What exactly is the Great tribulation?

[claninja]

Only the harlot and her followers in the religion of Babylon the Great will endure the wrath of God. Most of 'the tribulation's' afflictions are caused by the wrath of demons associated with the harlot and the 'beasts'. However...

In the following passage we are told to suffer tribulation up to the time when Christ shall come to be glorified in His saints.

"That no man should be moved by these afflictions; for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

I agree the harlot faces the wrath of God, but certainly not during great tribulation though, but after great tribulation.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

We already know from Revelation 19, this.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


These verses couldn't possibly be meaning during great tribulation. These verses couldn't possibly be meaning during the time of the following, either.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


This 42 months the beast is given to continue, this is meaning great tribulation which is also involving the following---until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled(Revelation 6:11). That is during the 5th seal, but it is not until the 6th seal that God's wrath is involved.

And Matthew 24:29 clearly places the time of the 6th seal after the time of Matthew 24:15-21, which logically means that the time of the 5th seal---until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled(Revelation 6:11)---this is meaning during the time of great tribulation, which also proves that Matthew 24:15-21 is not involving God's wrath if that doesn't begin until the 6th seal.

None of these passages I brought up give the impression any of these things are involving Jerusalem and the 2nd temple in the first century.

Good thing we have scripture to interpret scripture!

In revelation, The harlot/Babylon great is charged with “all the righteous blood shed”.

Revelation 19:24 24And there was found in her the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who had been slain on the earth.

revelation 17:6 6I could see that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints and witnesses for Jesus.

So, how in the world should we understand the identity harlot of Babylon, who is specifically charged with “all of the righteous blood shed”?

well thank goodness for the NT scriptures, where Christ describes apostate Israel in the same way, so that we can understand who revelation is talking about:

Matthew 23:35 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

luke 11:50-51 As a result, this generation will be charged with the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the foundation of the world, 51from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary.hYes, I tell you, all of it will be charged to this generation.

@DavidPT so you wouldnt describe what the harlot of Babylon goes through, when she goes through 7 bowls (revelation 16) and is devoured and burned by the beast (revelation 17) and is judged (revelation 18,19), as great tribulation?

 

[DavidPT]

@DavidPT so you wouldnt describe what the harlot of Babylon goes through, when she goes through 7 bowls (revelation 16) and is devoured and burned by the beast (revelation 17) and is judged (revelation 18,19), as great tribulation?

Maybe you are using block logic for all I know, I'm not. I'm using step logic in this case. And the vials of wrath couldn't possibly be being poured out during the time of great tribulation if it is not until the 6th seal that God's wrath commences. Matthew 24:29 already undeniably proves that the 6th seal events are after great tribulation.

 

[claninja]

Maybe you are using block logic for all I know, I'm not. I'm using step logic in this case. And the vials of wrath couldn't possibly be being poured out during the time of great tribulation if it is not until the 6th seal that God's wrath commences. Matthew 24:29 already undeniably proves that the 6th seal events are after great tribulation.

So the mountains and islands flee and/or are removed out of their place twice?

In revelation 16, the wrath of God is poured out on Babylon, for all the righteous blood shed and avenging the martyred saints, prior to the mountains and islands fleeing.

Revelation 16:19-20
19The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. And God remembered Babylon the great and gave her the cup of the wine of the fury of His wrath.20Then every island fled, and no mountain could be found.

In revelation 6 the day of Gods wrath to avenge the martyred saints happens after the mountains and islands flee.

Revelation 6:14-16
14The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.15Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains.16And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usb from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17For the great day of Theirc wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

seems like the ancient near eastern people, like John, were less interested in displaying things in chronological order.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

So the mountains and islands flee and/or are removed out of their place twice?

Of course. They will be put back in place after it happens the first time and then at some point it will happen again.

In revelation 16, the wrath of God is poured out on Babylon, for all the righteous blood shed and avenging the martyred saints, prior to the mountains and islands fleeing.

Revelation 16:19-20
19The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. And God remembered Babylon the great and gave her the cup of the wine of the fury of His wrath.20Then every island fled, and no mountain could be found.

In revelation 6 the day of Gods wrath to avenge the martyred saints happens after the mountains and islands flee.

Revelation 6:14-16
14The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.15Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains.16And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usb from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17For the great day of Theirc wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

seems like the ancient near eastern people, like John, were less interested in displaying things in chronological order.

Even though I disagree with your preterist interpretation of the book of Revelation, I do agree with you here that we should recognize that there are parallel passages within the book of Revelation such as in this case with Revelation 16:19-20 and Revelation 6:14-16. To interpret all or most of it in chronological order leads to all kinds of false conclusions. I believe it's not possible to make any sense of the book without recognizing parallels like these.

 

[DavidPT]

So the mountains and islands flee and/or are removed out of their place twice?

In revelation 16, the wrath of God is poured out on Babylon, for all the righteous blood shed and avenging the martyred saints, prior to the mountains and islands fleeing.

Revelation 16:19-20
19The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. And God remembered Babylon the great and gave her the cup of the wine of the fury of His wrath.20Then every island fled, and no mountain could be found.

In revelation 6 the day of Gods wrath to avenge the martyred saints happens after the mountains and islands flee.

Revelation 6:14-16
14The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.15Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains.16And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usb from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17For the great day of Theirc wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

seems like the ancient near eastern people, like John, were less interested in displaying things in chronological order.

What you are submitting are basically parallel events not something that happens two different times. As to what you brought up in Revelation 6:14-16 which in turn involves what you brought up in Revelation 16, once again Matthew 24:29 places those events after great tribulation, exactly what I have been arguing.

My view is, great tribulation recorded in Matthew 24, which BTW is not also recorded in Luke 21, and the wrath of God are not involving the same events. The wrath of God is involving the last 7 vials of wrath and are meaning after great tribulation.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Regardless that the book of Revelation is not chronological throughout, thus some parallels from different angles from time to time, we still have Matthew 24 which aids us in sorting out some of this chronology. And where does Matthew 24 place the sun being darkened, and the stars of heaven falling to the earth?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Matthew 24 places it after the trib of those days, obviously, thus undeniably meaning immediately after that of Matthew 24:15-21. It also places Revelation 6:12-17 prior to the sign of the Son of man in heaven, followed by His coming, which also involves the gathering of His elect. And like I already pointed out, if according to Matthew 24:29, the 6th seal is meaning after great tribulation, this is telling us that the 5th seal is meaning during the time of great tribulation, because the events pertaining to the 5th seal obviously precede the events pertaining to the 6th seal since the number 5 always precedes the number 6.

 

[Muckah]

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[Daniel Martinovich]

What exactly is the great tribulation?

Well first of all there are lots of great tribulations in the Bible. The two everyone likes to cite is the wsr in Judea and the destruction of Jerusalem. That is what Jesus is prophesying about in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. The other one cited often is the great tribulation of the saints at the hand of the Roman Empire that follows the war in Judea.

 

[claninja]

What you are submitting are basically parallel events not something that happens two different times. As to what you brought up in Revelation 6:14-16 which in turn involves what you brought up in Revelation 16, once again Matthew 24:29 places those events after great tribulation, exactly what I have been arguing.

My view is, great tribulation recorded in Matthew 24, which BTW is not also recorded in Luke 21, and the wrath of God are not involving the same events. The wrath of God is involving the last 7 vials of wrath and are meaning after great tribulation.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Regardless that the book of Revelation is not chronological throughout, thus some parallels from different angles from time to time, we still have Matthew 24 which aids us in sorting out some of this chronology. And where does Matthew 24 place the sun being darkened, and the stars of heaven falling to the earth?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Matthew 24 places it after the trib of those days, obviously, thus undeniably meaning immediately after that of Matthew 24:15-21. It also places Revelation 6:12-17 prior to the sign of the Son of man in heaven, followed by His coming, which also involves the gathering of His elect. And like I already pointed out, if according to Matthew 24:29, the 6th seal is meaning after great tribulation, this is telling us that the 5th seal is meaning during the time of great tribulation, because the events pertaining to the 5th seal obviously precede the events pertaining to the 6th seal since the number 5 always precedes the number 6.

I absolutely agree they are parallel events.

it seems to me that if revelation 16 has the bowls of wrath and judgement of the harlot as occuring BEFORE/ DURING the “fleeing of the mountains and islands”, then that would line up Matthew 24:29 and the great tribulation occurring immediately BEFORE the passing away of the earth, no?

Would this mean that the event of the of the 7 bowls of wrath in revelation 16 is different than the “day of wrath” from revelation 6?

 

[claninja]

Well first of all there are lots of great tribulations in the Bible. The two everyone likes to cite is the wsr in Judea and the destruction of Jerusalem. That is what Jesus is prophesying about in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. The other one cited often is the great tribulation of the saints at the hand of the Roman Empire that follows the war in Judea.

i would agree the great tribulation of Matthew 24 refers to the destruction of Jerusalem. In the same way as @Spiritual Jew nicely put it, I would agree all Christians will through tribulation and even “great” tribulation, but “the” great tribulation of the olivet discourse refers to the destruction of Jerusalem.

 

[Muckah]

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[claninja]

If you're referring to AD70 I would disagree with that because Jesus said, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Many wars were worse than what took place in Jerusalem in AD 70. There's NO WAY Jesus could be referring to AD 70 IF that is in fact what you're referring to.

Your are free to disagree. The point of the OP is to determine what the great tribulation is, not when.

whether the great tribulation of Matthew 24 refers to a past or future event, is not what I’m interested in. I’m interested in what is it: the destruction of Jerusalem (whether past or future) or some other event?

 

[Muckah]

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[claninja]

What the tribulation IS - is very dependent upon WHEN the tribulation IS. A destruction in a 70AD context would be way different than destruction in today's world.

The great tribulation is way more than the destruction of Jerusalem. The questions asked by the disciples show Mathew 24 has more to do with the signs of Jesus' return and the end of the age than the temple.

that would be a false logical equivalence.


Anyways….So what does scripture say the great tribulation “is”?