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What exactly is the Great tribulation?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by claninja, Aug 12, 2022.

What exactly is the great tribulation?

  1. Wrath on God’s enemies

    2 vote(s)
    20.0%
  2. Persecution of God’s people

    5 vote(s)
    50.0%
  3. Other, please explain

    3 vote(s)
    30.0%
  1. rwb

    rwb Well-Known Member

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    That doesn't make sense? Why would Christ warn His disciples the "great tribulation" would result from "gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" if this tribulation never affects them? You are confusing the "days of vengeance" toward the apostate people of Jerusalem with "great tribulation" as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the world.

    The "days of vengeance" is when Jerusalem is compassed with armies. That is the focus of Luke. But "great tribulation" according to Matthew will come as the Gospel is preached unto all the nations. Just as Luke makes no mention of the preaching of the Gospel to all nations, neither does Matthew mention the armies surrounding Jerusalem. That's because the focus is not the same for these two disciples of Christ.

    Luke 21:20-22 (KJV) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

    Vengeance and tribulation are two different words for a reason. Vengeance is retribution and punishment for a nation wholly committed to apostasy, and therefore had become an abomination unto the Lord. But great tribulation is affliction, anguish, trouble the disciples of Christ will endure as they preach the Gospel unto all the nations. The days of vengeance is that which was fulfilled when Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed. But great tribulation will not end until the Gospel is no longer being preached unto all nations.

    Matthew, though focusing on what they will endure as the Gospel is preached also seems to indicate some of what Luke does regarding the judgment of God coming against the apostate nation. It is not surprising that there is a blending of the two for Matthew. This was a very confusing time for the Jewish Christians. We have to remember how hard it must have been for them to hear the Holy City and the Temple would not endure forever. Until the Spirit was sent to indwell them how could they really understand all that Christ was telling them. Only after receiving the Holy Spirit would they be able to understand and remember all that Christ told them.

    John 14:25-27 (KJV) These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
     
  2. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    what Matthew and mark call an “unmatched” tribulation, in the parallel passage of Luke, it is called a “great distress and wrath on this people”. Therefore, by using the parallel texts, we can see that the unmatched great tribulation = the great distress on the land on wrath on this people.

    Mark 13:17-19 17How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 18Pray that this will not occur in the winter. 19For those will be days of tribulation unmatched from the beginning of God’s creation until now, and never to be seen again

    Matthew 24:19-21 19How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again

    Luke 21:23 23How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath against this people.
     
  3. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Thayer’s Greek lexicon defines the Greek word for “tribulation” in both Matthew and marks olivet discourse as:

    “of the afflictions of those hard pressed by siege and the calamities of war, Matthew 24:21, 29; Mark 13:19, 24;”
     
  4. rwb

    rwb Well-Known Member

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    Again, I cannot help but see how the disciples conflate the two different events as they attempt to understand the words of Christ. Distress is akin to great fear from that which Luke describes as vengeance that will come upon the nation. While both Matthew and Mark speak of great tribulation and affliction that will come as the Gospel is preached. But at the same time speak less specifically of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple when the armies surround the city.

    Mark 13:10 (KJV) And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

    In trying to force the events described into either the destruction, or great tribulation that will come to the disciples as the Gospel is proclaimed misses the mark. Neither can we force vengeance against Jerusalem as the promised wrath of God into the future nor can we limit great tribulation into the past. The OD only makes sense and does not cause contradiction when we understand Christ spoke of things specifically to come against an apostate people through the Roman Army, but also that great tribulation began for the disciples when they began to proclaim the Gospel unto the nations of the world. The vengeance ended with the utter destruction of the city and temple, but great tribulation will not be finished as long as the Gospel is being preached unto all the nations of the earth.

    Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

    Tribulation/Affliction - thlîpsis - pressure (literally or figuratively):—afflicted(-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

    Vengeance - ekdíkēsis - vindication, retribution:—(a-, re-)venge(-ance), punishment

    Vengeance is punishment for apostasy, but great tribulation/affliction is persecution for faithfulness.

    Edited to clarify.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2022
  5. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Well-Known Member

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    Just out of curiousity sake, since this verse is dealing with Christians most definitely, when do you see this happening? We of course know for a fact the dragon is Satan.

    Revelation 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
     
  6. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Why is what you quoted not the same as:

    luke 21:12 12But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before

    Matthew 24:9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake.

    which would then be completely distinct from:

    Luke 21:20-23 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people

    Matthew 24:15-21 So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days!20Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.
     
  7. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    your position doesn’t make sense because your conflating the persecution of the saints with the days of vengeance and wrath against the apostate Israelites. Jesus never warns to flee Judea nor pray one is worthy to escape persecution, but he does warn to flee Judea and pray one is worthy to escape the days of vengeance.
     
  8. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    you missed thayer’s Greek lexicon where in mattthew 24 and mark 13, “tribulation” is defined as:

    ““of the afflictions of those hard pressed by siege and the calamities of war, Matthew 24:21, 29; Mark 13:19, 24;”

     
  9. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think anyone denies that when the gospel is preached, there is tribulation and persecution. The OD specifically mentions this PRIOR to the the great tribulation, and you can read about it in the book of acts.

    BUT the “great tribulation” is specifically associated with Christ’s warning to flee judea and the days of vengeance.

     
  10. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, just trying to avoid the whole 70ad vs 2,000 plus years in the future thing. If some asks me my personal position, then fine, I’ll talk preterism.


    BUT, Just trying to understand what the “great tribulation” is according to scripture. How is it defined per the NT? Regardless if it was fulfilled in 70ad or still on the future.

    Unfortunately, there seems to be disagreement on what it is, not based on scripture, but one’s eschatological presupposition.
     
  11. rwb

    rwb Well-Known Member

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    Clininja, it really doesn't appear that you're interested in discussing when great tribulation comes. You simply continue to promote the view that fits the doctrine of PP which you are convinced is biblical. You disregard and ignore anything presented that does not fit that view and continue to re-hash the same thing in just about every discussion. Have a blessed Lord's Day.
     
  12. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    You are absolutely correct, the OP is not about discussing “when” the great tribulation comes, but “what” the great tribulation is.

    1.) is it God’s wrath?

    Evidence:

    A.) thayers Greek lexicon defines tribulation in Matthew and marks OD as:

    “of the afflictions of those hard pressed by siege and the calamities of war, Matthew 24:21, 29; Mark 13:19, 24

    B.) Luke’s parallel account defines It as the “great distress” on the Land and “wrath against this people”

    Matthew 24:16-21
    16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18And let no one in the field return for his cloak.19How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.

    Luke 21:21-23
    21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city. 22For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.23How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath against this people.

    2.) Is it persecution of God’s people?

    A.) If so, where does the OD define the great tribulation or great distress as persecution against God’s people?

    B.) why does the OD clearly differentiate between the persecution of God’s people and the great tribulation if they are the same event?

    Matthew 24:9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake.

    Matthew 24:19-21 19And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days!20Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be

    C.) why does Christ warn those to flee judea and pray that their flight is not on the sabbath in regards to the great tribulation, but not as it pertains to persecution?



    3.) is it something else?

    what is the evidence?
     
  13. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    A look at some more evidenced that the great tribulation is wrath.


    A.) who is charged with murdering the prophets and all the righteous blood shed? Apostate Israel, aka the harlot or Babylon the great, when using to scripture to interpret

    Luke 11:48-51
    So you are witnesses consenting to the deeds of your fathers: They killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. Because of this, the wisdom of God said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles; some of them they will kill and others they will persecute.’ As a result, this generation will be charged with the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the foundation of the world, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary.hYes, I tell you, all of it will be charged to this generation

    Mathew 23:35 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

    revelation 17:6 6I could see that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints and witnesses for Jesus

    revelation 18:24 And there was found in her the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who had been slain on the earth.

    B.) jesus called the destruction of Jerusalem, the “days of vengeance”, great distress”, and “WRATH on this people”. In revelation, Who faces the wrath of God for all the righteous blood shed? The harlot/Babylon the great, in the same way apostate Israel faces the wrath of God for all the righteous blood shed.

    Luke 21:23
    20But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city. 22For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.23How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath against this people.

    Revelation 16:619
    6For they have spilled the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink, as they deserve.”
    19The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. And God remembered Babylon the great and gave her the cup of the wine of the fury of His wrath.


    Revelation 17:16-18 revelation 17:6 6I could see that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints and witnesses for Jesus16And the ten horns and the beast that you saw will hate the prostitute. They will leave her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17For God has put it into their hearts to carry out His purpose by uniting to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18And the woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

    revelation 18:2,24
    2And he cried out in a mighty voice:
    Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great!a
    revelation 18:24 And there was found in her the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who had been slain on the earth.

    Revelation 19:2 2For His judgments are true and just. He has judged the great prostitute who corrupted the earth with her immorality. He has avenged the blood of His servants that was poured out by her hand.”


    C.) after apostate Israel/the harlot/Babylon the great is destroyed for murdering the prophets , the wedding feast is ready.


    Revelation 19:2,
    2For His judgments are true and just. He has judged the great prostitute who corrupted the earth with her immorality. He has avenged the blood of His servants that was poured out by her hand.”
    7Let us rejoice and be glad and give Him the glory. For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready.

    matthew 22:6-8
    6The rest seized his servants, mistreated them, and killed them.7The king was enraged, and he sent his troops to destroy those murderers and burn their city. 8Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited were not worthy.
     
  14. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    I don't see any of this being evidence for what you are proposing. I'm not seeing in any of those passages where it is ever involving the Greek word thlipsis. Whenever that Greek word is used in the NT it is almost exclusively involving something saints are experiencing. Saints wouldn't be experiencing the wrath of God.
     
  15. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    And I absolutely agree the saints wouldn’t be put the wrath of God.


    But the harlot, who is charged with all the righteous blood shed, does face the wrath of God, per revelation 16,17,18, and 19, would you disagree?
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2022
  16. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I believe THE great tribulation describes what happened around 70 AD when Jerusalem and its temple buildings were destroyed. And many of its people were killed. I believe that was a result of God's wrath as prophesied in passages like Luke 19:41-44 and in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24:15-22, Mark 13:14-20, Luke 21:20-24a).

    I believe there has been "great tribulation" for Christians for almost 2,000 years now in the form of persecution and other trials and tribulations that Christians have had to go through because of our faith. I don't believe there is any specific event that we can call "the great tribulation" that applies to believers.
     
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  17. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    well said. I agree
     
  18. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    my argument was that the harlot faces the wrath of God. Do you agree or disagree with that argument?
     
  19. Muckah

    Muckah New Member

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    Last edited: Aug 21, 2022
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  20. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    I agree the whore faces the wrath of God, but certainly not during great tribulation though, but after great tribulation.

    Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
    13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
    14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

    We already know from Revelation 19, this.

    Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

    Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
    21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


    These verses couldn't possibly be meaning during great tribulation. These verses couldn't possibly be meaning during the time of the following, either.

    Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
    5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
    6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
    7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


    This 42 months the beast is given to continue, this is meaning great tribulation which is also involving the following---until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled(Revelation 6:11). That is during the 5th seal, but it is not until the 6th seal that God's wrath is involved.

    And Matthew 24:29 clearly places the time of the 6th seal after the time of Matthew 24:15-21, which logically means that the time of the 5th seal---until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled(Revelation 6:11)---this is meaning during the time of great tribulation, which also proves that Matthew 24:15-21 is not involving God's wrath if that doesn't begin until the 6th seal.

    None of these passages I brought up give the impression any of these things are involving Jerusalem and the 2nd temple in the first century.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2022
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