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What exactly is the Great tribulation?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by claninja, Aug 12, 2022.

What exactly is the great tribulation?

  1. Wrath on God’s enemies

    2 vote(s)
    20.0%
  2. Persecution of God’s people

    5 vote(s)
    50.0%
  3. Other, please explain

    3 vote(s)
    30.0%
  1. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    right, Jesus said there would be persecution.

    Matthew 24:16 9Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.10At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, 11and many false prophets will arise and mislead many.


    But does the great tribulation, where Jesus warns the disciples to flee judea to the mountains, involve God’s wrath or Christian persecution?
     
  2. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    where does scripture say the Great tribulation is persecution on God’s people?
     
  3. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    This doesn’t really make sense considering the warning is to flee Judea to the mountains in order to escape. Christians throughout all generations have not needed to flee to Judea.
     
  4. rwb

    rwb Well-Known Member

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    Claninja, who is God speaking to when He warns them of "great wrath" that would come to them?

    Some say He is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD. But can that really be defined as "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." I would argue no it cannot. Not only would 70 AD not be the first time for utter destruction of Jerusalem, but neither is Jerusalem the only city ever to have experienced utter destruction from their enemies. This is why I don't believe Christ is telling His disciples of the utter destruction that would come not to believers, "them" but instead to the unbelieving Jewish nation.

    In my opinion the only way we can understand when "great tribulation" will come to the disciples of Christ is to understand Christ is speaking to His believing disciples warning them that THEY and all who follow them must endure this "great tribulation" that will come as the Kingdom of heaven is being built as the Gospel is taken until all the earth in the power of His Spirit. Great tribulation, though bringing martyrdom and much physical suffering in this world to many saints of Christ, should primarily be understood not as physical warfare, but as spiritual warfare between the forces of good and the forces of evil throughout the Gospel age until Christ comes again in total victory.
     
  5. rwb

    rwb Well-Known Member

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    Why would Christ warn His disciples to flee Judea? Would the Gospel go unto all the earth in the power of the Spirit if those appointed to go out with the Gospel are all killed?
     
  6. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In this particular case it is God's judgment against the unrepentant Jews. The abomination that has left them desolate, the end of Temple Judaism.
     
  7. rwb

    rwb Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 24:14 (KJV) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    We must remember what Christ says before warning of "great tribulation" that would most assuredly come to His disciples. The cause for "great tribulation" coming is preaching the Gospel of the kingdom unto all the nations to be a witness unto the power and authority of Christ. All the spiritual forces of evil known from above will be unleased to try and prevent Christ, through His disciples from building the Kingdom of heaven through His Word and Spirit. And that will bring "great tribulation" to every faithful saint throughout the Gospel age.
     
  8. rwb

    rwb Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Christ tells His disciples Jerusalem and the Temple will be utterly destroyed so the disciples would not be discouraged and began to think all is lost when it literally happens. The Gospel of the Kingdom would no longer be only for one nation but would then accomplish salvation for all the nations of the world. As long as Jerusalem and the Temple remain there would always be confusion for these first century Christian Jews who were at that time still clinging to the Levitical Law, but also desired to cling to the New Covenant through Christ.
     
  9. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Cont...In full disclosure, I am a partial Preterist and not a Dispensational futurist. This makes a huge difference on how I interpret eschatology.
    Blessings.
     
  10. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    assuming the olivet discourse, Jesus is speaking to the disciples.


    let’s assume it’s not about 70ad, but a future to us “unmatched” great tribulation, for which Jesus also calls it the days of vengeance, and wrath on this people, and even warns to flee judea to the mountains, and pray one is counted worthy to escape.


    why would it be considered Christian persecution and not Gods wrath?



    This makes no sense considering Jesus’ warning to flee Judea and pray you are worthy to escape these things.



     
  11. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    to escape the great tribulation, also known in Luke as the great distress, days of vengeance, and wrath on this people.
     
  12. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    absolutely agreed. In the particular case of the olivet discourse, the great tribulation or great distress, is God’s wrath and the days of vengeance on apostate Israel. That’s why I voted for “God’s wrath” and not “persecution of God’s people”.
     
  13. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    The great tribulation is a reference to “those days” of the desolation of the temple and city.
     
  14. rwb

    rwb Well-Known Member

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    Exactly! He is speaking to Jewish Christians about "great tribulation" that would come to THEM as they preach the Gospel unto all the nations.

    Christ is not warning "great tribulation" would come upon first century Jewish Christians through the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. He tells THEM of the destruction so they would escape the judgment God is bringing upon the nation. Much like warnings we read of other believers throughout Scripture, such as Noah, Lot, Jonah and others. In 70 AD God using the Roman Army poured out His wrath upon His disobedient people in the same way He had in the past, and if the disciples had not been warned of what was to come would they have left Jerusalem with the Gospel as Christ instructs before His departure to heaven?

    The first century disciples of Christ lived in a very confusing time for them. Both the Old Covenant and the New existed together before the total destruction in 70 AD. It would have been easy for His disciples before having the Spirit in them to remain faithful to Christ. Consider Christ's disciple, Judas Iscariot. Because the Jews were expecting the promised Messiah would come and build again the Kingdom as it was under King David. They expected a mighty warrior King, and did not yet understand how Christ, as a suffering servant was indeed the One they looked for. Even John-the Baptist wondered if Christ was truly the promised Messiah ordained by the Prophets.

    People of faith pray that Christ would sustain them through every trial and tribulation, so just as Christ knowing Satan desired to sift Peter as wheat (Lu 22:31-32) said "But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." Prayer is proof of faith in one greater than our circumstances, and what keeps us looking up rather than being overwhelmed by evil and fall from faith.

    Luke 21:34-36 (KJV) And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    Though Christ warned the first century disciples of what would happen when Jerusalem was surrounded by the Roman Army and why they must flee the city, Christ does not limit the warning of "great tribulation" to them. If He were speaking of "great tribulation" as the destruction in 70 AD why say these times would be a snare on ALL them that dwell on the face of the whole earth?

    Luke's focus seems more toward the destruction then "great tribulation" that shall be like nothing ever before and will never be again. That's why he says, "For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Vengeance is defined as punishment or retribution, but not "great tribulation" Matthew writes of.
     
  15. rwb

    rwb Well-Known Member

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    Then why does Luke write "For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled"? (See Isa. 65:11-12) The siege and utter destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple is NOT "great tribulation" that comes upon faithful disciples of Christ during the whole Gospel age. It is the days of vengeance God promised He would bring upon His nation when they turn away from Him and become abominable in His sight.
     
  16. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    no ... but it will be like it ... God looked down and saw that the heart of man was continuously wicked/evil ...

    Genesis 6:5
    English Standard Version
    The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

    and sent the flood and swept them (all the wicked) away ...

    Matthew 24

    38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. 39 And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man

    At the return of Jesus .... same thing .... only the wicked will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming ...

    Revelation 18:8-10

    Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her…

    2 Thessalonians 2:8

    Berean Literal Bible
    And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will consume with the breath of His mouth and will annul by the appearing of His coming,
     
  17. BrotherJJ

    BrotherJJ Well-Known Member

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    Matt 24:21 Jesus said; For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    Daniel's 70th week = 7 years

    Dan 9:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High and shall wear out the saints of the most High and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
    (MY NOTE: time=1 year, times=2 years, half a time=1/2-year, total of 3 1/2 years)

    Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
    (MY NOTE: These last 3 1/2 years = The time Jacobs trouble = Israels trouble. After Jacob wrestles with the Lord Gen 32:24-30. The Lord changes Jacobs name to Israel.

    Rev 12:5-6 it says that the dragon made war against the woman Israel for 1,260 days; that’s also three and a half years
    (MY NOTE: The Dragon makes war with Israel!)
     
  18. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    Yes .... it's going to be a very difficult time ... however ... He will cut it short for the sake of the elect (His people)

    Matthew 24:22

    21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.
     
  19. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    claninja, Luke 21 (Matthew 24, Mark 13 as well) addressed (1) near term events, (2) long term events, (3) end times events.

    The great tribulation was not in the 70 ad event because the great tribulation affects everyone in the entire world.

    Here are three tables I made, each one for Luke, Matthew, Mark.

    The tables identify (group) the verses into the three ages of events.

    (1) near term events, like 70 ad.

    (2) Long term (2000 years) events, like the times of the gentiles.

    (3) End times events, like the 7 year, 70th week which includes the great tribulation.

    Open your bible to Luke 21, for example. And then using my table for Luke 21, compare the text to the verses in the table. It will all make sense then.

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    Last edited: Aug 13, 2022
  20. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    The great tribulation is the days of vengeance, great distress, and wrath of God “on this people”. It is never defined as the persecution of Christians.
     
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