What have you understood about the charcater of The Ten Commandments?? (2)

[Sophrosyne]

The Law was holy because it was always there to tell Paul what is sin. For without the Law man would not understand what sin is. For all men sin. The Law is holy, because it tells man that he sins! That he is a sinner!

Like a holy guardian, the Law does not let us get away with wrong doing! Its like a strict loving parent who tells us what not to do, and tells us off when we have done something wrong.

But?

The Law can not make us holy. It can only tell us how wrong we are. In doing so, it prevents in man the delusion of self righteousness when its properly accepted.

The Law can only tell us how we are not holy! That we need a Savior, is its message.

7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law.
​

Now that Christians have the Spirit from the inside (OT believers did not) helping us not to sin, we no longer need the Law to warn us from the outside and tell us off when we sin. We are a new creation in Christ, and have died to having need for the Law to be our big brother.

Actually the Law only defines what sin is prior to Jesus ministry here and now sin is more than the Law equates. Under the Law one was not a sinner if they didn't murder someone, but now hating someone is akin to murder and a sin. I consider the Law an instrument to define a group of people and confine the worst sins but in itself it doesn't equate love it equates "not hate" and even then it is the "not hate" that can be seen as an action to others.

 

[GenemZ]

Actually the Law only defines what sin is prior to Jesus ministry here and now sin is more than the Law equates. Under the Law one was not a sinner if they didn't murder someone, but now hating someone is akin to murder and a sin. I consider the Law an instrument to define a group of people and confine the worst sins but in itself it doesn't equate love it equates "not hate" and even then it is the "not hate" that can be seen as an action to others.

Why did you just do that?

Elder gets distracted easy enough.

Stop! Let him absorb the basics first.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Why did you just do that?

Elder gets distracted easy enough.

Stop! Let him absorb the basics first.

One cannot absorb any more when their "sponge" is already full of something else... you have to first get them to empty their "sponge". I have witnessed the typical evasiveness to consider the tough arguments that would shake his faith (or squeeze his sponge). His sponge was replaced by a brick named Ellen I think.

 

[GenemZ]

To be honest with you, it will not go anywhere until you can explain why God's holy law is against His grace? Why must Christians dismiss God's hand written requirement to worship Him alone?

Read the following carefully. Read it several times if need be. But, read it as if you were reading it for the first time, and not as you have been trained and inculcated to see it.

Romans 7:11-12

For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law
is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
​

What that is saying?


Here is the key... Why is the Law holy?


The Law was holy because it was always there to tell Paul what sin is. For without the Law? Man would not define what sin is. For all men sin, there would be no standard standing before them to point out what sin is. The Law is holy, because it stands in man's way and tells man that what he does is sin! That he is a sinner!

Like a holy guardian would not, the Law does not let us get away with wrong doing! Its like a strict, loving parent who tells us what not to do. And, tells us off when we have done something wrong.

But...

The Law can not make us holy. It can only tell us how wrong we are. By trying to do the Law we find out we can not keep the Law. We must face we are hopelessly a sinner. In doing so, it prevents in man the delusion of self righteousness when its properly accepted.

The Law can only tell us how we are not holy! That we need a Savior, is its message.

7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless,
I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law.


​

Now that Christians have the Spirit from the inside (OT believers did not) helping us not to sin, we no longer need the Law to warn us from the outside to tell us off when we sin. We are now a new creation in Christ, and have died to having need for the Law to be our big brother. __________________




.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Sophrosyne

Actually the Law only defines what sin is prior to Jesus ministry here and now sin is more than the Law equates. Under the Law one was not a sinner if they didn't murder someone, but now hating someone is akin to murder and a sin. I consider the Law an instrument to define a group of people and confine the worst sins but in itself it doesn't equate love it equates "not hate" and even then it is the "not hate" that can be seen as an action to others.
​

Why did you just do that?

Elder gets distracted easy enough.

Stop! Let him absorb the basics first.

"LISTEN UP YOU CHRISTIAN RECRUITS! TIME FOR YOU TO GET BACK TO THE BASICS!"

.....

 

[GenemZ]

"LISTEN UP YOU CHRISTIAN RECRUITS! TIME FOR YOU TO GET BACK TO THE BASICS!"

.....

That is exactly what Isaiah told the apostate Jews when he told them..

“Whom will he teach knowledge?
And whom will he make to understand the message?
Those just weaned from milk?
Those just drawn from the breasts?

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little.”

Isaiah 28:9-10
​

Isaiah was dragging them back to the basics. They resented him for it at first. For, once someone enters into apostasy he forgets everything as it should be known. They had to start all over again. Its a Biblical principle.

 

[GenemZ]

"LISTEN UP YOU CHRISTIAN RECRUITS! TIME FOR YOU TO GET BACK TO THE BASICS!"

.....

Funny that should come up. Because earlier today the Lord was ministering to me something that I was not sure if I should use here.

Anyone here who has served in the military will know that when you are new in the army your drill sergeant can easily seem to you to be a son of a b___ch, and think at times that he may hate you.

But, its his love that makes him that way. For he is putting you though what the enemy would, but in a way designed to alert you, as to keep you alive. He will deceive you like an enemy would, only to expose what you are up against.

He can give a command an trick you at times. Then tell you what a jack a__ you just were. He will then show you how you would have been a dead man if you did it that way. By doing so, he was potentially saving your life when in battle in the future.

Likewise, the Law deceived Paul in a manner that caused death. It tricked him into death by telling him to do something that would backfire on him, because Paul had a sin nature. It was to show him that if he continued doing things a certain way (ending in sin) that he would be a dead man (spiritually).

Romans 7:10-12

I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through
the commandment put me to death.
So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.


​

The Law was like a hard nosed, no-compromise, drill sergeant to the soul. It was designed to trip you up to expose where you are weak as a means to teach you. It was to show you the need for protection from yourself. (Obey the mandates of the Law, and you will be kept behind a wall of protection from God)

But, after the Cross? That area of weakness had been crucified with Christ, and is now to be reckoned dead. You no longer are to live, but Christ.

It says that Christ lives in us by faith. Faith? Faith is the Bible Truth we choose to accept and believe. The Holy Spirit will make your faith to become a living part of you, not simply having knowledge of God's Word that you know.

Therefore, we have no more need, as the OT believers did, for the Law to deceive us to trick us into exposing our sin to us how we fail God. For now the Holy Spirit will convict us internally from within if we sin. We as the Church have a living mentor residing inside us. We do not need the externalized written code of law like the OT believers did.

But, we will get the Law handed to us when we resist the Spirit within us. Just the same, if one has a humble heart before God, we will be walking with the Law enforced within us in a living form. With gentleness, not like the harsh realities to be found in the Law. Some Christians commit adultery, and repent. In the OT, they would have been stoned to death.

 

[Elder 111]

Neither did you. Why does Romans 7 clearly indicate we've been delivered from the Ten Commandments?

It says that we are delivered from the law. What is Paul saying? what does he mean? does he mean that we as Christians are not subject to/should not regard the Ten Commandments? A look at the Ten commandments would give us a definite NO! How could we not be subject to:

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
4. Thou shalt not kill.
5. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
6. Thou shalt not steal.
7. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

What did Paul really say any way?
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: (How can this mean the Ten Commandments have no obligation over us?)

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (Who will deliver? But notice it is not from the law but from death)

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. ( Jesus is the deliverer. But Paul says he serves the law of God, so how is he delivered from keeping it then?)
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. (Explain why would God remove that which is ordained to life?

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. (Does a holy God remove the Holy or the unholy? Paul ask a similar question below)

13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Since when are we taught that the spiritual things of God are not for us, His faithful children?

And as a follow up question, who is the 'we' that "have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by"? As a Gentile from Barbados, does this passage even include you?
The immediate context answers all of these questions. We would like to see you address them, as we have.

The we is every Christian. We all have been delivered form death by the blood of Christ because we violated His holy Ten Commandment law. Glory to God in the highest and praise to His name for every more.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[VictorC]

It says that we are delivered from the law. What is Paul saying? what does he mean? does he mean that we as Christians are not subject to/should not regard the Ten Commandments? A look at the Ten commandments would give us a definite NO!

Well, turning your attention away from the context tells me that you don't care why God delivered us from the Ten Commandments. The Apostle Paul was very clear with his statement made by inspiration of the Holy Ghost - God's deliverance from the Ten Commandments that held the recipients in the past tense is a fait accompli in the perfect tense, and is not even subject to debate anymore. Yet you rendered the wrong answer to rebel against God's Hand of mercy.

How could we not be subject to:

And a leading reason you're wrong stems from reversing the relationship Paul defined as what kept whom in the past tense. Your attention is focused on 'keeping' the Law, which is in error. Your expression isn't even related to the context.

The we is every Christian.

You are again wrong. Verse 1 provided the answer that identifies the 'we' that have been delivered from the Law: "for I speak to those who know the law". Paul doesn't address the Gentiles in this passage. He is addressing the Jews who have placed their faith in Christ's redemption from the entity that owned them in the past tense - the Law.

We all have been delivered form death

Not yet, as you've made the transition to 'another law' of sin and death, which is not the Ten Commandments. You erred by leaving the immediate context, and redemption from death is presented in the future tense in Romans 7:24.

by the blood of Christ because we violated His holy Ten Commandment law.

No, you're wrong again, since you aren't included in the 'we' who have been delivered from the Ten Commandments. You never had it to begin with. Other passages in Paul's epistles describe how the Gentiles shared in God's redemption, but these leave the immediate context that doesn't include them.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And notice too that you quoted verse 24, that shows deliverance from death in the future tense, and is not even the same topic as the Law we have been delivered from in the perfect tense, shown in verse 6.

Each answer you provided was wrong, and this was an open-book quiz you couldn't have failed so badly unless that was your intent to begin with. It actually takes more work to fabricate error than it does to see the answers already provided in the text you had in your hands.

 

[Elder 111]

This is where cognitive dissonance takes over in your post, where it becomes clear that you can't differentiate transgression from sin. Romans 5 even refers to the origin of Adam's sin via a transgression that isn't even in the Mosaic covenant. At this point you can't explain how sin existed in mankind thousands of years before the Ten Commandments existed.

Sin is not transgression? What did John say? Or you can't explain how Cain was guilty of murder with no commandment not to kill? How could Joseph sin with no commandment that forbid to commit adultery?

 

[from scratch]

That is not evangelizing. Its attempted brainwashing.

If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself.

Paul Joseph Goebbels (29 October 1897 – 1 May 1945) was Adolf Hitler's Propaganda Minister.
​

OK I'll buy that. The end result is conversion.

 

[from scratch]

Neither did you. Why does Romans 7 clearly indicate we've been delivered from the Ten Commandments? And as a follow up question, who is the 'we' that "have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by"? As a Gentile from Barbados, does this passage even include you?
The immediate context answers all of these questions. We would like to see you address them, as we have.

His position is that he's been adopted into Israel and thus obligated to the covenant issued at Sinai. He refuses to accept Jeremiah's prophecy and the Testimony of Jesus.

 

[from scratch]

He has already been shown that. He can not hear, it appears.

Is he becoming a bad habit? I think we should just pack up our bags and leave him to his delusion.

That would be fine if it were just his delusion. Unfortunately its not. I already know I can't change him even with the Bible. I'm here to discuss his theology and help any honest seeking person find the truth.

One of Hitler's tools was the silence of the Church.

 

[VictorC]

Sin is not transgression? What did John say? Or you can't explain how Cain was guilty of murder with no commandment not to kill? How could Joseph sin with no commandment that forbid to commit adultery?

Elder111,
How is it that you can be so wrong with such consistency?
Didn't you even get to verses 13-20? Did you rip Romans 5 from your Bible? Don't you even know what Adam's transgression was?
My observation is entirely accurate:

At this point you can't explain how sin existed in mankind thousands of years before the Ten Commandments existed.

You can't explain anything - at all. Do you really think others are so gullible they're going to believe your implied claim that you never sinned, just because you can't transgress a legally binding covenant God never gave to you?
The question is rhetorical.

 

[VictorC]

One cannot absorb any more when their "sponge" is already full of something else... you have to first get them to empty their "sponge". I have witnessed the typical evasiveness to consider the tough arguments that would shake his faith (or squeeze his sponge). His sponge was replaced by a brick named Ellen I think.

I'm speechless. I think you're onto something here!

 

[VictorC]

That would be fine if it were just his delusion. Unfortunately its not. I already know I can't change him even with the Bible. I'm here to discuss his theology and help any honest seeking person find the truth.

Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I'm of the mind that everyone has some divine purpose, just as I look back on the common practice of assembling on Sunday instead of settling on the sabbath. The differences between each vessel exposes a root of error with brilliance that can't be ignored, and it causes us to ask important questions and seek God's Word for His answer. The day we assemble with like-minded believers doesn't matter, once we understand that the shadows of the Law illustrate a greater reality that doesn't even follow a periodic cycle. It is with equal brilliance that the cults stemming from the 19th Century draw attention to themselves - they cause us to ask the questions and find the right answers. The end of those committed to error doesn't change, but the elect of God come away from the experience with a greater appreciation for God's redemption - His purchase and adoption, the medium of exchange He used as our propitiation, and what it was that He purchased us from. This is what I hope a discussion forum accomplishes for His elect, and we don't have any control over the tools God chooses to use to teach us the breadth and magnitude of His Gospel.

 

[GenemZ]

It says that we are delivered from the law. What is Paul saying? what does he mean? does he mean that we as Christians are not subject to/should not regard the Ten Commandments? A look at the Ten commandments would give us a definite NO! How could we not be subject to:

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
4. Thou shalt not kill.
5. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
6. Thou shalt not steal.
7. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Answer this, please.

Do not divert. Just answer with a yes, or no.

Are you judging us because we do not observe the Sabbath?

 

[from scratch]

Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I'm of the mind that everyone has some divine purpose, just as I look back on the common practice of assembling on Sunday instead of settling on the sabbath. The differences between each vessel exposes a root of error with brilliance that can't be ignored, and it causes us to ask important questions and seek God's Word for His answer. The day we assemble with like-minded believers doesn't matter, once we understand that the shadows of the Law illustrate a greater reality that doesn't even follow a periodic cycle. It is with equal brilliance that the cults stemming from the 19th Century draw attention to themselves - they cause us to ask the questions and find the right answers. The end of those committed to error doesn't change, but the elect of God come away from the experience with a greater appreciation for God's redemption - His purchase and adoption, the medium of exchange He used as our propitiation, and what it was that He purchased us from. This is what I hope a discussion forum accomplishes for His elect, and we don't have any control over the tools God chooses to use to teach us the breadth and magnitude of His Gospel.

Yes the only thing you really said differently than me was to mention Devine purpose. To which I agree. I don't feel or understand its my God given purpose to convert him. He's a tool just like you said.

I'll certainly agree that false doctrine is necessary to show the truth. The pseudo truth is testimony to the real thing or it wouldn't be trying to replace the truth.

There are quite a few passages with something to say on the subject and I chose this one for the moment -

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Jude 4

 

[GenemZ]

That would be fine if it were just his delusion. Unfortunately its not. I already know I can't change him even with the Bible. I'm here to discuss his theology and help any honest seeking person find the truth.

One of Hitler's tools was the silence of the Church.

It appears he is here to find out how well he has been trained by his spirit guide to see how well he can frustrate those who see through his false teachings, and win over the stupid at the same time. The trouble he still faces, the stupid will maybe give a listen to his opposition. He is determined not to give a listen. He acts like he works on commission.

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his
salary depends upon his not understanding it." — Upton Sinclair




.
​

 

[GenemZ]

Originally Posted by Elder 111

Are you the saying that the Ten Commandments is not Holy Just and good? Or that we have been delivered from that which is holy just and good? Explain for all to see!
​

You did not answer the question.

I did answer. Very well, matter of fact. For those who already have understanding on the mater.

Let's try it this way. Crutches are a good thing. Are they not? Like the Law is holy.

Crutches are good for those with bad legs. Like the Law is good for those OT saints who who had a sin nature without having the indwelling Holy Spirit to negate the effects of the sin nature.

For the Jews in the OT did not receive the indwelling Holy Spirit to control their sin nature at regeneration. So, God knew that they would need a crutch. A good and holy crutch. The Law.

For the OT saint the Law constrained and constricted the will to not act upon the desires of the sin nature out of fear of reprisal that was found in the Law. In that way, the Law was holy. Because it prevented overt expression of the destructive sin nature. But, that was done out of a fear of reprisal, i.e, special time consuming and money consuming rituals for sin. And, for the extreme, stoning, etc.

But now we have the indwelling Holy Spirit to negate the power of the sin nature. We can throw away those old crutches. We can now walk without them!

I don't think you have the Holy Spirit empowering you. You may have a concept, but not the reality. Those who know the reality, see what you are doing as unfortunate. Yet, in your ignorance. You think you are wise. You do not know what you are missing. We do.

Romans 8:5-6

Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those
who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.

The mind controlled by the flesh is death,
but the mind controlled by the Spirit is capacity for life and prosperity of soul.
​

Galatians 5:16
​

So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not
gratify the desires of the flesh.


​

If you walk in the Law, you learn what to AVOID in gratifying the desires of the flesh. If you walk in the Spirit, you will not gratify the desires of the flesh, because, by virtue of the new nature? The Holy Spirit's control bestows upon you power not to walk in the sin natures desires.

If you are Spirit controlled you will not need to memorize the the Law as to know when to set up a prohibition by willing not to do something you want to do. As a spiritual man, you would possess new instincts and ability without even knowing the Law. For, the Gentiles who believed in Christ did not study the Law after they were saved. They were only taught principles extracted from the Law, but not the Law itself.

Now, go ignore everything that was said. For, you act like your brain's reasoning ability is on a permanent Sabbath. Its sad to watch.