What have you understood about the charcater of The Ten Commandments?? (2)

GenemZ · Jan 22, 2014

from scratch said:
Yes the only thing you really said differently than me was to mention Devine purpose. To which I agree. I don't feel or understand its my God given purpose to convert him. He's a tool just like you said.

Yet, Paul was murdering and persecuting the Church before God finally smacked him down.

Just the same...

Titus 3:10

Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a
second time. After that, have nothing to do with them.

The SDA is a hiding place invented for a certain kind of coward who refuses to handle the pressures of spiritual warfare. It gives them a place to go where they can stick their heads in the sand together. The SDA makes everything very simple for them and ABC-like, to follow. "Do this work. Do that work. Do not eat this, etc."

So be it. In the mean time, my comprehension of the issue of the Law has grown a bit in understanding.. After all.. That is why I like to enter into such inane arguments.

Sophrosyne · Jan 22, 2014

genez said:
So be it. In the mean time, my comprehension of the issue of the Law has grown a bit in understanding.. After all.. That is why I like to enter into such inane arguments.

The more you learn about the Law the more you learn how utterly fantastic was Paul's Gospel of Grace. I believe one reason Paul was able to withstand terrible treatment was he totally understood how enslaved he was as Saul and how God revealed how tremendously free we are in Christ.

Elder 111 · Jan 22, 2014

VictorC said:
Well, turning your attention away from the context tells me that you don't care why God delivered us from the Ten Commandments. The Apostle Paul was very clear with his statement made by inspiration of the Holy Ghost - God's deliverance from the Ten Commandments that held the recipients in the past tense is a fait accompli in the perfect tense, and is not even subject to debate anymore. Yet you rendered the wrong answer to rebel against God's Hand of mercy.

And a leading reason you're wrong stems from reversing the relationship Paul defined as what kept whom in the past tense. Your attention is focused on 'keeping' the Law, which is in error. Your expression isn't even related to the context.

You are again wrong. Verse 1 provided the answer that identifies the 'we' that have been delivered from the Law: "for I speak to those who know the law". Paul doesn't address the Gentiles in this passage. He is addressing the Jews who have placed their faith in Christ's redemption from the entity that owned them in the past tense - the Law.

Not yet, as you've made the transition to 'another law' of sin and death, which is not the Ten Commandments. You erred by leaving the immediate context, and redemption from death is presented in the future tense in Romans 7:24.

No, you're wrong again, since you aren't included in the 'we' who have been delivered from the Ten Commandments. You never had it to begin with. Other passages in Paul's epistles describe how the Gentiles shared in God's redemption, but these leave the immediate context that doesn't include them.

And notice too that you quoted verse 24, that shows deliverance from death in the future tense, and is not even the same topic as the Law we have been delivered from in the perfect tense, shown in verse 6.

Each answer you provided was wrong, and this was an open-book quiz you couldn't have failed so badly unless that was your intent to begin with. It actually takes more work to fabricate error than it does to see the answers already provided in the text you had in your hands.

Again you have quoted what and reply to what you like to achieve your end, not God's.
let pothers read my full response. It says that we are delivered from the law. What is Paul saying? what does he mean? does he mean that we as Christians are not subject to/should not regard the Ten Commandments? A look at the Ten commandments would give us a definite NO! How could we not be subject to:

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
Thou shalt not kill.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

What did Paul really say any way?
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: (How can this mean the Ten Commandments have no obligation over us?)

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (Who will deliver? But notice it is not from the law but from death)

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. ( Jesus is the deliverer. But Paul says he serves the law of God, so how is he delivered from keeping it then?)
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. (Explain why would God remove that which is ordained to life?

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. (Does a holy God remove the Holy or the unholy? Paul ask a similar question below)

13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Since when are we taught that the spiritual things of God are not for us, His faithful children?

Originally Posted by VictorC

And as a follow up question, who is the 'we' that "have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by"? As a Gentile from Barbados, does this passage even include you?
The immediate context answers all of these questions. We would like to see you address them, as we have.

The we is every Christian. We all have been delivered form death by the blood of Christ because we violated His holy Ten Commandment law. Glory to God in the highest and praise to His name for every more.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. __________________
Isa. 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.

from scratch · Jan 22, 2014

genez said:
Yet, Paul was murdering and persecuting the Church before God finally smacked him down.

Just the same...

Titus 3:10

Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a
second time. After that, have nothing to do with them.

The SDA is a hiding place invented for a certain kind of coward who refuses to handle the pressures of spiritual warfare. It gives them a place to go where they can stick their heads in the sand together. The SDA makes everything very simple for them and ABC-like, to follow. "Do this work. Do that work. Do not eat this, etc."

So be it. In the mean time, my comprehension of the issue of the Law has grown a bit in understanding.. After all.. That is why I like to enter into such inane arguments.

One thing is for sure - he and I aren't friends. Like I said for me it isn't about or for him. It could be if he'd listen. But like you said he won't. I think its cause he's under orders not to by his master. Yes I understand very well with what I dealing with.

Now to a degree I agree with you about the hiding. But I think its more the comfort of a schoolmaster. Some people are that way. Yes they behave like ostriches.

VictorC · Jan 22, 2014

VictorC said:
Why does Romans 7 clearly indicate we've been delivered from the Ten Commandments? And as a follow up question, who is the 'we' that "have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by"? As a Gentile from Barbados, does this passage even include you?
The immediate context answers all of these questions. We would like to see you address them, as we have.

Elder 111 said:
Again you have quoted what and reply to what you like to achieve your end, not Ellen's.
let pothers read my full response.

Fixed that for you

Why do you want 'pothers' to read your vain repetition of error?
Is it so that 'pothers' can discern for themselves that you skipped class when verbs were being taught?
Is it so that 'pothers' can see that your obfuscation got you so twisted up that you ended up telling us that the 'another law' of sin and death is "holy and just and good"?
Is it so that 'pothers' can see that your whole premise depends on reversing the relationship Scripture shows between the Law and the recipients, and posit an argument that doesn't even answer the questions posed to you? Or that your premise isn't even related to the inspired text you were supposed to be reviewing?
Is it to prove to 'pothers' that your convoluted reasoning is the result of abject rebellion against the Gospel?

Pop-quizzes are useful tools to determine where someone is on the learning curve. It also exposes who the class clown is. Others have pointed out that the sponge has been replaced with a brick that doesn't absorb anything, and I guess that sums up your commitment to unBiblical garbage theology.

from scratch · Jan 22, 2014

VictorC said:
Elder111,
How is it that you can be so wrong with such consistency?
Didn't you even get to verses 13-20? Did you rip Romans 5 from your Bible? Don't you even know what Adam's transgression was?
My observation is entirely accurate:

You can't explain anything - at all. Do you really think others are so gullible they're going to believe your implied claim that you never sinned, just because you can't transgress a legally binding covenant God never gave to you?
The question is rhetorical.

Neither can a parrot explain anything.

from scratch · Jan 22, 2014

genez said:
It appears he is here to find out how well he has been trained by his spirit guide to see how well he can frustrate those who see through his false teachings, and win over the stupid at the same time. The trouble he still faces, the stupid will maybe give a listen to his opposition. He is determined not to give a listen. He acts like he works on commission.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his
salary depends upon his not understanding it." — Upton Sinclair

.

So far I've not seen any converts from here in 3 and a half years. He's not doing very well.

Very good quote from Mr. Sinclair. Its been part of my philosophy for as long as I can remember.

Elder 111 · Jan 22, 2014

genez said:
Read the following carefully. Read it several times if need be. But, read it as if you were reading it for the first time, and not as you have been trained and inculcated to see it.
Romans 7:11-12

For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law
is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

What that is saying?

Here is the key... Why is the Law holy?

The Law was holy because it was always there to tell Paul what sin is. For without the Law? Man would not define what sin is. For all men sin, there would be no standard standing before them to point out what sin is. The Law is holy, because it stands in man's way and tells man that what he does is sin! That he is a sinner!
.

Why is it that you and others become so unrealistic and illogical just to hold an untenable position? How can you accept that the law is Holy because it tell me I am a sinner? For example the law says do not steal. The fact that that is said does not in itself make me a sinner. I become a sinner only when I steal, not just because the law says I should not steal.

genez said:

Like a holy guardian would not, the Law does not let us get away with wrong doing!

Click to expand...

genez said:
Its like a strict, loving parent who tells us what not to do. And, tells us off when we have done something wrong..

The parent is not the law but the law giver is the parent. The law is the rule the parent has set down.

genez said:
But...

The Law can not make us holy. It can only tell us how wrong we are. By trying to do the Law we find out we can not keep the Law. We must face we are hopelessly a sinner. In doing so, it prevents in man the delusion of self righteousness when its properly accepted.

The Law can only tell us how we are not holy! That we need a Savior, is its message. .

If the law makes us feel like a hopeless sinner, how can we at the same time be righteous? How can self righteousness enter in when one feels hopeless? It should be a good thing to feel the need of a savior, is it not so?

genez said:
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless,
I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law.

genez said:
Now that Christians have the Spirit from the inside (OT believers did not) helping us not to sin, we no longer need the Law to warn us from the outside to tell us off when we sin. We are now a new creation in Christ, and have died to having need for the Law to be our big brother. __________________

.

If the OT believers did not have the Holy Spirit how was this possible? 2 Peter 1:21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
So Moses and Joseph, Job and Abraham, Noah and Enoch had no choice but to sin because there was no Holy Spirit for them? I suppose you would say they had no grace either?(Gen. 6:8)
So because I have the Holy Spirit I have no need to be told that I should not...? Yet Jesus when tempted referred to the written word. Mat 4. If Jesus our example referred to the written, are we now greater than Him?

Elder 111 · Jan 22, 2014

VictorC said:
Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth. 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will? 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, Why have you made me like this? 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I'm of the mind that everyone has some divine purpose, just as I look back on the common practice of assembling on Sunday instead of settling on the sabbath. The differences between each vessel exposes a root of error with brilliance that can't be ignored, and it causes us to ask important questions and seek God's Word for His answer. The day we assemble with like-minded believers doesn't matter, once we understand that the shadows of the Law illustrate a greater reality that doesn't even follow a periodic cycle. It is with equal brilliance that the cults stemming from the 19th Century draw attention to themselves - they cause us to ask the questions and find the right answers. The end of those committed to error doesn't change, but the elect of God come away from the experience with a greater appreciation for God's redemption - His purchase and adoption, the medium of exchange He used as our propitiation, and what it was that He purchased us from. This is what I hope a discussion forum accomplishes for His elect, and we don't have any control over the tools God chooses to use to teach us the breadth and magnitude of His Gospel.

It does not matter what God commandments, just as long as we assemble on a day.
1 Sam. 15:
21 But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the Lord thy God in Gilgal.
22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Elder 111 · Jan 22, 2014

genez said:
Answer this, please.

Do not divert. Just answer with a yes, or no.

Are you judging us because we do not observe the Sabbath?

Judging? Of course not. That is God role not mine!

Elder 111 · Jan 22, 2014

from scratch said:
Yes the only thing you really said differently than me was to mention Devine purpose. To which I agree. I don't feel or understand its my God given purpose to convert him. He's a tool just like you said.

I'll certainly agree that false doctrine is necessary to show the truth. The pseudo truth is testimony to the real thing or it wouldn't be trying to replace the truth.

There are quite a few passages with something to say on the subject and I chose this one for the moment -

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Jude 4

How can the Ten Commandments deny God?

Elder 111 · Jan 22, 2014

from scratch said:
One thing is for sure - he and I aren't friends. Like I said for me it isn't about or for him. It could be if he'd listen. But like you said he won't. I think its cause he's under orders not to by his master. Yes I understand very well with what I dealing with.

Now to a degree I agree with you about the hiding. But I think its more the comfort of a schoolmaster. Some people are that way. Yes they behave like ostriches.

You are correct about one thing, I could not have said it better. I am under orders from my master, Jesus Christ.

GenemZ · Jan 22, 2014

Elder 111 said:
Why is it that you and others become so unrealistic and illogical just to hold an untenable position?

You're really probably from Idaho.

Have a nice day. You have reached the honor of being on my Ignore list. For you pathologically ignore any truth presented to you that shows you how you are on the wrong side of the door.

I am taking a sabbatical from whoever Elder may really be. For he is not real.

VictorC · Jan 22, 2014

Elder 111 said:
It does not matter what God commandments, just as long as we assemble on a day.
1 Sam. 15:
21 But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the Lord thy God in Gilgal.
22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

You seem content to disobey God's commandments, and then post commentary to condemn yourself. That is weird.

VictorC · Jan 22, 2014

Elder 111 said:
How can the Ten Commandments deny God?

No relation to quoted material.

VictorC · Jan 22, 2014

Elder 111 said:
Why is it that you and others become so unrealistic and illogical just to hold an untenable position?

We've witnessed you rejecting what God told Moses, what Moses testified to the congregation, what God told the congregation, what Jesus said describing the sabbath and God's adopted children - and this last round saw you rejecting what Paul wrote in his epistle to the Roman church.

You certainly don't have grounds to call our reliance on Scripture 'untenable', especially in light of your failure to identify any errors in our presentation.

GenemZ · Jan 23, 2014

VictorC said:
We've witnessed you rejecting what God told Moses, what Moses testified to the congregation, what God told the congregation, what Jesus said describing the sabbath and God's adopted children - and this last round saw you rejecting what Paul wrote in his epistle to the Roman church.

You certainly don't have grounds to call our reliance on Scripture 'untenable', especially in light of your failure to identify any errors in our presentation.

I once read a humorous quip that stated liberalism is a mental disorder. There is a parallel. Liberals do to politics what some do to doctrine. They both can not see that what they think and believe is anti-reality.

.

Sophrosyne · Jan 23, 2014

genez said:
I once read a humorous quip that stated liberalism is a mental disease. There is a parallel. Liberals do to politics what some do to doctrine. They both can not see that what they think and believe is anti-reality.

It is called sin.... it blinds some to the truth.

GenemZ · Jan 23, 2014

Sophrosyne said:
It is called sin.... it blinds some to the truth.

Not really. If you refute them, and they go into a rage? That's sin. But, what they do (think) is more than just sin.

Sin comes from the inborn impulse to do wrong which resides in our flesh. Now, creating a system of thinking to try to justify sin? Now, that is evil. There is a difference. Jesus died for our sins. He did not die for evil.

When we sin? We can simply name it to God, and we are forgiven. (1 Jn 1:9)

But, when someone lives by thinking evil? That requires more than just naming one's sin for forgiveness. It requires repentance. It requires that you go through the process of changing you system of thinking.

Repentance, means to change your thinking. To do so, requires learning and accepting knowledge and truth to push out and replace the system of evil.

Elder 111 · Jan 23, 2014

VictorC said:
We've witnessed you rejecting what God told Moses, what Moses testified to the congregation, what God told the congregation, what Jesus said describing the sabbath and God's adopted children - and this last round saw you rejecting what Paul wrote in his epistle to the Roman church.

You certainly don't have grounds to call our reliance on Scripture 'untenable', especially in light of your failure to identify any errors in our presentation.

That is because they were not errors. They are complete refusals to accept stated biblical principles with the intention of making me look as the one that is in the wrong. But the bible speaks for itself for all that would accept it.

What have you understood about the charcater of The Ten Commandments?? (2)

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