What gives us the right to kill on the Battlefield?

[12volt_man]

I mean "murder." Oops.

The problem is, as I've pointed out to you a couple of times now, is that the Bible differentiates from different kinds of killing.

The word translated as "murder", as in, "thou shalt do no", is ratsach. Notice that we don't see this word anywhere in scripture associated with killing in battle, self defence or capital punishment.

 

[12volt_man]

hm? it also says to obey God rather than men.

Once again, you're taking scripture out of context.

The verse you're referring to, Acts 5:29, is referring to preaching the Gospel.

The principle here isn't that we should ignore God's command to be in submission to Earthly authorities, but that we should choose to follow God's laws over man's when the two contradict. Since I can't find anyplace in scripture where warfare or soldiering are condemned, I don't see how this verse is applicable here.

While we should always try to obey God rather than men, simple logic tells us that, if we are commanded to be in submission to the government, then to obey the government is to obey God.

It simply isn't logical to say, "I will obey God by disobeying God."

I will not kill for the sake of telling they're compatriots that they're way is wrong.

Nor would I.

 

[Faith In God]

Once again, you're taking scripture out of context.

The verse you're referring to, Acts 5:29, is referring to preaching the Gospel.

The principle here isn't that we should ignore God's command to be in submission to Earthly authorities, but that we should choose to follow God's laws over man's when the two contradict. Since I can't find anyplace in scripture where warfare or soldiering are condemned, I don't see how this verse is applicable here.

While we should always try to obey God rather than men, simple logic tells us that, if we are commanded to be in submission to the government, then to obey the government is to obey God.

It simply isn't logical to say, "I will obey God by disobeying God."



Nor would I.

hm? so if the government says to kill all your firstborn, you do it? arguing, of course, that God Himself says to obey the government?


And that is what the war on Iraq is about. We go to war to establish a democracy, saying that they're government is not right as it is.

 

[Faith In God]

hm? so if the government says to kill all your firstborn, you do it? arguing, of course, that God Himself says to obey the government?


And that is what the war on Iraq is about. We go to war to establish a democracy, saying that they're government is not right as it is.

oh! don't listen to the first para. let me rephrase that.

 

[Faith In God]

Once again, you're taking scripture out of context.

The verse you're referring to, Acts 5:29, is referring to preaching the Gospel.

The principle here isn't that we should ignore God's command to be in submission to Earthly authorities, but that we should choose to follow God's laws over man's when the two contradict. Since I can't find anyplace in scripture where warfare or soldiering are condemned, I don't see how this verse is applicable here.

While we should always try to obey God rather than men, simple logic tells us that, if we are commanded to be in submission to the government, then to obey the government is to obey God.

It simply isn't logical to say, "I will obey God by disobeying God."



Nor would I.

"it is enough that a slave be like his master."

okay. we are to emulate Jesus. Now, do you see Jesus as going to basic training being taught how to kill people in numerous ways?

The Israelites did not have a military. They were only the citizens with some swords they picked up, all the other countries outmatched them in skill and usually numbers, but only through God did they win. They did not have a military. And we train them, not trusting in God as the Israelites did; seeing as your justification comes from the OT.

 

[12volt_man]

hm? so if the government says to kill all your firstborn, you do it? arguing, of course, that God Himself says to obey the government?

I believe you're smart enough to realize that there is a difference between going to war to defend your country, your allies and your interests and arbitrarily killing babies.

And that is what the war on Iraq is about. We go to war to establish a democracy, saying that they're government is not right as it is.

Actually, that's not why we continued the war in Iraq at all. The fact that we have replaced their dictatorship with a rudimentary democracy is a pleasant consequence, but not the reason we reconvened the war.

Regardless, whether you agree or disagree with the war is another discussion for another thread. This thread concerns, specifically, the morality of killing in wartime.

 

[Faith In God]

I believe you're smart enough to realize that there is a difference between going to war to defend your country, your allies and your interests and arbitrarily killing babies.



Actually, that's not why we continued the war in Iraq at all. The fact that we have replaced their dictatorship with a rudimentary democracy is a pleasant consequence, but not the reason we reconvened the war.

Regardless, whether you agree or disagree with the war is another discussion for another thread. This thread concerns, specifically, the morality of killing in wartime.

oh, yes. very good point.

and, yes, i posted and changed that top part.

 

[12volt_man]

Now, do you see Jesus as going to basic training being taught how to kill people in numerous ways?

First of all, if you read the Old Testament, Jesus is quite familiar with the various ways to dispatch an enemy.

Second, while Jesus did not serve in the military (perhaps he was 4-F), he does not condemn doing so. In addition, as I mentioned before, there are many soldiers in scripture who are commended for being men of great faith, not to mention the fact (that I have brought up several times and you keep ignoring) that the Bible teaches us that no less an authority than God, Himself, has ordained government to weild the sword to punish evildoers.

Third, and another fact that you ignore, not only did Jesus not condemn violence outright, He instructed His followers to buy swords. Notice that when Peter cut off the servant's ear (perhaps with the very sword that Jesus told him to buy), Jesus doesn't rebuke him for the act, itself.

The Israelites did not have a military. They were only the citizens with some swords they picked up, all the other countries outmatched them in skill and usually numbers, but only through God did they win. They did not have a military.

And we train them, not trusting in God as the Israelites did; seeing as your justification comes from the OT.

I fail to see how training is a failure to trust in God.

So, first, you tried to differentiate the US (presumably the US) from Israel and exclaimed that we are not a theocracy and now, when it suits your purpose, you are comparing us to Israel. Which is it?

 

[Katydid]

OK I was going to read and see where this is going, but I cannot read anymore about people judging my husband and I for our very prayerfully accepted way of life. Maybe you don't realize this but you are JUDGING everyone who chooses to serve. I cannot watch you insist that my husband lives in sin, and I cannot watch you sin by judging those you have no right to judge.

 

[Katydid]

OK I lied because I just read a quote. Israel did have a military, read in Numbers I believe where they are called out. Specific ages were required to fight.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Let me just say that I will not argue definitions or scriptures on this one. This is the second time that I have felt that my family, especially my husband, is being judged. My husband is the most faithful, prayerful, loving man I know. He is completely nonconfrontational in every way. He is truly a turn the other cheek kinda guy. Yet, he is a soldier. To you, that seems like those two things don't go together, but what you don't realize is the mindset of a soldier. They do not fight because they want to. They don't do it for glory or honor or medals or to look tough. They do this out of love. Love for their G-d, thier country, their family, and all of you who don't understand or don't care. My husband believes, as do I, that he is protecting your right to pray, your right to protest, your right to live and breath. If G-d were to look at him and tell him, "hey, you killed someone so you can't get into heaven", his first question would be, "but my wife and kids and family can, right?". He is the definition of selfless service. I cannot believe how many people judge soldiers for what they do. They are usually the ones praying when all others don't. We have Chaplains there to give people their appropriate rituals if they die, to minister to them before, during, and after battle. The medics and Chaplains are also there to help the enemy troops. Please do not judge my husband or any other soldier for what they do. You do not have the right to do that, only G-d does. Is murder right, NO. Is protecting your family and billions of strangers right, YES. That is what my husband does. He protects your right to state that he may go to hell. That he is a murderer. So the next time you decide that his job is wrong, then just remember that he and all the men by his side now, those from the past, and those yet to come are the ones giving you the right to feel that way.

I can only give my thanks and prayers to you Kat. I am a vet and I and my family know the sacrifices you and your husband are dealing with. While others here will curse you and condemn you and your husband I can only offer up my prayers for you. It's apalling to me that there are christians on this site that would even suggest what your husband is doing is some how wrong.

If I could I wish I was with your husband right now and holding his hand and thanking him and letting him know that I appreciate everything he's doing and that God is with him.

I pray he remains safe and remains in Gods care...


As for the forumer(TRISHBOD) who rudely disgraced this women and her husband by questioning her husbands job I can only offer up my prayers to you too sir. May the Lord have mercy on you. You may think you're above it all but untill you realize your nothing God will treat you as so!

neph

 

[nephilimiyr]

How many people have "CHRISTIANS" from USA killed since then? In the name of who?

Many multiples less than what the other half of the world has killed of it's own!

<>< you love to judge christians from the USA but don't at all take into account the heart in which those men fought and died? You don't show yourself as on any kind of moral high ground sir! I pray you fall down on your knees and pray to the almighty God!

 

[nephilimiyr]

Would you kill/murder the people in my icon photo for GW Bush?

I'm sure he wouldn't but I'm also sure that you have condemned all those men in your tidy little photo to hell anyway!

 

[hraedisc]

Many multiples less than what the other half of the world has killed of it's own!

<>< you love to judge christians from the USA but don't at all take into account the heart in which those men fought and died? You don't show yourself as on any kind of moral high ground sir! I pray you fall down on your knees and pray to the almighty God!

The point was directed at a person who claims to be a Christian who lives in USA. In the eyes of some, USA is a "Christian" nation (actually, a nation with many Christians), hence the significance of my jab. ("the other half of the world" isn't claiming to be Christian, are they?)

I am not "judging" Christians from the USA in the sense that you think. I am determining a person's position based upon his beliefs. I condemn not.

1 Corinthians 2
15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things...

 

[hraedisc]

I'm sure he wouldn't but I'm also sure that you have condemned all those men in your tidy little photo to hell anyway!

I reject their religion as the religion that comes from God, but I do not condemn the individuals.

 

[TSIBHOD]

As for the forumer(TRISHBOD) who rudely disgraced this women and her husband by questioning her husbands job I can only offer up my prayers to you too sir. May the Lord have mercy on you. You may think you're above it all but untill you realize your nothing God will treat you as so!

I can only assume that this is a reference to me, although the name is greatly mutilated.

May the Lord have mercy on you too! I sincerely hope that He does have mercy on both of us, since we all need His mercy! However, from your tone, I rather doubt that you really hope that the Lord will have mercy on me. Your tone would indicate that your hope is probably more along the lines of, "I hope the Lord will teach that boy a lesson!" If that is not the way you really feel, then perhaps you should work on keeping out the judgmental statements that your post was filled with.

My post said that those who kill others are not doing the best that they can. Okay, lots of us do less than our best all the time, and it doesn't mean that we are condemned, but that we have room for improvement. Your post, on the other hand, has the general outlook of, "You need to realize how little you know, and then you'll start to know more, like me, son." In other words, your tone was very judgmental and condescending.

I too can respond to your posts by saying, "I am outraged that nephilimiyr would say such a thing. It is a total disrespect to all those who thought that pacificism was the holiest way of life, and gave themselves up to the physical violence of their enemies while praying for them. Neph, I can only hope that God will have mercy on you (because you especially need it!). I pray that God will open your eyes, which have been so totally blinded."

See, I can do it too. I was just giving an example above, though, and you really meant it in your post. These kinds of ad hominem arguments do not prove anything.

 

[magnum]

Acts 10:1

says that Cornelius was a centurion "A soldier" yet he was filled with the holy spirit as Peter spoke to him. Seems that he was granted entrance to the kingdom even though he was a soldier. I think that settles the debate that only those who "Do not believ in God" are military men.

What crazy beliefs and debates. Makes me shake my head.

 

[TSIBHOD]

In my opinioin, at least, the issue is not salvific. I just think that Christians would do better to not be soldiers. But, each man must obey his own conscience, I suppose.

 

[nephilimiyr]

I reject their religion as the religion that comes from God, but I do not condemn the individuals.

Isn't that the pope in the white?

 

[nephilimiyr]

In my opinioin, at least, the issue is not salvific. I just think that Christians would do better to not be soldiers. But, each man must obey his own conscience, I suppose.

I would agree with that statement.