chalice_thunder
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And do you doubt God's grace and favor rests equally upon France? Palestine? Iraq?Key Of David said:
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What does the US "Pledge of Allegiance" mean to you?
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LiberalChristian
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WHAT?!?!Key Of David said:
Do you mean to say that America (more correctly the United States - there is a difference you know, ask any Canadian you might meet) was founded by Jesus? Pledge to the good things God has raised up? Do you mean the good things like what the Europeans did to the Native Americans? Or do you mean the good things like the bombing of Dresden? Or perhaps you mean to good things like when the military was called out to shoot union organizers during the labor movement 100 years ago? Or perhaps it was when World War I Veterans were shot down by McArthur during thier protests in Washington? Good things, good things like the children killed in Vietnam or the women who were raped. Good things like supporting dictators in Chile and Argentina. Then again you might mean when in the south African Americans were set on by police because the protested for equal rights? I am sure that the four men that were killed in the south while trying to assist blacks to vote would agree with you about all these "good things."
Then again that was the past. It has nothing to do with the good things like the American Children that go to bed hungry every night while corporate fat cats get millions in tax cuts. It has nothing to do with the students from middle class families who are trying to get an education but can't get the classes they need because of budget cuts. It has nothing to do with the millions of WORKING Americans that can't afford heath care. It has nothing to do with the CHRISTIANS that advocate violence to stop abortion, you know little things like shooting doctors or blowing up abortion clinics. It has nothing to do with the 400-500 seats at the Thanksgiving tables this past November because we have fought an unjust war in Iraq.
Yes, if Jesus did establish this nation he must be feeling pretty proud right now.
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LiberalChristian
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One note, I must admit that my last post was a bit of a rant. After a little thought I realized I should make one thing clear.
Of all earthly nations, the United States is by far the best that has ever been. It is the best that there is. I honestly believe that we are living in a golden age that will be long remebered as such.
Having siad this though, we must remember that we ARE in fact an earthly kingdom. We are far from being even a shadow of God's kingdom. Much of what people see as a blessing has turned out the be a curse for many others. If this were a nation establish by the ONE TRUE KING it would be a much different and much better place. Until his return and he establishes his kingdom we have something that is pretty darn good.
It is funny, Jesus said that his kingdom is not of this world. Yet, for the past 1700 years people have been trying to build his kingdom here on earth. All I want to know is when has a Christian church and a earthly kingdom merged without it being a detriment to both.
Of all earthly nations, the United States is by far the best that has ever been. It is the best that there is. I honestly believe that we are living in a golden age that will be long remebered as such.
Having siad this though, we must remember that we ARE in fact an earthly kingdom. We are far from being even a shadow of God's kingdom. Much of what people see as a blessing has turned out the be a curse for many others. If this were a nation establish by the ONE TRUE KING it would be a much different and much better place. Until his return and he establishes his kingdom we have something that is pretty darn good.
It is funny, Jesus said that his kingdom is not of this world. Yet, for the past 1700 years people have been trying to build his kingdom here on earth. All I want to know is when has a Christian church and a earthly kingdom merged without it being a detriment to both.
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Key Of David
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I am confused as to your ranting and then saying we are the greatest. We are not a kingdom and I don't know where you get that we are. The one true kingdom on earth is ruled by a descendent of King David so I don't think pledging allegiance to the UK is off the mark either. Like I said its according to what you believe....but whatever you believe...you cannot keep people from freely professing and expressing this. Sometimes this means pledging ones allegiance to the best nation of people God has raised up on this earth.
We are not a kingdom and I don't know where you get that we are. The one true kingdom on earth is ruled by a descendent of King David so I don't think pledging allegiance to the UK is off the mark either. Like I said its according to what you believe....but whatever you believe...you cannot keep people from freely professing and expressing this. Sometimes this means pledging ones allegiance to the best nation of people God has raised up on this earth.
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LiberalChristian
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First, I am not saying we are a terrible country. Actually, as I said, we are a pretty great country. I think it is over-reaching to suggest that the US is somehow special and above the other nations is a reach.
Second, and this is the most important issue, when you pledge allegiance to the US you are not just standing up and saying that this is a real peachy place to live. You are taking a loyalty oath. My rant was to point out that there were and are many things that are being done by the US that are unjust. If you take the loyalty oath you are bound to the US. So many Christians I know fear the direction in which this country is headed. If the worse of their nightmares were to come true and the nation were to take a significant turn away from God, you would be bound by your oath to remain loyal. My problem is not the specific oath to the US, but the idea that we as Christians are taking an oath to an earthly nation.
By the way, I am not sure I understand your disctinction between a nation and a kingdom? What is the significance as it relates to this conversation.
Second, and this is the most important issue, when you pledge allegiance to the US you are not just standing up and saying that this is a real peachy place to live. You are taking a loyalty oath. My rant was to point out that there were and are many things that are being done by the US that are unjust. If you take the loyalty oath you are bound to the US. So many Christians I know fear the direction in which this country is headed. If the worse of their nightmares were to come true and the nation were to take a significant turn away from God, you would be bound by your oath to remain loyal. My problem is not the specific oath to the US, but the idea that we as Christians are taking an oath to an earthly nation.
By the way, I am not sure I understand your disctinction between a nation and a kingdom? What is the significance as it relates to this conversation.
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Key Of David
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Sounds an awful lot like the nervous groom before marrying the bride to me. Fear of commitment? If you don't like the way your wife is headed....stop her by telling her, convincing her, reasoning with her, etc. Don't just sit and fear and give up. This country was meant to be lived in, loved, appreciated, and USED. Use your freedom to say what you want or express your opinions, etc. You as a Christian have an obligation to this anyway...as I'm sure you know.LiberalChristian said:
I'm simply baffled at your assertion that this is a kingdom when it is not. We have no king....not unlike Israel. We started out with the number 13, not unlike Israel. This grew into 15 states, and then 48, not unlike the cities the Levites inhabited. My point is that what God raises up, let no man tear down. The only "bad" that can come out of this country is for it to come from doubt, fear, lack of faith, etc. Sure we're not perfect, but neither was Israel. He still delivered them.....
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the nly bad thing that came out of this country are the slaughtering of the indians, spanish american war, world war 1, Veitnam, Cambodia, Iraq1, iraq2 and other unjustices are amazin country has preformed...
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Key Of David
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Iraq1 and Iraq2? I guess you forgot about the bloody civil war that Iraq fought which gave them their name? They used to be Persia...who used to be Babylon. I guess you forgot about what Babylon did to my people Israel? Let's forget about Assyria and their modern day nations...Germany etc. They can't be any worse....no lets all band up against who THESE poor innocent people did...after all they committed much less evil then we did.....right?Mr.Pious said:
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LiberalChristian
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Key Of David said:Sounds an awful lot like the nervous groom before marrying the bride to me. Fear of commitment? If you don't like the way your wife is headed....stop her by telling her, convincing her, reasoning with her, etc. Don't just sit and fear and give up. This country was meant to be lived in, loved, appreciated, and USED. Use your freedom to say what you want or express your opinions, etc. You as a Christian have an obligation to this anyway...as I'm sure you know.
You raise an excellent point. It is like taking marriage vows, and that is just my point. As a Christian I am a member of the body of Christ, ie the bride of Christ. I have already taken my marriage vows. I cannot take vows to another bride, an earthly nation. I have no problem when a non-Christian voluntarily takes the oath. They are not bound to the Kingdom of God. We cannot serve both the Kingdom of God and an earthly nation that at times deviates from God's will.
I am not sure where I have asserted that we are a kingdom. I assume that by your comments that you are saying that because we do not have a king we are not a kingdom. Is that correct? I don't have a problem with such a distinction. I am asking what is the SUBSTANTIVE difference between the two. How does it relate to the issue at hand? I don't understand your point.Key Of David said:
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Palatka44 said:If a banner of a nation that owes it's origin to allmighty God is displayed isn't it therefore appropriate to acknowledge our alliegence to it's service?
We should do well to remember the words of both Peter and Paul.
2 Peter 2:9,10
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
Now Paul;
Romans 13:1-6
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
And finaly;
Romans 13:7
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
ONE NATION INDIVISIBLE, A history lesson.
I am sending this short history in the hopes that it will bring a better understanding that it is the codification into law that many have objection to, and it is only been in the last 49 years that this was made into a struggle. Many lives were lost in holding this union, this republic together under the motto of the Union. E PLURIBUS UNUM (Out of Many, One) Why did our founding Fathers choose these words? Why did they insist on The Bill of Rights? Or no religious test!
It is simple, First and foremost many of them were Christian, and understood the words of Christ.
NO OATHS
MATTHEW 5.33 Again, ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 but I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by the heaven, for it is the throne of God; 35 nor by the earth, for it is the footstool of his feet; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, for thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your speech be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: and whatsoever is more than these is of the evil one.
NO PRARE IN PUBLIC OR SCHOOLS
MATTHEW 6.5 And when ye pray, ye shall not be as the hypocrites: for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues* and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have received their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thine inner chamber, and having shut thy door, pray to thy Father who is in secret, and thy Father who seeth in secret shall recompense thee. 7 And in praying use not vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
Synagogue; a place of religious study: (ie. School)
SEPRATION OF CHUCH AND STATE
MATTHEW 22.18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why make ye trial of me, ye hypocrites? 19 Show me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a denarius. 20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? 21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. 22 And when they heard it, they marvelled, and left him, and went away.
Remember I am not calling you a hypocrite, this is what Christ is saying.
The pledge was penned by a Christian minister, for all Americans. It was his love of country that moved him to create this gift.
When Congress made into law a change, it forgot the words of our founding fathers, E Pluribus Unum, and the wounds of a divided Nation freshly bound up in the words, One Nation Indivisible. This is the True traditions of The United States. Yet, Congress chose to divide us by using Gods name in an official Oath. And the Christian members of Congress, in their piety! Rush to the fore to be seen by men, and forgetting the words of Christ, yelled UNDER GOD!
Yes Taking the phrase out would produce the same situation we have now in day-to-day life. Those who like the phrase will continue to say it, and those who don't, won't say it. but We would be freer too say them or not. It is sad that the government has slowly been taking out common sense and our unity from our lives.
E PLURIBUS UNUM (Out of many, One) was our nations motto, a gift from our founding fathers, not some atheistic left-wing slogan. ONE NATION INDIVISIBLE, was our pledge though two World Wars and Korea. The first war fought UNDER GOD and IN GOD WE TRUST, was Vietnam. (look how well that turned out) Had congress of the 1950s simply translated Our motto Out of many, One perhaps we would have a little more unity today.
The First Amendments Religion Clauses mean that religious beliefs and religious expression are too precious to be either proscribed or prescribed by the State. The design of the Constitution is that preservation and transmission of religious beliefs and worship is a responsibility and a choice committed to the private sphere, which itself is promised freedom to pursue that mission. A state-created orthodoxy puts at grave risk that freedom of belief and conscience, which is the sole assurance that religious faith is real, not imposed.
What to most believers may seem nothing more than a reasonable request that the nonbeliever respect their religious practices, when religious language in used in an official document it may appear to the nonbeliever or dissenter to be an attempt to employ the machinery of the State to enforce a religious orthodoxy.
Our Constitution is the very word that binds us as a nation and it is our word and sacred honor that compels us, freely, to defend those words. It is the contract that we as Americans are born into. A union, joined from all nation and beliefs.
Civil powers alone have been granted to the government through the Constitution, and no one man or body of men, has authority to proscribe religion to the governed. That is why the Constitution has No religious test, no law respecting an establishment of religion.
The question is simple, Is our faith safer in our own hands where the constitution has placed it, or in the hands of the government, where the constitution has forbidden it.
What to most believers may seem nothing more than a reasonable request that the nonbeliever respect their religious practices, when religious language in used in an official document it may appear to the nonbeliever or dissenter to be an attempt to employ the machinery of the State to enforce a religious orthodoxy A state-created orthodoxy puts at grave risk that freedom of belief and conscience, which is the sole assurance that religious faith is real, not imposed.
Please dont be judgmental, We all love our country, dont tell us where to live, learn to live with us, We are, Out of many, One nation indivisible.
E PLURIBUS UNUM!
Following is a history of religious freedom through the Constitution, the Congress, the Supreme Court, and the United States Coast Guard (bold is for emphases only - italics are mine.)
The right of religious and conscience has always existed and has been confirmed many times over the history of the United States, beginning with the constitution, which is very clear in article VI.
Article VI; par. 3
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned; and the members of the several states legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by an oath or affirmation to support and defend this Constriction; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, under the United States.
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
It is important to note that the First Amendment is not talking about A religion or one religion. The key phrase makes exacting use of the word; of; (a preposition meaning; from: distinguish by: because of: made or written by: made with, being or containing: belonging to or connected with: about: concerning: taken from: Derived from a whole, part of: out of). an establishment of religion,
Just six years later Congress reaffirmed the establishment clause of the first amendment through the Treaty of Tripoli. This is connected to the Constitution through Article six.
Article VI par; 2
This Constitution, and the laws of the united States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.
1797 Treaty of Tripoli January 4, 1797
Article 11 As the government of the united States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,--as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,--and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption
From The Journal of the Executive Proceedings of the United States Senate (recorded in the official treaty book) for the use of the Senate. The unanimous vote and the wide reprinting of the words in the press of 1797, suggests that the idea that the government was not a Christian one was widely and easily accepted at the time.
Substantive Due Process: connected through the 14th Amendment by the US Supreme Court.
The Lemon Test
Based on the 1971 case of Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602, 612-13 the Court will rule a practice unconstitutional if:
1. It lacks any secular purpose. That is, if the practice lacks any non-religious purpose. 2. The practice either promotes or inhibits religion.
3. Or the practice excessively (in the Courts opinion) involves government with a religion.
The Coercion Test
Based on the 1992 case of Lee v. Weisman, 505 U.S. 577 the religious practice is examined to see to what extent, if any, pressure is applied to force or coerce individuals to participate.
The Court has defined that Unconstitutional coercion occurs when: (1) the government directs (2) a formal religious exercise (3) in such a way as to oblige the participation of objectors.
The Endorsement Test
Finally, drawing from the 1989case of Allegheny County v. ACLU, 492 U.S. 573 the practice is examined to see if it unconstitutionally endorses religion by conveying a message that religion is favored, preferred, or promoted over other beliefs.
The Court concluded that: Id. At 634 n.14 West Virginia Board of Education V. Barnett 1943
If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. The rights of free exercise of religion are beyond the reach of majorities, they may not be submitted to a vote and they depend on the outcome of no election.
Neutral: Ruling on Section 6(j) for Conscientious objector status (wies V US)
Found section 6(j) contravenes the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment by exempting those whose conscientious objector claims are founded on a theistic belief, while not exempting those whose claims are based on a secular belief. To comport with that clause an exemption must be neutral and include those whose belief emanates from a purely moral, ethical,
As PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES Mr. Jefferson had this to say.
It is proposed that I should recommend, not prescribe, a day of fasting and prayer. That is, that I should indirectly assume to the United States an authority over religious exercised which the Constitutions has directly precluded them form. It must be meant, too, that this recommendation is to carry some authority and to be sanctioned by some penalty on those who disregard it; not indeed of fine and imprisonment, but of some degree of proscription, perhaps in public opinion. And does the change in the nature of the penalty make the recommendation less a law of conduct for those to whom it is directed? Civil powers alone have been given to the President of the United States, and no authority to direct the religious exercises of his constituents.-- this right can never be safer than in their own hands where the Constitution has deposited it
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LiberalChristian
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Yes, it was penned by a Christian minister, but that is not the full story. HE was a socialist and was disillusioned with the church. At approxmately the time he wrote the oath he left the church never to return.E PLURIBUS UNUM said:
When Congress added "under God," the family of the author, who was dead at this point, objected to the addition.
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Key Of David
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Out of Many, One.....pertains to Israel. Out of many tribes (13) you get one Israel. This also pertains to all the other tribes and peoples and nations who have come to know this as their inherited land...The Promised Land of the last days.
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LiberalChristian said:
I must agree with you. He became very disillusioned with the church, and its infringement on the government at this time many bills were introduced in congress to make God or Christ the highest law or authority of the land. As well as a movement to control individual interpretations of the bible. This went against his very notion of freedom that he left the Church.
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LiberalChristian
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I gotta ask you buddy, where do you come up with this stuff?Key Of David said:
How to you get that this is the "Promised Land of The Last Days?"
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LiberalChristian
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I have definitively resolved the issue on whether or not Christians should take the loyalty oath known as the Pledge of Allegiance.
James 5:12 (NIV) Above all, my brothers, do not swear not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. Let your Yes be yes and your No, no, or you will be condemned.
Nothing more needs to be said folks. This issue is resolved.
James 5:12 (NIV) Above all, my brothers, do not swear not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. Let your Yes be yes and your No, no, or you will be condemned.
Nothing more needs to be said folks. This issue is resolved.
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Key Of David said:
Actually, the original phase come from (I kid you not!) an ode to a roman salad! (I know, but here me out)
The members on the committee on the seal for the United States, were not having much luck finding just the right motto. Their first try Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God Did not go over well with congress! get rid of the fleeing Moses, and lose Franklins turkey!; find some thing that describes this New Union, this Unum.
So off they went looking for just the right phrase to describe this new union, (Unum). One of the members said the word reminded him of a very lovely poem that he had to say for his Latin class, many years ago, Ode to a roman salad, blending the many beautiful colors into one tasty bowl ( at the time it probably sounded very much like our new nation) They kick around some of the words, and the rest is history! ( by the way they submitted this motto with a turkey again, congress kept the motto, throw out the turkey)!
E PLURIBUS UNUM
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