What exactly is holy tradition?

[MoreCoffee]

Even when we differ on the content of the bible we agree more or less what a bible is; specifically it is a collection of holy books written under inspiration and forming the foundations for the christian faith. But when we talk about tradition matters are less clear. In the bible tradition is used to describe teachings some of which are good and some of which are not. The Pharisees were noteworthy for having some traditions that abrogated the commandments of God's law. Naturally such traditions would fit the "not good" category. The apostles handed down traditions which christians were encouraged to accept and act upon, these traditions would fit the "good" category.

But Catholic and Orthodox Christians refer to "holy tradition" and that phrase can be confusing for people who are not Catholic or Orthodox. So I thought I might hazard a brief explanation of what holy tradition is.

First I'll mention the bible. Most of us can read and probably own at least one printed bible which we can hold in our hands and see or feel. It's substantial and definite. It contains words and we know, as christians, that the words in it are important to us. In these things the bible is quite unlike the rest of holy tradition.

The non-biblical holy traditions of the ancient churches are not written in a book and as far as I know nobody has ever attempted to write them all down and divide them into chapter and verse so that people could quote them like we in GT quote bible verses. Why is that so? Well, I offer this explanation. Holy tradition is the lived faith of the church rather than the written revelation given to the church by inspired men and women who wrote as the Holy Spirit guided them to write. The lived faith of the church is no less given by the Holy Spirit than is the bible but it is not a collection of books and words. It's a lived experience and a way of doing things. Some of holy tradition can be written; for example, the words to be said in the liturgy can be written down. Some of holy tradition can't really be written; for example the posture to be adopted in various parts of the liturgy can't be written it has to be seen and experienced to be properly understood. Of course the examples I've given are only two, easy to grasp, examples and holy tradition is much wider and deeper than the two examples alone. How we pray, what we do, how we are to live, how we express love for one another and love for God are all influenced by holy tradition.

I hope some of my Catholic and Orthodox friends will add to this brief description. I hope that what we write might help to clarify some issues that arise from time to time in GT.

 

[sculleywr]

Even when we differ on the content of the bible we agree more or less what a bible is; specifically it is a collection of holy books written under inspiration and forming the foundations for the christian faith. But when we talk about tradition matters are less clear. In the bible tradition is used to describe teachings some of which are good and some of which are not. The Pharisees were noteworthy for having some traditions that abrogated the commandments of God's law. Naturally such traditions would fit the "not good" category. The apostles handed down traditions which christians were encouraged to accept and act upon, these traditions would fit the "good" category. But Catholic and Orthodox Christians refer to "holy tradition" and that phrase can be confusing for people who are not Catholic or Orthodox. So I thought I might hazard a brief explanation of what holy tradition is. First I'll mention the bible. Most of us can read and probably own at least one printed bible which we can hold in our hands and see or feel. It's substantial and definite. It contains words and we know, as christians, that the words in it are important to us. In these things the bible is quite unlike the rest of holy tradition. The non-biblical holy traditions of the ancient churches are not written in a book and as far as I know nobody has ever attempted to write them all down and divide them into chapter and verse so that people could quote them like we in GT quote bible verses. Why is that so? Well, I offer this explanation. Holy tradition is the lived faith of the church rather than the written revelation given to the church by inspired men and women who wrote as the Holy Spirit guided them to write. The lived faith of the church is no less given by the Holy Spirit than is the bible but it is not a collection of books and words. It's a lived experience and a way of doing things. Some of holy tradition can be written; for example, the words to be said in the liturgy can be written down. Some of holy tradition can't really be written; for example the posture to be adopted in various parts of the liturgy can't be written it has to be seen and experienced to be properly understood. Of course the examples I've given are only two, easy to grasp, examples and holy tradition is much wider and deeper than the two examples alone. How we pray, what we do, how we are to live, how we express love for one another and love for God are all influenced by holy tradition. I hope some of my Catholic and Orthodox friends will add to this brief description. I hope that what we write might help to clarify some issues that arise from time to time in GT.

I really like this description.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I think this is a wonderful topic for a thread. Hopefully we can go along and get into a good discussion.

One thing I wish that everyone knew ... when I see questions such as "which is more important - tradition or the Bible?" or some such, this betrays a lack of understanding of what Tradition is.

Tradition INCLUDES the Scriptures. I have been told that the Scriptures are in fact the most important part of Tradition, and the most authoritative part. You really can't compare the two, contrast them, or pit them against each other - because in large part they are the same.

It's rather like asking "what is more important - cars or means of transportation?" The question makes no sense really. If you must divide the two, in fact, "transportation" is the reasonable choice, since it includes both cars as well as other methods. But it really makes no sense to try to divide them.

In the same way, Holy Tradition includes the Holy Scriptures, and they are our most blessed part of Holy Tradition, and have the most authority. But they do not fill the entire description of "Tradition" and crowd out everything else. If that were so, we would lose much else of value.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I really like this description.

Thanks, it came to mind because of some experimental demonstrations done by my professors in chemistry.

I think this is a wonderful topic for a thread. Hopefully we can go along and get into a good discussion.

One thing I wish that everyone knew ... when I see questions such as "which is more important - tradition or the Bible?" or some such, this betrays a lack of understanding of what Tradition is.

Tradition INCLUDES the Scriptures. I have been told that the Scriptures are in fact the most important part of Tradition, and the most authoritative part. You really can't compare the two, contrast them, or pit them against each other - because in large part they are the same.

It's rather like asking "what is more important - cars or means of transportation?" The question makes no sense really. If you must divide the two, in fact, "transportation" is the reasonable choice, since it includes both cars as well as other methods. But it really makes no sense to try to divide them.

In the same way, Holy Tradition includes the Holy Scriptures, and they are our most blessed part of Holy Tradition, and have the most authority. But they do not fill the entire description of "Tradition" and crowd out everything else. If that were so, we would lose much else of value.

Exactly. Holy tradition is not something apart from the bible and the bible is not something apart from holy tradition. The only significant distinction is the means of transmission and even that is not very distinct. The bible is written, some of the other parts of holy tradition are not written and that's about the only thing one can say without breaking the gift God has given to us.

 

[BobRyan]

Even when we differ on the content of the bible we agree more or less what a bible is; specifically it is a collection of holy books written under inspiration and forming the foundations for the christian faith. But when we talk about tradition matters are less clear. In the bible tradition is used to describe teachings some of which are good and some of which are not. The Pharisees were noteworthy for having some traditions that abrogated the commandments of God's law. Naturally such traditions would fit the "not good" category.

However as Christ points out in Matt 16 "Pharisee tradition = not good" was not an a priori assumption held by the disciples or that the Jews had as we see in Mark 7:6-13. I think we all know that by now.

They had to "test" the tradition in true Mark 7:6-13 style to "see if" it failed the test.

The apostles handed down traditions which christians were encouraged to accept and act upon, these traditions would fit the "good" category.

Only if it passed the test as Paul notes "IF WE (Apostles) or an Angel from heaven should bring to you another Gospel - let him be accursed" Gal 1:6-11

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

when I see questions such as "which is more important - tradition or the Bible?" or some such, this betrays a lack of understanding of what Tradition is.

That is not correct.

 

[sculleywr]

That is not correct.

it is correct. This is not a debate about whether we should follow Tradition. This is a discussion about what Tradition is. If you are here to argue that Tradition is what you, and anti-Tradition advocate, say it is, you are wrong about what Tradition is and nobody in this discussion actually believes what you argue against. So please, subscribe and learn, or unsubscribe and don't derail this thread.

 

[BobRyan]

The OP begins by pointing out examples of tradition that are slammed in the NT - for example the example given about the Pharisees - found in Mark 7:6-13.

 

[sculleywr]

The OP begins by pointing out examples of tradition that are slammed in the NT - for example the example given about the Pharisees - found in Mark 7:6-13.

Bob. See the OP? It wasn't asking for your debate. You're off topic.

 

[mmksparbud]

Can someone please tell me how a man made object, or words, or anything that comes from man be made "holy" without God expressly saying it is holy?? I mean, man can't make anything holy, only hold it in high regard and honor--but "holy" can only come with divine pronouncement. Tradition is just that "we have done this this way for a very long time now and that's how it's done."---how can a man made tradition be considered "HOLY?"

 

[sculleywr]

Can someone please tell me how a man made object, or words, or anything that comes from man be made "holy" without God expressly saying it is holy?? I mean, man can't make anything holy, only hold it in high regard and honor--but "holy" can only come with divine pronouncement. Tradition is just that "we have done this this way for a very long time now and that's how it's done."---how can a man made tradition be considered "HOLY?"

Holy doesn't come just by divine pronouncement. Take, for example, the canon. Does anyone disagree that it is holy? If they do, then they allow an unholy thing to define their scriptures, rendering them unholy.

When we say that Tradition is holy, it is according to the meaning of the word: set apart. Tradition is holy because it is the framework in which we read scripture.

 

[mmksparbud]

canon
(ˈkænən)
n
1. (Ecclesiastical Terms) Christianity a Church decree enacted to regulate morals or religious practices

2. (often plural) a general rule or standard, as of judgment, morals, etc

3. (often plural) a principle or accepted criterion applied in a branch of learning or art

4. (Roman Catholic Church) RC Church the complete list of the canonized saints

5. (Roman Catholic Church) RC Church the prayer in the Mass in which the Host is consecrated

6. (Literary & Literary Critical Terms) a list of writings, esp sacred writings, officially recognized as genuine

7. (Ecclesiastical Terms) a list of writings, esp sacred writings, officially recognized as genuine

8. (Classical Music) a piece of music in which an extended melody in one part is imitated successively in one or more other parts. See also round31, catch33

9. (Literary & Literary Critical Terms) a list of the works of an author that are accepted as authentic

10. (Printing, Lithography & Bookbinding) (formerly) a size of printer's type equal to 48 point

[Old English, from Latin, from Greek kanōn rule, rod for measuring, standard; related to kanna reed, cane1]


canon
(ˈkænən)
n
1. (Ecclesiastical Terms) one of several priests on the permanent staff of a cathedral, who are responsible for organizing services, maintaining the fabric, etc

2. (Roman Catholic Church) Also called: canon regular RC Church a member of either of two religious orders, the Augustinian or Premonstratensian Canons, living communally as monks but performing clerical duties

[C13: from Anglo-French canunie, from Late Latin canonicus one living under a rule, from canon1]

Collins English Dictionary –

I guess that depends on what you define as canon!!! The bible is the word of God--His story of our world, His instructions to us, His instructions to His disciples for our salvation--and that is what makes it Holy.

 

[sculleywr]

canon (ˈkænən) n 1. (Ecclesiastical Terms) Christianity a Church decree enacted to regulate morals or religious practices 2. (often plural) a general rule or standard, as of judgment, morals, etc 3. (often plural) a principle or accepted criterion applied in a branch of learning or art 4. (Roman Catholic Church) RC Church the complete list of the canonized saints 5. (Roman Catholic Church) RC Church the prayer in the Mass in which the Host is consecrated 6. (Literary & Literary Critical Terms) a list of writings, esp sacred writings, officially recognized as genuine 7. (Ecclesiastical Terms) a list of writings, esp sacred writings, officially recognized as genuine 8. (Classical Music) a piece of music in which an extended melody in one part is imitated successively in one or more other parts. See also round31, catch33 9. (Literary & Literary Critical Terms) a list of the works of an author that are accepted as authentic 10. (Printing, Lithography & Bookbinding) (formerly) a size of printer's type equal to 48 point [Old English, from Latin, from Greek kanōn rule, rod for measuring, standard; related to kanna reed, cane1] canon (ˈkænən) n 1. (Ecclesiastical Terms) one of several priests on the permanent staff of a cathedral, who are responsible for organizing services, maintaining the fabric, etc 2. (Roman Catholic Church) Also called: canon regular RC Church a member of either of two religious orders, the Augustinian or Premonstratensian Canons, living communally as monks but performing clerical duties [C13: from Anglo-French canunie, from Late Latin canonicus one living under a rule, from canon1] Collins English Dictionary – I guess that depends on what you define as canon!!! The bible is the word of God--His story of our world, His instructions to us, His instructions to His disciples for our salvation--and that is what makes it Holy.

Specifically, the canon of scripture is a Tradition. There is no Canon without Tradition in it somewhere.

 

[mmksparbud]

Specifically, the canon of scripture is a Tradition. There is no Canon without Tradition in it somewhere.

HUH?? Sorry--can't quite grasp what your saying there. The bible is God's owners manual--what does tradition have to do with it--it's from God, not a Shakespearean play. Christians follow it because we believe it's of God,

 

[~Anastasia~]

I believe Sculley is referring to the canon of Holy Scripture - the books that make up the Holy Bible.

The other meanings are beside the point he was making.

 

[mmksparbud]

I believe Sculley is referring to the canon of Holy Scripture - the books that make up the Holy Bible.

The other meanings are beside the point he was making.

Yah--I know--just being silly--but it's still Holy because it's the word of God not because some playwright wrote it and we have a tradition of reading it and have decided to make it holy.

 

[SteveNZ]

This thread seems interesting.

My Story - Was brought up in the Salvation Army. I think it is fair to say there is little 'holy tradition' other than the respect expected for God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

And my experience has been that even little things like a prepared prayer area with candles lit (a chapel I suppose) is received by myself with much spiritual joy and respect. You know in your spirit that such, is a tradition dedicated to serving God and man in Love. Especially (for me anyway) when such is available in a stressful environment like a city.

Such to me is a traditional tool to both worship God and serve man.

 

[sculleywr]

HUH?? Sorry--can't quite grasp what your saying there. The bible is God's owners manual--what does tradition have to do with it--it's from God, not a Shakespearean play. Christians follow it because we believe it's of God,

The Canon describes what is in scripture. It is your table of contents, if you will, of scripture. And when you change what is contained in Scripture, you effect your doctrine.

 

[Tallguy88]

MOD HAT ON

Please stay on topic to the OP. Discussions outside the scope of the OP should take place in another thread.

MOD HAT OFF

 

[MoreCoffee]

Hear hear!

This thread is about defining holy tradition and explaining what it is. It isn't an opportunity for people to nay say holy tradition. There's already dozens of threads that nay say.