What does the US "Pledge of Allegiance" mean to you?

chalice_thunder

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crazyfingers said:
So the bottom line is:

You won't say it because it minimizes your faith

I won't say it because I don't believe it and because the government can't tell me what is the perferred religious belief.

Those who want to keep it for some reason think that it's OK for the government to tell people to say something that conflicts with their beliefs related to religion.

Well, they are wrong. It's not OK for the governemnt to tell people what is the preferred belief when it comes to issues of religion.

The pledge should be eliminated or at least it's saying should NEVER be sponsored by a government entity.
Basically - at least NOBODY should ever be forced to say it. That would be a return to the dark days of McCarthyism. Thankfully they are over...and may they STAY over!
 
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chalice_thunder

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Palatka44 said:
:sick: Revelation 3:16
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Palatka44 - I do not serve an angry God. And believe me, I am ANYTHING BUT lukewarm. I am passionately in love with God. :wave:
 
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crazyfingers

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chalice_thunder said:
Basically - at least NOBODY should ever be forced to say it. That would be a return to the dark days of McCarthyism. Thankfully they are over...and may they STAY over!
The question is, what is forced? In 1943 the SC ruled that no one can be forced to say it. But I'm sure that when the teacher goes up to the flag in the morning, s/he doesn't say. "OK, anyone who doesn't want to say this it's OK. And by the way, just because the government says so, you don't have to believe in a god." Not likely. It's still coersion. Little kids are not equipped to resist the teacher and they will do as they are told.

Some schools/states even require anyone who doesn't want to say it to go out in the hall. Talk about coersion!
 
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TLGitom

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BreakPoint
cultural commentary with Prison Fellowship's Chuck Colson
http://link.crosswalk.com/UM/T.asp?A1.25.18204.1.672091

January 19, 2004

One Nation Under Whom? - The Founders' Compact

Today is the holiday in which we celebrate Martin Luther King, Jr.'s
birthday, and all over the country millions of children are studying his
life and his work. They'll learn that his Letter from a Birmingham Jail
is one of the most eloquent defenses of the law of God that must
undergird our nation's laws.

How astonished King would be, were he alive today, to hear the shrill
claims from secular ideologues that America was founded as an explicitly
secular nation.

In the New York Times recently, Susan Jacoby argued that it's a
"misconception, promulgated by the Christian right, that the American
government was founded on divine authority rather than human reason."

Nonsense, Dr. King would have retorted; after all, his entire campaign
to abolish unjust laws was predicated on his belief that civil laws must
square with the lawgiver God.

As King knew-and most scholars agree-for the first time in history, two
ideological streams partially converged in America, one coming from the
Judeo-Christian tradition, the other from Enlightenment thinkers.
Adherents to both traditions agreed (for different reasons) that the new
government should neither establish nor interfere with the church. But
this certainly did not mean that America was to be a nation free from
religious influences.

George Washington was explicit: "Of all the dispositions and habits
which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are
indispensable supports."

In his marvelous book On Two Wings, theologian Michael Novak contends
that the faith of the founding fathers was deeply rooted in the writings
of ancient scripture, especially the Jewish covenant. As he put it,
secular writers typically cut off "one of the two wings by which the
American eagle flies"-the one that is America's "compact" with the
biblical God. They understood, with Thomas Jefferson, that "no nation
has ever yet existed or even been governed without religion. Nor can
be." Why? Because, in the founders' estimation, virtue was the
precondition for liberty.

While the founders admittedly did not use the word God in the
Constitution, they didn't need to. The "laws of nature and nature's God"
had already been appealed to in the Declaration of Independence, which
provided the context for the constitutional debate.

No one made the case better than Martin Luther King, Jr., that America's
founders intended religion to undergird America's laws. "One has not
only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws," King wrote.
"But conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws."
How does one determine whether a law is just or unjust? The answer would
likely make Jacoby, Barry Lynn, and secular ideologues cringe. "A just
law," King said, "squares with the moral law of the law of God. An
unjust law . is out of harmony with the moral law."

As we celebrate King's birthday and his success in advancing the civil
rights cause in America, let's remember that without his defense of the
law of God, we would still be a segregated nation today. We need to
learn from his stirring Letter from a Birmingham Jail that it is the
moral law that undergirds the nation's law.

America is a purely secular state? Don't tell that to the gentlemen
farmers who founded America-nor to those who today honor the legacy of
Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
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chalice_thunder

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crazyfingers said:
The question is, what is forced? In 1943 the SC ruled that no one can be forced to say it. But I'm sure that when the teacher goes up to the flag in the morning, s/he doesn't say. "OK, anyone who doesn't want to say this it's OK. And by the way, just because the government says so, you don't have to believe in a god." Not likely. It's still coersion. Little kids are not equipped to resist the teacher and they will do as they are told.

Some schools/states even require anyone who doesn't want to say it to go out in the hall. Talk about coersion!
Agree. It is best left out of everything. Pledge in private - or better yet, get involved in politics for the good of all! :clap:
 
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crazyfingers

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chalice_thunder

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TLGitom said:
America is a purely secular state? Don't tell that to the gentlemen
farmers who founded America-nor to those who today honor the legacy of
Martin Luther King, Jr.
While our country may be founded upon principles and morals found in religion, it is not the mandate of every citizen to be religious.

And, if we ARE supposed to be a Christian nation, then which denomination shall we all be? I will only accept Liberal Episcopalian practice. I'll bet there are LOTS of people on this board who would just love that!
:wave:
 
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crazyfingers

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chalice_thunder said:
While our country may be founded upon principles and morals found in religion, it is not the mandate of every citizen to be religious.

And, if we ARE supposed to be a Christian nation, then which denomination shall we all be? I will only accept Liberal Episcopalian practice. I'll bet there are LOTS of people on this board who would just love that!
:wave:
It's amazing these people who keep claiming that the founders wanted the US to be a Christain nation. We'll if that was what they wanted, they did a lousy job writing the constituition given that christianity is not mentioned and the only comments on religion are to keep the government out.

There is the "but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States. " clause in Article VI

There is the 1st Amendment that keeps the government neutral on issues of religion and...

...even the oaths of office do not mention a god. "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." Article II Section 1
 
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TLGitom

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chalice_thunder said:
While our country may be founded upon principles and morals found in religion, it is not the mandate of every citizen to be religious.

And, if we ARE supposed to be a Christian nation, then which denomination shall we all be? I will only accept Liberal Episcopalian practice. I'll bet there are LOTS of people on this board who would just love that!
:wave:
And no one on this board will ever "force" you to be otherwise.
 
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Key Of David

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The early churches were full of tradition that had nothing to do with God's Word. Jesus was against this. To pledge allegiance to God's Nation is a good thing and a blessed thing. I'm glad I had the health as a child to do so when I did. I am more thankful to have been born in this nation than you could know.
 
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chalice_thunder

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Key Of David said:
The early churches were full of tradition that had nothing to do with God's Word. Jesus was against this. To pledge allegiance to God's Nation is a good thing and a blessed thing. I'm glad I had the health as a child to do so when I did. I am more thankful to have been born in this nation than you could know.
Please do not tell me you think that the US is "God's Nation." God created the whole world - and all the peoples therein. To say otherwise is a heresy.
 
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LiberalChristian

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Key Of David said:
The early churches were full of tradition that had nothing to do with God's Word. Jesus was against this. To pledge allegiance to God's Nation is a good thing and a blessed thing. I'm glad I had the health as a child to do so when I did. I am more thankful to have been born in this nation than you could know.
You raise an interesting point. Exactly which Nation is the God's Kingdom? It seems that the last time I read the scripture Jesus said his kingdom is not of this earth. So, to which kingdom are you refering?
 
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Key Of David

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A nation is not a kingdom...and yet is. America is not a kingdom but was founded by our only King. I truely believe it was and is blessed and sustained to this day by our Almighty Creator. To pledge allegiance to good things that God has raised up and uses, is to pledge goodness in the land....and there can no bad come of that. I guess it is all according to what you believe.
 
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crazyfingers

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Key Of David said:
A nation is not a kingdom...and yet is. America is not a kingdom but was founded by our only King. I truely believe it was and is blessed and sustained to this day by our Almighty Creator. To pledge allegiance to good things that God has raised up and uses, is to pledge goodness in the land....and there can no bad come of that. I guess it is all according to what you believe.
No one says you can't if you want to. However it's not up to the government to decide that a god exists and to teach it to all school kids.

President Eisenhower, during the Act’s [that added "Under god to the pledge]signing cere-mony, stated: "From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty." Source

The intent of religious indoctrination is clear.
 
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