What exactly is holy tradition?

[BobRyan]

Holy doesn't come just by divine pronouncement. Take, for example, the canon. Does anyone disagree that it is holy? If they do, then they allow an unholy thing to define their scriptures, rendering them unholy.
.

Those who claim that the canon is tradition - are in fact arguing that all Christians have some form of tradition.

I wonder if they realize that they are making that claim for all Christians when they do that.

 

[Rick Otto]

Holy tradition is the lived faith of the church rather than the written revelation given to the church by inspired men and women who wrote as the Holy Spirit guided them to write.

...and the canon is a tradition.
Sounds like it could be whatever I want it to be.

 

[~Anastasia~]

That would seem to be the best idea altho I have no idea who they would be of interest to other than those who already know what they are ....

Well, if it's not of interest, one doesn't need to read the thread then? There are a number of threads I never open because they don't sound as if they'd be of interest to me.

But I don't know, for example, if Anglicans consider their Church to have Holy Tradition, per se, and if so what elements they would espouse. Or how Lutherans might answer the same question, though I'm piecing together some of the elements of that.

So yes, it would be of interest to me, and would have been back when I was reading about different kinds of Churches and trying to figure out who believed what as well.

Your comment seems rather dismissive, dear sister. I was trying to promote productive discussion, not shut it down.

 

[~Anastasia~]

...and the canon is a tradition.
Sounds like it could be whatever I want it to be.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe that follows.

If a Tradition is equivalent to "whatever you want it to be", try inserting that conclusion into your sentence that drew you to that conclusion.


... and the canon is "whatever I want it to be".

I don't think anyone would argue that. So why would you equate

Tradition = whatever I want it to be

Based on the fact that the canon is part of Tradition?

I'm only trying to be very simply logical with your brief comment, but I don't believe it's a fair one and I hope I've demonstrated why I don't think so. Not trying to to pick on you, Rick.

Or your traditions.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Those who claim that the canon is tradition - are in fact arguing that all Christians have some form of tradition.

I wonder if they realize that they are making that claim for all Christians when they do that.

All Christians DO have some forms of traditions.

But the actual intent of this thread is Holy Tradition, which is more specific. Perhaps the lack of understanding of the distinction is the cause for the confusion.

 

[MoreCoffee]

...and the canon is a tradition.
Sounds like it could be whatever I want it to be.

Logic is not a strong suit for your post.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yes that is Jaroslav Pelikan.

Very well, I stand corrected. As I said, I had to look it up, and I found where (Met.?) Sviatoslav attributed it Lutheran Theologian Martin Marty during a speech he made earlier this year in Canada.

Tradition, or specifically Paradosis, is anything handed down, whether once or over generations. This is why the Greek verbal form of the word was used when Christ "handed over" the teaChings He did. It was Tradition from the moment Christ gave it over to the APostles, and for 18 years, it was Paradosis that the Church stood on. This is why, only 25 years later, Paul instructed the Church in Thessaloniki to follow the Tradition which the Apostles had given.

Liturgy was already a Tradition of the culture. Their services were all liturgical. So were Icons, incense, and fasting and feasting.

Thank you, yes.

I'm guessing you mean the Jewish Temple Traditions from which early Christianity took it's roots?

 

[~Anastasia~]

This thread seems interesting.

My Story - Was brought up in the Salvation Army. I think it is fair to say there is little 'holy tradition' other than the respect expected for God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

And my experience has been that even little things like a prepared prayer area with candles lit (a chapel I suppose) is received by myself with much spiritual joy and respect. You know in your spirit that such, is a tradition dedicated to serving God and man in Love. Especially (for me anyway) when such is available in a stressful environment like a city.

Such to me is a traditional tool to both worship God and serve man.

Thank you for another perspective.

Before I had any sense of tradition, Holy or otherwise, I had a somewhat similar experience when I visited a Methodist church that I now realize had retained just a few elements from a liturgical tradition (I did not recognize that fact at the time). But I found an atmosphere of sacredness there, and it resonated with my spirit as an appropriate atmosphere for the worship of a Holy God.

It was a very profound and moving thing for me.

 

[~Anastasia~]

That's not correct. Jesus would have been familiar with the Jewish rituals of temple worship just as the disciples would have been. But that was not how the early 'church' conducted their meetings. The element of breaking bread was the only thing that was traditional, and also the only tradition that was directed by Jesus to carry on.

I would have to say that that wasn't the ONLY tradition Jesus told them to carry on. At least if you hold to belief that the end of Matthew can actually be attributed to Christ.

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you

One should rightly include Trinitarian baptism, along with "all that I have commanded you".

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I would have to say that that wasn't the ONLY tradition Jesus told them to carry on. At least if you hold to belief that the end of Matthew can actually be attributed to Christ.

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you

One should rightly include Trinitarian baptism, along with "all that I have commanded you".

There's actually 49 that would complete the list of God given 'traditions' that are mainly directed at the individual.
1: Repent
2: Follow Me
3: Rejoice
4: Let Your Light Shine
5: Honor God's Law
6: Be Reconciled
7: Do Not Lust
8: Keep Your Word
9: Go the Second Mile
10: Love Your Enemies
11: Be Perfect
12: Practice Secret Disciplines
13: Lay Up Treasures
14: Seek God’s Kingdom
15: Judge Not
16: Do Not Cast Pearls
17: Ask, Seek, and Knock
18: Do Unto Others
19: Choose the Narrow Way
20: Beware of False Prophets
21: Pray for Laborers
22: Be Wise as Serpents
23: Fear God, Not Man
24: Hear God’s Voice
25: Take My Yoke
26: Honor Your Parents
27: Beware of Leaven
28: Deny Yourself
29: Despise Not Little Ones
30: Go to Offenders
31: Beware of Covetousness
32: Forgive Offenders
33: Honor Marriage
34: Be a Servant
35: Be a House of Prayer
36: Ask in Faith
37: Bring In the Poor
38: Render to Caesar
39: Love the Lord
40: Love Your Neighbor
41: Await My Return
42: Take, Eat, and Drink
43: Be Born Again
44: Keep My Commandments
45: Watch and Pray
46: Feed My Sheep
47: Baptize My Disciples
48: Receive God’s Power
49: Make Disciples

 

[~Anastasia~]

There's actually 49 that would complete the list of God given 'traditions' that are mainly directed at the individual.
1: Repent
2: Follow Me
3: Rejoice
4: Let Your Light Shine
5: Honor God's Law
6: Be Reconciled
7: Do Not Lust
8: Keep Your Word
9: Go the Second Mile
10: Love Your Enemies
11: Be Perfect
12: Practice Secret Disciplines
13: Lay Up Treasures
14: Seek God’s Kingdom
15: Judge Not
16: Do Not Cast Pearls
17: Ask, Seek, and Knock
18: Do Unto Others
19: Choose the Narrow Way
20: Beware of False Prophets
21: Pray for Laborers
22: Be Wise as Serpents
23: Fear God, Not Man
24: Hear God’s Voice
25: Take My Yoke
26: Honor Your Parents
27: Beware of Leaven
28: Deny Yourself
29: Despise Not Little Ones
30: Go to Offenders
31: Beware of Covetousness
32: Forgive Offenders
33: Honor Marriage
34: Be a Servant
35: Be a House of Prayer
36: Ask in Faith
37: Bring In the Poor
38: Render to Caesar
39: Love the Lord
40: Love Your Neighbor
41: Await My Return
42: Take, Eat, and Drink
43: Be Born Again
44: Keep My Commandments
45: Watch and Pray
46: Feed My Sheep
47: Baptize My Disciples
48: Receive God’s Power
49: Make Disciples

That's a nice list. My first thought was to wonder if it's compiled somewhere, or if you went through and assembled it. I certainly can't think offhand of anything in Scripture that isn't written here.

However ... Whether or not it is a complete list depends on your view of Scripture. There are of course those who teach that if it isn't specifically commanded in Scripture, it's a sin. Which I find a very limited view and can lead to such things as forbidding musical instruments used in worship. Some say that things not included in Scripture may be allowed, but are not commanded (or a similar view). And some say that not every thing we are to do was written down.

I think that's why the canon of Scripture part is so pivotal. How did those early Churches function then, before things were written down? We know it took a while for everything to be written, and slightly longer for it to be agreed upon and fully disseminated.

I believe during the lives of the Apostles, they were doing exactly what Christ told them to do. Going into the world, spreading the Gospel (which preaching the Gospel is not on your list, so I just realized it is necessarily incomplete), establishing Churches, and teaching the people how to conduct themselves.

I don't believe it is all written down, as Scripture even clearly says.

According to DarthBagel's post:

Then explain:

(2 Thess. 3v6)
"Now we command you, beloved, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to keep away from believers who are living in idleness and not according to the tradition that they received from us."

(2 Thess. 2v15)
"So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter."

(1 Cor. 11v2)
"I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions just as I handed them on to you."

And for that matter, I don't think the men who were responsible for the canon had as their intention that every single element be written down. I read once (and have been looking for the quote ever since - I wish I'd noted it!) where one of the ECFs expressed concern that such common daily actions as were not written down (the example he gave was making the sign of the cross upon oneself - likely done on the forehead back then) - he was concerned lest such things be forgotten and lost. So clearly there were important practices not fully detailed in writing at that time. I do wish I could provide the quote.

Such thoughts and readings have shaped my beliefs though. And I think the method of excising everything not explicitly spelled out in Scripture will leave one bereft of certain beneficial elements that the Church was intended to have.

 

[Rick Otto]

50. "Turn the other cheek"

 

[Rick Otto]

I'm sorry, but I don't believe that follows.
If a Tradition is equivalent to "whatever you want it to be", try inserting that conclusion into your sentence that drew you to that conclusion.
... and the canon is "whatever I want it to be".
I don't think anyone would argue that. So why would you equate
Tradition = whatever I want it to be
Based on the fact that the canon is part of Tradition?
I'm only trying to be very simply logical with your brief comment, but I don't believe it's a fair one and I hope I've demonstrated why I don't think so. Not trying to to pick on you, Rick.

Or your traditions.

LOL,... you have both my permission and forgiveness for picking on me.
I don't deny I have traditions, btw.

"Holy tradition is the lived faith of the church rather than the written revelation given to the church by inspired men and women who wrote as the Holy Spirit guided them to write."

Here we have one definition - "the lived faith" - about as ambiguous as a phrase could be, and another definition that points out the canon as tradition, yet there are different canons (not including protestants), and different experiences of "the lived faith", even amongst the lives of the apostles.

That establishes a convenient elasticity in the definition, don't you agree?

 

[Rick Otto]

Logic is not a strong suit for your post.

Nor is it for most of yours.
The admiration is mutual.

 

[~Anastasia~]

LOL,... you have both my permission and forgiveness for picking on me.
I don't deny I have traditions, btw.

"Holy tradition is the lived faith of the church rather than the written revelation given to the church by inspired men and women who wrote as the Holy Spirit guided them to write."

Here we have one definition - "the lived faith" - about as ambiguous as a phrase could be, and another definition that points out the canon as tradition, yet there are different canons (not including protestants), and different experiences of "the lived faith", even amongst the lives of the apostles.

That establishes a convenient elasticity in the definition, don't you agree?

Thank you for your graciousness.

From your position, you have a point. But it goes back to my answer to MC when he asked what newer churches had.

There really IS no common lived faith among the other. Churches I've visited and belonged to. Such things are not thought of in a bad light - something like a retreat weekend brings everyone into a commonality of living, teaching, and experience for a couple of days. At least in that one Church.

I can't speak for other Churches. But Orthodoxy has an incredibly rich "shared lived faith". I can meet people in forums who live in other countries, have other jurisdictions, go to different Churches. And yet ... This morning, we all read the same Scripture reading. We all pray roughly the same prayers. When we attend Church, we all hear the same Gospel reading. We know that we all partake of the same Eucharist. When I drive to another city and visit their Church, I know I will be offered the same meal and fellowship afterwards. We all fast in the same way on the same days.

That is "shared lived faith" don't you think? Wherever I go, I am home. Whoever I talk to, they understand what I'm saying. We have the same disciplines, the same goals, understand the same struggles.

We are not all identical, to be sure. I am blessed in that my Church, Fr. M is very aware of each person's individuality and tailors his words for each of us. But we live as one Body, with much practice in common.

There is simply nothing to compare to that in my. Protestant experience, to be sure. So from that point of view, I understand why you would say it is "elastic". I'm sure to you it is.

But to me, it is not. And this is only part of it.

I can't speak for those in any other Church. I know there are things they may not share with Orthodoxy. But that is a part of our traditions/Holy Tradition (I may be blurring that line somewhat).

 

[~Anastasia~]

Oh, and btw ... I would not say that the Canon of Scripture IS Tradition. I would say though that the Canon (Table of contents) was established BY Tradition. And I would also say that the most important part of Holy Tradition ARE the Holy Scriptures.

More than anything else, it is what is written within the Holy Scriptures that are central to what we both believe and practice.

(I am not of course claiming any form of sola scriptura - but Scripture IS central and it IS authoritative for us as the most important part of Holy Tradition.)

Just realized I failed to address that.

 

[sculleywr]

That's not correct. Jesus would have been familiar with the Jewish rituals of temple worship just as the disciples would have been. But that was not how the early 'church' conducted their meetings. The element of breaking bread was the only thing that was traditional, and also the only tradition that was directed by Jesus to carry on.

That and the Leitorgia, the frequent fasting, the use of incense. Those Jewish rituals were commanded by God and were all the early Christians knew.

 

[sculleywr]

Those who claim that the canon is tradition - are in fact arguing that all Christians have some form of tradition. I wonder if they realize that they are making that claim for all Christians when they do that.

Yes we do. And my statement related to that is saying that not only do all people have a tradition, but that all people in a church allow a tradition to define what is and isn't Scripture.

In fact, traditions are inescapable. Systematic theology is just a fancy word for "traditional interpretation of our denomination".
There are translation traditions, textual traditions, practical traditions, all of which cannot be confirmed in the Scripture itself because they come before you even read scripture, and yet they define Scripture for us.

 

[sculleywr]

...and the canon is a tradition. Sounds like it could be whatever I want it to be.

it could be, but not if you wanted it to be Tradition. It would be new if you changed it. The Masoretic Textual canon is not Tradition for the Church because it came from Jews who rejected Christ, for example. The use of the Masoretic text in Christian churches didn't begin until the 16th century.

 

[sculleywr]

Very well, I stand corrected. As I said, I had to look it up, and I found where (Met.?) Sviatoslav attributed it Lutheran Theologian Martin Marty during a speech he made earlier this year in Canada. Thank you, yes. I'm guessing you mean the Jewish Temple Traditions from which early Christianity took it's roots?

yes I am meaning that