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What exactly is the Great tribulation?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by claninja, Aug 12, 2022.

What exactly is the great tribulation?

  1. Wrath on God’s enemies

    2 vote(s)
    20.0%
  2. Persecution of God’s people

    5 vote(s)
    50.0%
  3. Other, please explain

    3 vote(s)
    30.0%
  1. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    What exactly is the great tribulation?
     
  2. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    The great tribulation is a time near the very end whereas the world will pretty much be in total chaos .... (like in the days of Noah) .... and Jesus will return and take the saved to heaven.

    All will go through it ... but will be cut short .... for the sake of the elect (those saved)

    Matthew 24:21-22

    21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.
     
  3. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Luke 17:
    26 And as it was in the days of Noah
    , so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

    Is this the Great Tribulation?
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2022
  4. rwb

    rwb Well-Known Member

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    However one defines it, it is something that affects disciples from the first century AD to
    disciples in the last days of this age/nation/generation/time.
     
  5. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It is a time of consolidation of power by an unrighteous
    remnant, whatever 7 heads 10 horns 10 crowns represent.
    Within that time frame there will be heavy persecution of
    those who worship the Lamb.


    Revelation 7:
    9
    After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
    10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!
    13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
    14 And I said to him, Sir, you know.
    So he said to me, These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
     
  6. Jesse Dornfeld

    Jesse Dornfeld Slave to Christ Supporter

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    A little from column A and a little from column B, meaning, it is both God's wrath and growing persecution towards those in Christ. I am undecided on the Millennial Reign, but I think even if you take the Post-Millenial Reign interpretation you can allow for more persecution even when Christianity continues to spread. Nigeria is a good example of this. In that country, Christianity is the dominant religion there, but it ranks as the #7 most dangerous place to be a Christian in the world.
     
  7. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    Tribulation is always used to mean religious persecution. It is never used in terms of the wrath of God.

    Making that mistake is part of why we have debate over rapture timing as it is.
    Because biblically, we're not appointed to God's wrath, which is where Pretrib get their position.
    But biblically, Jesus comes after the tribulation, which is where Post trib get their position.

    Because they have equated tribulation = God's wrath, they have sown confusion in their own minds, and within the body of Christ.

    Consider that in the Olivet Discourse, Jesus doesn't list anything like the trumpets or bowls among the signs of His return, He only includes events up to the 6th seal (in the same order I might add), why?
    I propose that it is because He returns before the trumpets or bowls. 100 pound hailstones aren't a sign of His return if He already returned and is pouring out wrath on the ungodly after His return.

    Now.. before reading this, eliminate the term "flash foward" from your minds, and consider the positions I can show in Revelation.

    Revelation 6
    up to the 5th seal, it cannot be the wrath of God, because the martyrs are asking how long it will be until He judges. That means He hasn't judged yet. They are not rebuked with "well ever since seal 1 God has been judging the world" They're told to wait, because the judgement is still in the future.
    Continuing
    This is not "the day of His wrath has been happening" This is "is come" meaning it's here now, it wasn't before. These are also the same signs Jesus talked about in Matthew 24:29-30. Jesus said this would happen after the tribulation of those days. So whatever the tribulation of those days meant, not to you, not to your pastor, not to the crazy televangelist on TV, but what tribulation meant to Jesus, it is over by this time. This is the end of it. I'd argue it's how it gets cut short as Jesus promises it will be for the elect's sake. (Matthew 24:22)
    Now remember what Jesus promises in Matthew 24:31
    What should we expect to see in Revelation 7? The elect gathered.

    Let's look at Revelation 7 and just throw "flash forward" into the rubbish bin where it belongs. Understand that this matches what Jesus said would happen, and stop injecting your own definitions and timings. Use Jesus' timing and definitions.

    Revelation 7
    God's wrath is not allowed to be delivered, until 144,000 of God's servants, from the tribes of Israel, have been sealed. But what about the rest of us, the Gentile believers who are not of the tribes of Israel? Well...
    The saints are in heaven, as you'd expect because of Matthew 24:31, and they have come out of great tribulation, before any trumpets or bowls. So whatever "great tribulation" means, it is over with by this point. It's in the past by this point. Anything going forward is not great tribulation. It is wrath.

    As a bonus, I throw in Isaiah 26, which shows this same pattern, of a time of tribulation and suffering, followed by the resurrection, and then the indignation/wrath of God follows.
    This refers to great tribulation
    This refers to the first resurrection, which happens after this great tribulation, but..
    But before the wrath of God, and we're invited to take refuge where Isaiah is going, in chambers, with doors. Remember what Jesus said in John 14:1-3.
    another bonus, this describes the 2nd and 3rd vials, where God makes the water into blood, to give the wicked blood to drink in recompense for the blood of the saints that they have spilled.

    In closing, the wrath of God is not great tribulation. The wrath of God is recompense FOR great tribulation. It's God avenging the saints that were persecuted and martyred.

    2 Thessalonians 1
    Isaiah 34
    The day of the Lord is an act of vengeance for what happens during the 70th week, with the abomination of Desolation, and the persecution of Israel and the saints.

    God is just. He does not bring His wrath against the world for things it has not done yet. Until the world has done something so grievous as the abomination of desolation, elevating a man to claim to be God and be worshipped, and until the world has persecuted His people to the extent of the great tribulation, God does not judge the world and pour His wrath on it.
     
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  8. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    The parallel passage in luke, calls the great tribulation, the great distress, wrath on this people, and days of vengeance.

    Matthew 24:15-21 15So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’adescribed by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18And let no one in the field return for his cloak.19How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.

    Luke 21:20-23 20But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city. 22For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.23How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath against this people.

    Christ warns to flee this great distress/tribulation and indicates one should pray to be worthy to escape it.

    Luke 21:36 36So keep watch at all times, and pray that you may have the strength to escape all that is about to happen and to stand before the Son of Man.


    Mark 13:14-19
    14So when you see the abomination of desolationa standing where it should not beb (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15Let no one on the housetop go back inside to retrieve anything from his house. 16And let no one in the field return for his cloak.17How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 18Pray that this will not occur in the winter. 19For those will be days of tribulation unmatched from the beginning of God’s creation until now, and never to be seen again.
     
  9. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    i would say so, notice the warning to not return for one’s possessions in luke 17, is the exact same warning to flee the great tribulation in Mark 13

    mark 13:14-19
    14So when you see the abomination of desolationa standing where it should not beb (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15Let no one on the housetop go back inside to retrieve anything from his house. 16And let no one in the field return for his cloak.17How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 18Pray that this will not occur in the winter. 19For those will be days of tribulation

    Luke 17:26-31
    26Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man: 27People were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.28It was the same in the days of Lot: People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.30It will be just like that on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31On that day, let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve his possessions. Likewise, let no one in the field return for anything he has left behind.

     
  10. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    i would say the people of God come out of the great tribulation in the same way they come out of the harlot, as to not be destroyed by the wrath of God.

    revelation 18:4-5
    4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

    “Come out of her, My people,d

    so that you will not share in her sins

    or contract any of her plagues.5For her sins are piled up to heaven,

    and God has remembered her iniquities.

     
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  11. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    not in Luke’s OD. There, the great distress is described “days of vengeance” and “wrath on this people”.
     
  12. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Tribulation great or otherwise is suffered by humanity. Israel suffered tribulation all through the centuries because God allowed it, then they in turn they persecuted Christian Jews, then they suffered tribulation during the last war in Jerusalem in 70 Ad. Then the Christians suffered again under the RCC, it goes on and on. It does not matter when, it matters who and why. There are different reasons.
    Those who are the Disciples of Jesus Christ of Nazareth will suffer persecution aka tribulation for His Namesake until the end.
    Blessings.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2022
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  13. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    no doubt, Christians go through tribulation. But I’m specifically talking about the great tribulation, in which Jesus warns the disciples to flee Judea, and is called the “days of vengeance “ and “wrath on this people”.

    I don’t think Christians were warned to flee judea for the RCC persecution (or any other persecution) nor are Christians destined to partake in God’s “wrath on this people” nor “days of vengeance”.
     
  14. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well this
    This is 70AD. Not a Christian event but a Jewish rejection of their Messiah event.
     
  15. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    I definitely think there is a difference between Christians facing tribulation and Christ warning the disciples to flee Judea due to the unmatched great tribulation, which Luke defines as The “days of vengeance” and God’s “wrath on this people”.
     
  16. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    I guess I’m confused by your position. Does the “unmatched” great tribulation, of the olivet discourse, refer to Christian persecution or God’s wrath on his enemies (in your case, apostate Israel)?
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2022
  17. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We can pinpoint may events in history where tribulation has occurred for humanity. The Olivet discourse, IMHO, is pointing to 70AD. That being said, we know there is also tribulation for His Namesake.
     
  18. ByTheSpirit

    ByTheSpirit Pray always!!

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    Revelation 16:15 (ESV): (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”)

    This is literally right before the seveth and final trumpet is blown. The last trumpet. Notice Jesus says in Matthew 24:29-31 that he returns with a trumpet blast, and Paul affirms this in 1 Thessalonians 4. A trumpet blast signals Christ’s return to the earth. But back to Revelation 16:15 that I quoted.

    It says, “I am coming like a thief” that is future tense. Jesus hasn’t returned yet. He even uses the same terminology that Paul uses in 1 Thessalonians 5 to describe His return, like a thief.

    There is no way to reconcile this with other scriptures like Matthew 24, 1 Thessalonians 4 & 5 than Jesus does not return until the end of the Tribulation at the sounding of the last Trumpet, just like He says in Matthew 24:29-31, “Immediately after the Tribulation… He will send out His angels with a trumpet call.”

    Now as the OP asks, what is the Great Tribulation. No option for both the choices so I cannot select. It is both a pouring out of God’s wrath and a time of great persecution for the Church. Although I’d present that the wrath of God that is experienced in the Tribulation is wholly different from the wrath of God that the lost experience in hell. I view wrath in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 as eternal wrath of hell, not the temporary wrath judgements of the Great Tribulation. For in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 Paul is comparing and contrasting salvation with wrath. Salvation is eternal life, what’s the opposite of eternal life? Eternal punishment. So “God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through Jesus” is saying that we have eternal life in Jesus, no need to worry about hell.
     
  19. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    the 7th trumpet judgement is not what Paul was referring to.

    Zechariah 9
    Paul would not communicate to the Corinthians something they'd need to wait decades to have explained by John in Revelation.
    Paul taught from the Old Testament.
    Paul used Zechariah, and he had knowledge of what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse, and he was able to find what Jesus was talking about in the Old Testament.

    Meanwhile the 7th trumpet judgement is not blown by Jesus, but by an angel.

    Similarly, Revelation 14
    First notice that the first reaping is done by Jesus, the second by an angel.
    Second notice that the first reaping it doesn't say they are put into the winepress of the wrath of God, the second reaping done by an angel, they are put through the wrath of God.

    Jesus reaps those who are His and gathers them to Him.
    the Angel reaps the clusters of those who belong to the world, and pours the wrath of God on them.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2022
  20. Ivan Hlavanda

    Ivan Hlavanda Well-Known Member

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    70th week of Daniel, also known as 7 years of tribulation (which is split in 2 parts) or Jacob's trouble. The 7 years will start with the reign of the Antichrist (John 5:43 'I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him.) , with whom Israel will sign a (false) peace treaty. Isaiah 28:15 Because you have said, “We have made a covenant with death, and with Sheol we have an agreement, when the overwhelming whip passes through it will not come to us, for we have made lies our refuge, and in falsehood we have taken shelter”. Meanwhile, all the Christians will be heavily persecuted during this time, while Israel will enjoy false peace. This is the first 3.5 years.

    Then, after the 3.5 years, once the antichrist is finished with all the Christians (I believe he will kill them all) he will sit in Jerusalem's temple (now rebuilt) and proclaim himself God (Jesus speaks about this is Matthew 24:15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place) God will give sight to Israel and they will finally see that this is not the Messiah but the antichrist and they will kick the antichrist out of the temple. He will get angry and now persecute all the Jews. He will kill two thirds, one third will survive because they are God's elect and He will save them (Zechariah 13:8 'In the whole land, declares the Lord, two thirds shall be cut off and perish, and one third shall be left alive.) But that one third who survive will go through terrible persecution. Zechariah 13:9 'And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people’; and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’” Also, during this second 3.5 years, God will pour His (7 bowls) wrath on the inhabitants of the Earth

    This remnant is the ones who repent they have killed Messiah, Zechariah 12:10 '“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn'

    Then at the end of this, Jesus comes back and destroys the Antichrist. And He will establish the Millennium Kingdom here on Earth.

    I also strongly believe in the pre-tribulation rapture, i.e. the Church of Jesus will be raptured before of this, and all the false Christians will be left behind and persecuted. In this persecution (some or all) left behind Christians will repent, accept Christ as their Saviour, reject the mark of the Beast, and they will be killed.

    A lot more can be written about this, but I just wanted to give a brief summary. If you want to learn more, the book of revelation chapters 4-19 describe this 7 year period. John Macarthur does a fantastic summary on this.

    About the Antichrist....
    (Daniel 11) 21 In his place shall arise a contemptible person to whom royal majesty has not been given. He shall come in without warning and obtain the kingdom by flatteries. 22 Armies shall be utterly swept away before him and broken, even the prince of the covenant. 23 And from the time that an alliance is made with him he shall act deceitfully, and he shall become strong with a small people. 24 Without warning he shall come into the richest parts of the province, and he shall do what neither his fathers nor his fathers' fathers have done, scattering among them plunder, spoil, and goods. He shall devise plans against strongholds, but only for a time.

    (Daniel 9) 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

    (Daniel 8) a king of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise. 24 His power shall be great—but not by his own power; and he shall cause fearful destruction and shall succeed in what he does, and destroy mighty men and the people who are the saints. 25 By his cunning he shall make deceit prosper under his hand, and in his own mind he shall become great. Without warning he shall destroy many. And he shall even rise up against the Prince of princes, and he shall be broken—but by no human hand.

    (2 Thes. 2) the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2022
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