What gives us the right to kill on the Battlefield?

[theFijian]

Those who think that "killing" is okay, as opposed to murder, only need to answer one question here. How does killing your enemy show your love for him?

Jesus does not say, "Do unto others what they will do to you if you do not stop them."
Jesus says, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

If I was about to kill an innocent person (for whatever reason), I hope someone would stop me, using lethal force to if they had to.

 

[theFijian]

Since we're asking questions: How is passively allowing evil people to slaughter innocent people showing love?

Very good point. Sometimes Christians are faced with tough choices and we conceivably may have to choose the lesser of two evils. If it comes down to a choice between protecting a loved-one and killing an agressor, I believe the Bible allows us to use lethal force if necessary.

peace
Andy

 

[Zona]

who said anything about being passive? being passive is the same as condoning it (ie the ruler in Acts doing nothing when a mob beat a man) But doing the same thing to stop the situation is going against Christ's teaching

Good point. I will restate it: How is not doing ALL within your power to stop evil people from slaughtering innocent people showing love?

 

[Faith In God]

Very good point. Sometimes Christians are faced with tough choices and we conceivably may have to choose the lesser of two evils. If it comes down to a choice between protecting a loved-one and killing an agressor, I believe the Bible allows us to use lethal force if necessary.

peace
Andy

sigh. if the loved one is saved, i'd rather keep the aggressor alive to give him more time to repent, as the loved one's fate is secure.

 

[Faith In God]

Good point. I will restate it: How is not doing ALL within your power to stop evil people from slaughtering innocent people showing love?

well, then, I will use a more precise situation:

I come accross a man mugging another. the mugger has mugged and will be killing soon. what should I do? I should get in the way and stop the mugger from doing this evil. the question is to what extent do I do this? well, I must act in love to both people. in that case, killing the man would not be loving. hurting him wouldn't be so, either. If i could restrain him, then that would be best.

now, to war.

well, use the same reasoning. war would be like stopping a murderer from murdering by killing him. wouldn't that make you a murderer also?
as for justice, God will judge on the day of judgment.

 

[Katydid]

Let me just say that I will not argue definitions or scriptures on this one. This is the second time that I have felt that my family, especially my husband, is being judged. My husband is the most faithful, prayerful, loving man I know. He is completely nonconfrontational in every way. He is truly a turn the other cheek kinda guy. Yet, he is a soldier. To you, that seems like those two things don't go together, but what you don't realize is the mindset of a soldier. They do not fight because they want to. They don't do it for glory or honor or medals or to look tough. They do this out of love. Love for their G-d, thier country, their family, and all of you who don't understand or don't care. My husband believes, as do I, that he is protecting your right to pray, your right to protest, your right to live and breath. If G-d were to look at him and tell him, "hey, you killed someone so you can't get into heaven", his first question would be, "but my wife and kids and family can, right?". He is the definition of selfless service. I cannot believe how many people judge soldiers for what they do. They are usually the ones praying when all others don't. We have Chaplains there to give people their appropriate rituals if they die, to minister to them before, during, and after battle. The medics and Chaplains are also there to help the enemy troops. Please do not judge my husband or any other soldier for what they do. You do not have the right to do that, only G-d does. Is murder right, NO. Is protecting your family and billions of strangers right, YES. That is what my husband does. He protects your right to state that he may go to hell. That he is a murderer. So the next time you decide that his job is wrong, then just remember that he and all the men by his side now, those from the past, and those yet to come are the ones giving you the right to feel that way.

 

[12volt_man]

Let me just say that I will not argue definitions or scriptures on this one. This is the second time that I have felt that my family, especially my husband, is being judged. My husband is the most faithful, prayerful, loving man I know. He is completely nonconfrontational in every way. He is truly a turn the other cheek kinda guy. Yet, he is a soldier. To you, that seems like those two things don't go together, but what you don't realize is the mindset of a soldier. They do not fight because they want to. They don't do it for glory or honor or medals or to look tough. They do this out of love. Love for their G-d, thier country, their family, and all of you who don't understand or don't care. My husband believes, as do I, that he is protecting your right to pray, your right to protest, your right to live and breath. If G-d were to look at him and tell him, "hey, you killed someone so you can't get into heaven", his first question would be, "but my wife and kids and family can, right?". He is the definition of selfless service. I cannot believe how many people judge soldiers for what they do. They are usually the ones praying when all others don't. We have Chaplains there to give people their appropriate rituals if they die, to minister to them before, during, and after battle. The medics and Chaplains are also there to help the enemy troops. Please do not judge my husband or any other soldier for what they do. You do not have the right to do that, only G-d does. Is murder right, NO. Is protecting your family and billions of strangers right, YES. That is what my husband does. He protects your right to state that he may go to hell. That he is a murderer. So the next time you decide that his job is wrong, then just remember that he and all the men by his side now, those from the past, and those yet to come are the ones giving you the right to feel that way.

Please thank your husband for me for the great job he is doing and thanks you to you and your family, also, as you sacrifice for him to be able to serve.

OOH-RAH!
Semper Fi!

 

[Amadeus]

It's a battlefield. You kill on battlefields.

 

[12volt_man]

well, then, I will use a more precise situation:

I come accross a man mugging another. the mugger has mugged and will be killing soon. what should I do? I should get in the way and stop the mugger from doing this evil. the question is to what extent do I do this? well, I must act in love to both people. in that case, killing the man would not be loving. hurting him wouldn't be so, either.

Stopping someone from committing an act of violence upon another person is neither loving nor unloving, it is just the right thing to do.

If i could restrain him, then that would be best.

So what if restraint isn't an option? What if his actions force you to injure or kill him?

war would be like stopping a murderer from murdering by killing him. wouldn't that make you a murderer also?

Not necessarily. Remember that the Bible differentiates between different kinds of killing. The word translated "murder" is ratsach. Notice that we never see this word applied to killing in war, self defence or capital punishment.

as for justice, God will judge on the day of judgment.

But God's judgement is not the whole of justice. Remember that we are told to practice justice and Paul spends a good deal of time explaining to us that God has ordained the government to carry out justice.

No less an authority than Jesus, Himself, tells Pilate that God has ordained him with such authority.

 

[TSIBHOD]

Katydid, I would say that your husband may be doing something that is good, but that there are better things to do. I would not argue that he is going to hell.

People have talked about how you are showing love if you "let" someone kill someone else. Well, people die. It is not your responsibility to make sure that no one in this world murders anyone else. Your responsibility is to make sure that you don't murder anyone. If you come across a mugger, maybe you think it is loving to the victim to do violence to the mugger. But how is it loving to the mugger?

You who advocate violence are using the wisdom of men. "If someone has to die, let's make sure it is the bad man, and save the good man." In other words, you would rather have a bad man's blood on your hands than have a good man's blood on a bad man's hands. Just remember, as bad as any "bad guy" or terrorist looks to you, you look worse to God without the blood of Jesus. Yet, Jesus did not kill us for being sinners. Instead, He gave His life for ours.

Romans 5:8 NIV But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Here are some quotations to cement the point that violence is not the answer.

"...for government and its objects -- peace and order -- Love is better and mightier than Force."
-- Lew Wallace [Ben-Hur]

"Must one kill to destroy evildoers?

"That is making two evildoers in the place of one. Overcome evil with good."
-- Blaise Pascal [Pensees]

"'Why are you killing me for your own benefit? I am unarmed.' 'Why, do you not live on the other side of the water? My friend, if you lived on this side, I should be a murderer, but since you live on the other side, I am a brave man, and it is right.'"
-- Blaise Pascal [Pensees]

 

[TSIBHOD]

Continuing from the last post, here are some quotations that show how Christians have lived this out.

"I knew of an old Japanese woman who was disturbed by a thief who had broken into her house. In her simple but practical faith in the Lord, she cooked the man a meal -- then handed him her keys. He was shamed by her action and God spoke to him. Through her testimony, that man is a brother in Christ today."
-- Watchman Nee [Sit, Walk, Stand]

[Some people in Communist prisons in China became Christians.]
"When the Communist officials found out what had happened, they were furious. They had lost control over their prisoners. They could yell at them, beat them, and they would only say, 'We forgive you in the name of Jesus.'"
-- Carl Lawrence [The Church in China]

"On the journey, a sister was pushed out of the car. She suffered brain injuries and was in a coma. In the prison of Fang Cheng, this nineteen-year-old Christian sister was released from prison because of physical frailty. She was not happy and cried because her suffering was less than the rest. Her beating was less severe than the others. But in actual fact, she was injured very much."
-- Carl Lawrence [The Church in China]

"I have seen Christians in Communists prisons with fifty pounds of chains on their feet, tortured with red-hot iron pokers, in whose throats spoonfuls of salt had been forced, being kept afterward without water, starving, whipped, suffering from cold -- and praying with fervor for the Communists. This is humanly inexplicable! It is the love of Christ, which was poured out in our hearts."
-- Richard Wurmbrand [Tortured for Christ]

Although it may seem impossible, it is what we are called to.

"God never asks us to do anything we can do. He asks us to live a life which we can never live, and to do a work which we can never do. Yet by His grace, we are living it and doing it. The life we live is the life of Christ lived in the power of God, and the work we do is the work of Christ carried on through us by His Spirit whom we obey."
-- Watchman Nee [Sit, Walk, Stand]

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Hi, I have a friend that goes to the SDA church. He told me he would never fight on a battlefield because he said Jesus said to love your enemys and not to kill your enemys. He said the only people that fight for life is the people that believe there is no God. If your saved you have no fear of death. Jesus did say not to kill your enemys and to love your enemys as yourself. When Jesus came the old testamant was replaced by the new testament which speaks against killing or does it?

Robert.

romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the highest powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power , resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall recieve to themselves judgement. 3 For rulers are a terror to good works, but to the evil.......

 

[12volt_man]

In other words, you would rather have a bad man's blood on your hands than have a good man's blood on a bad man's hands.

Absolutely. I would rather protect the life and liberty of those who treasure it than protect the life of those who would destroy it.

Just remember, as bad as any "bad guy" or terrorist looks to you, you look worse to God without the blood of Jesus. Yet, Jesus did not kill us for being sinners. Instead, He gave His life for ours.

Nor do we kill anyone for being a sinner.

Here are some quotations to cement the point that violence is not the answer.

"...for government and its objects -- peace and order -- Love is better and mightier than Force."
-- Lew Wallace [Ben-Hur]

But what is loving? Is it loving to turn a blind eye to tyranny and oppression?

"Must one kill to destroy evildoers?

"That is making two evildoers in the place of one. Overcome evil with good."
-- Blaise Pascal [Pensees]

This is assuming that destroying evildoers is, in itself, evil and neither you nor Pascal have demonstrated this.

"'Why are you killing me for your own benefit? I am unarmed.' 'Why, do you not live on the other side of the water? My friend, if you lived on this side, I should be a murderer, but since you live on the other side, I am a brave man, and it is right.'"
-- Blaise Pascal [Pensees]

We're not talking about killing unarmed individuals so this quote is moot.

 

[wonder111]

what did Jesus mean when he said 'those who live by the sword, die by the sword'?

 

[12volt_man]

what did Jesus mean when he said 'those who live by the sword, die by the sword'?

He meant, "Hey, Peter, there are twenty of them and one of you. Put that thing away before you get yourself killed."

I think a better question would be, what did Jesus mean when He told His disciples to go out and buy swords?

Another good question is what does the Bible mean when it tells us that God has ordained the government with the authority to weild the sword to punish evildoers?

 

[wonder111]

he didn't say Peter, he said 'those'

 

[wonder111]

and the teachings of Christ are directly opposed to it as well

…love your enemies…do good to them that hate you…and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you" (Matt. 5: 44)


and with John the Baptist Luke 3:14

14* And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

 

[hraedisc]

12volt_man, I reject your rebuttal.
Christians are not to take life in the name of a secular nation, nor even for their own God. OT laws in reference to the nation of Israel have no validity. America is not a theocracy, and neither is any other country. When "Christians" killed "Christians" in previous wars, such as WWI and WWII, was the Spirit of God leading them as individuals to do that?




Christian Patriotism, A Book By Alonzo T Jones
http://www.hiscovenantministries.org/scripture/christian_patriotism.htm

(It's better than the rest of this thread!)

 

[12volt_man]

he didn't say Peter, he said 'those'

Yes, he was making a point to Peter in order to convince him to put his sword away, lest he be massacred by the overwhelming forces.

 

[12volt_man]

and the teachings of Christ are directly opposed to it as well

…love your enemies…do good to them that hate you…and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you" (Matt. 5: 44)

Yes, I've addressed this already.

and with John the Baptist Luke 3:14
And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

Did you know that the word translated as "violence" here is diaseio, which means, literally, "to extort from one by intimidation money or other property"? In fact, the NIV renders the verse this way: "Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely -be content with your pay".

I agree that we shouldn't extort money or other property by intimidation but I don't see how this condemns soldiering.