing to do with that question, I will. However, I think that that should be in a separate thread. Further, I think that you really need to address my points on the substantive question at hand.

If you think that, for example, where Cheney was is relevant to what hit the Pentagon, I would ask that you explain your reasoning. It would go something like:

Premise 1.) Cheney was in place X at such and such a time.
Premise 2.) ??
Conclusion.) Thus, the plane did not hit the Pentagon.

 

[oldbetang]

Cheney himself said he spoke with mineta in the bunker before being told about the pentagon hit. He backs up mineta's testimony with his own words and that still isn't good enough?

If that's true then it's awfully strange that he never mentioned that in the Russert interview. So, where has Cheney said that he spoke with Mineta in the bunker before being informed of the Pentagon hit?

 

[oldbetang]

. They have not made a positive id. Assuming it's the hijacker's is absurd without any positive id.

Why is that absurd? Family members of the victims came forward and offered DNA samples that were then used to identify the remains of their loved ones. It makes perfect sense that the remains leftover would be those named in the official passenger manifest who had yet to be claimed by family members through provision of samples of their own DNA.

 

[k]

The selective quoting from russert's interview is horrible. He told russert he was in the bunker spoke with mineta & had the video conference all before being told 77 hit the pent. Since honest quoting from the interview can't be done i will do it when i get to a computer.

 

[Marek]

Neverstop, I have a serious question for you. Are you interested in analyzing the evidence yourself in hope of finding out exactly what hit the Pentagon, or are you content to point out problems with the accepted version of events until maybe someone else will figure everything out for you?

 

[k]

Pilotsfor911truth.org have comprehensive analysis of the blackbox data released by the ntsb and they show several problems with it. The thread title is another way of examining 77 as a whole picture so don't try to tell me the intention of the thread i created. Why hasn't the rest of the info been addressed?

 

[k]

They knew where hanjour was living so why didn't they pull dna from there for a match up? Also, isn't strange in less than 8 days they were able to identify so many with such time taking methods? Dna isn't exactly like a bag of microwave popcorn.

 

[David Gould]

Pilotsfor911truth.org have comprehensive analysis of the blackbox data released by the ntsb and they show several problems with it.

Simple question: where was this blackbox found?

The thread title is another way of examining 77 as a whole picture so don't try to tell me the intention of the thread i created. Why hasn't the rest of the info been addressed?

Because it is irrelevant to what I want to acheive. I want to demonstrate that the only reasonable explanation is that flight 77 hit the Pentagon.

You are having a conversation about Cheney with someone else. With me, you are talking about what hit the Pentagon. If you are willing to concede that flight 77 hit the Pentagon, we can proceed to other things. If not, then I ask that you address my posts on this issue.

 

[David Gould]

They knew where hanjour was living so why didn't they pull dna from there for a match up? Also, isn't strange in less than 8 days they were able to identify so many with such time taking methods? Dna isn't exactly like a bag of microwave popcorn.

Yes, they only had two people working on the DNA stuff, and one of them was only on it part-time (she was also a waitress at Denny's) - and they had to share the single machine they were using with all the undergrads at Caltech. It should have taken them ages.

Sigh.

 

[David Gould]

As to getting Hanjour's DNA from where he was living, when did they discover where he lived? Who else lived there?

If they had got his DNA from there, my bet is you would be saying, 'Look how quickly they got his DNA from where he lived! Conspiracy!'

At this point, I am again laughing. Not mockingly, though - in despair.

 

[Marek]

Neverstop, could you please use the quote function? I'm getting so confused.

 

[oldbetang]

The selective quoting from russert's interview is horrible. He told russert he was in the bunker spoke with mineta & had the video conference all before being told 77 hit the pent. Since honest quoting from the interview can't be done i will do it when i get to a computer.

Here is the part of the interview that is pertinent to this discussion:

MR. RUSSERT: Let me turn to the events of Tuesday. Where were you when you first learned a plane had struck the World Trade Center? ​

VICE PRES. CHENEY: Well, I was in my office Tuesday morning. Monday, I had been in Kentucky, and the president had been in the White House. Tuesday, our roles were sort of reversed. He was in Florida, and I was in the White House Tuesday morning. And a little before 9, my speechwriter came in. We were going to go over some speeches coming up. And my secretary called in just as we were starting to meet just before 9:00 and said an airplane had hit the World Trade Center, and that was the first one that went in. So we turned on the television and watched for a few minutes, and then actually saw the second plane hit the World Trade Center. And the--as soon as that second plane showed up, that's what triggered the thought: terrorism, that this was an attack... ​

MR. RUSSERT: You sensed it immediately, "This is deliberate"? ​

VICE PRES. CHENEY: Yeah. Then I convened in my office. Condi Rice came down. Her office is right near mine there in the West Wing. ​

MR. RUSSERT: The national security adviser. ​

VICE PRES. CHENEY: National security adviser, my chief of staff, Scooter Libby, Mary Matalin, who works for me, convened in my office, and we started talking about getting the Counterterrorism Task Force up and operating. I talked with the president. I'd given word to Andy Card's staff, who is right next door, to get hold of Andy and/or the president and that I wanted to talk to him as soon as they could hook it up. This call came in, and the president knew at this point about that. We discussed a statement that he might make, and the first statement he made describing this as an act of apparent terrorism flowed out of those conversations. While I was there, over the next several minutes, watching developments on the television and as we started to get organized to figure out what to do, my Secret Service agents came in and, under these circumstances, they just move. They don't say "sir" or ask politely. They came in and said, "Sir, we have to leave immediately," and grabbed me and... ​

MR. RUSSERT: Literally grabbed you and moved you? ​

VICE PRES. CHENEY: Yeah. And, you know, your feet touch the floor periodically. But they're bigger than I am, and they hoisted me up and moved me very rapidly down the hallway, down some stairs, through some doors and down some more stairs into an underground facility under the White House, and, as a matter of fact, it's a corridor, locked at both ends, and they did that because they had received a report that an airplane was headed for the White House. ​

MR. RUSSERT: This is Flight 77, which had left Dulles. ​

VICE PRES. CHENEY: Which turned out to be Flight 77. It left Dulles, flown west towards Ohio, been captured by the terrorists. They turned off the transponder, which led to a later report that a plane had gone down in Ohio, but it really hadn't. Of course, then they turned back and headed back towards Washington. As best we can tell, they came initially at the White House and... ​

MR. RUSSERT: The plane actually circled the White House? ​

VICE PRES. CHENEY: Didn't circle it, but was headed on a track into it. The Secret Service has an arrangement with the F.A.A. They had open lines after the World Trade Center was... ​

MR. RUSSERT: Tracking it by radar. ​

VICE PRES. CHENEY: And when it entered the danger zone and looked like it was headed for the White House was when they grabbed me and evacuated me to the basement. The plane obviously didn't hit the White House. It turned away and, we think, flew a circle and came back in and then hit the Pentagon. And that's what the radar track looks like. The result of that--once I got down into the shelter, the first thing I did--there's a secure phone there. First thing I did was pick up the telephone and call the president again, who was still down in Florida, at that point, and strongly urged him to delay his return. ​

MR. RUSSERT: You told him to stay away from Washington. ​

VICE PRES. CHENEY: I said, `Delay your return. We don't know what's going on here, but it looks like, you know, we've been targeted.' ​

MR. RUSSERT: Why did you make that judgment? ​

VICE PRES. CHENEY: Well, it goes to--you know, sort of my basic role as vice president is to worry about presidential succession. And my job, above all other things, is to be prepared to take over if something happens to the president. But over the years from my time with President Ford, as secretary of Defense, on the Intel Committee and so forth, I've been involved in a number of programs that were aimed at ensuring presidential succession. We did a lot of planning during the Cold War, Tim, with respect to the possibility of a nuclear incident. And one of the key requirements always is to protect the presidency. It's not about George Bush or Dick Cheney. It's about the occupant in the office. ​

And one of the things that we did later on that day were tied directly to guaranteeing presidential succession, and that our enemies, whoever they might be, could not decapitate the federal government and leave us leaderless in a moment of crisis. That's why, for example, when we have a State of the Union speech and we've got the entire government assembled--the president, vice president, congressional leaders, Cabinet and so forth--we always leave a Cabinet member out. He's always taken to a secure location and set up there in case something should happen in the House chambers so we still have a president. ​

MR. RUSSERT: Did you have any role in Speaker Hastert... ​

VICE PRES. CHENEY: Yes. ​

MR. RUSSERT: ...speaker of the House being taken away? ​

VICE PRES. CHENEY: We evacuated Speaker Hastert to a secure facility, and later, the rest of the congressional leadership. I also ordered the evacuation of Cabinet members. And so we sent Tommy Thompson, Ann Veneman, Gale Norton also up to a secure facility. And in the days since, we've always maintained to say--I've spent a good deal of my time up at Camp David since the president returned to the White House just so we weren't both together in the same place so we could ensure the survival of the government. ​

The president was on Air Force One. We received a threat to Air Force One--came through the Secret Service... ​

MR. RUSSERT: A credible threat to Air Force One. You're convinced of that. ​

VICE PRES. CHENEY: I'm convinced of that. Now, you know, it may have been phoned in by a crank, but in the midst of what was going on, there was no way to know that. I think it was a credible threat, enough for the Secret Service to bring it to me. Once I left that immediate shelter, after I talked to the president, urged him to stay away for now, well, I went down into what's call a PEOC, the Presidential Emergency Operations Center, and there, I had Norm Mineta... ​

MR. RUSSERT: Secretary of Transportation. ​

VICE PRES. CHENEY: ...secretary of Transportation, access to the FAA. I had Condi Rice with me and several of my key staff people. We had access, secured communications with Air Force One, with the secretary of Defense over in the Pentagon. We had also the secure videoconference that ties together the White House, CIA, State, Justice, Defense--a very useful and valuable facility. We have the counterterrorism task force up on that net. And so I was in a position to be able to see all the stuff coming in, receive reports and then make decisions in terms of acting with it. ​

But when I arrived there within a short order, we had word the Pentagon's been hit. We had word the State Department had been bombed, that a car bomb had gone off at the State Department. Turned out not to be true, but we didn't know that at the time. We had a report that Norm had provided that there were six airplanes that might have been hijacked, and that's what we started working off of, was that list of six. ​

Now we could account for two of them in New York. The third one we didn't know what had happened to it. It turned out it had hit the Pentagon. But the first reports on the Pentagon attack suggested a helicopter, and then later, a private jet, and it was only after we got ahold of some eyewitnesses that we knew it was an American Airlines flight. So then we had three planes accounted for, but we still have had three outstanding. We had reports of planes down in Ohio, turned out not to be true; down in Pennsylvania; turned out that was true. And all of that--excuse me--added with the report of a perspective attack on Air Force One itself, we'd have been absolute fools not to go into button down mode, make sure we had successors evacuated, make sure the president was safe and secure. Offutt was a good location for that purpose, and also the president... ​

Where in there does Cheney say that he spoke with Mineta in the bunker before being informed of the Pentagon hit?