What does the US "Pledge of Allegiance" mean to you?

TLGitom

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Pledge of Allegiance


In light of the recent appeals court ruling in California, with
respect to the Pledge of Allegiance, the following
recollection from Senator John McCain is very appropriate:.

"The Pledge of Allegiance" - Senator John McCain
As you may know, I spent five and one half years as a prisoner of
war during the Vietnam War. In the early years of
our imprisonment, the NVA kept us in solitary confinement or two

or three to a cell. In 1971 the NVA moved us from these conditions
of isolation into large rooms with as many as 30 to 40 men to a room.
This was,as you can imagine, a wonderful change and was a direct
result of the efforts of millions of Americans on
behalf of a few hundred POWs 10,000 miles from home.

One of the men who moved into my room was
a young man named Mike Christian.
Mike came from a small town near
Selma, Alabama.
He didn't wear a pair of shoes until he was 13 years old.

At 17, he enlisted in the US Navy. He later earned a
commission by going to
OfficerTraining School.
Then he became a Naval Flight Officer and was shot down and
captured in 1967. Mike had a keen and deep appreciation of the
opportunities this country and our military
provide for people who want to work and want to succeed.
As part of the change in treatment, the Vietnamese allowed some
prisoners to receive packages from home. In some of these packages were handkerchiefs, scarves and other items of clothing.
Mike got himself a bamboo needle. Over a period of a couple of
months, he created an American flag and sewed on the inside of his shirt.

Every afternoon, before we had a bowl of soup, we would hang Mike's shirt on the wall of the cell and say the Pledge of Allegiance.
I know the Pledge of Allegiance may not seem the most important
part of our day now, but I can assure you that in that stark cell it was indeed the most important and meaningful event.


One day the Vietnamese searched our cell, as they did
periodically,and discovered Mike's shirt with the flag sewn inside,

and removed it.

That evening they returned, opened the door of the cell, and for
the benefit of all of us, beat Mike Christian severely for the next couple of hours.
Then, they opened the door of the cell
and threw him in. We cleaned him up as well as we could.
The cell in which we lived had a concrete slab in the middle on
which we slept. Four naked light bulbs hung in each corner of the room.
As I said, we tried to clean up Mike as well as we could.

After the excitement died down, I looked in the corner of the room, and sitting there beneath that dim light bulb with a piece
of red cloth, another shirt and his bamboo needle, was my friend, Mike Christian. He was sitting there with his eyes almost
shut from the beating he had received, making another American flag. He was not making the flag because it made Mike Christian feel better. He was making that flag because he knew how important it was to us to be able to Pledge our allegiance to our flag and country.


So the next time you say the Pledge of
Allegiance, you must never forget the sacrifice and courage that thousands of Americans have made to build our nation and promote freedom around the world.


You must remember our duty, our honor, and our country.
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the
United States of America
and to the republic for which it stands, one nation
under God, indivisible,with liberty and justice for all."
 

Palatka44

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When I pledge my allegiance To this flag I am acknowledgeing the sacrifice of the Patriots who have died for my freedom.

When I pledge my allegiance to the cross I acknowledge that while I was yet a sinner Christ died so I can be freed from the everlasting punnishment and by His resurrection gain eternal life with Him.
 
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I don't attend sports games or things of that nature, so I never have to say the pledge any longer since I am not in school.

When I was in school, it didn't mean anything to me. It was a chore -- something we all had to do to start the day. They couldn't have a picked a worse time for students to say it either. No one is perky in the very morning and furthermore, no one is feeling patriotic in the morning. I have the PoA memorized, as well the the one for the Texas flag. Neither means much to me. It doesn't make me think of veterans or the founding fathers or the Liberty Bell or anything like that. I probably also have portions of the Gettyburg Address memorized as well.

I wrote this article for my underground newspaper in high school, actually, in response to this new rule the district made up. The new rule was that everyone had to stand for the pledge, and those walking in the halls were expected to stop, and I'm sure that those who were on the toilet were expected to do their best hunched over stand that they could muster. The Jehovah's Witnesses were forced to stand up as well, though they didn't have to place their hand over their heart or speak it. The rule came into play after 9-11, so I guess they thought it was a good idea to forcefully instill an ersatz patriotism.

The article I wrote basically said that it was ironic that we [the students] were being forced to salute the symbol which gives us the express right to not salute it. We are allowed as Americans to not say the pledge and remain free from criticism. On the other hand, if the pledge is not mandatory, as in cases with Jehovah's Witnesses and Quakers, why do we even have it? If something is not obligatory, that means it is optional. So why do we even have the pledge when it's not obligatory?

Well I'm rambling. The point was that the pledge doesn't really mean much to me. This of course has no bearing on my feelings about America -- because I love it.
 
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seebs

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To me, it means memory of teachers demanding that children nowhere near an age of accountability mouth oaths we could not mean anything by, in an effort to teach us early on that swearing by God's name means nothing.

At least, that's the effect it had. One can only presume that it's intentional.
 
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seebs

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Oh, and for the record, I am somewhat offended by the "under God" stuff. This was one nation, indivisible, until McCarthy divided it. I would rather that the official pledge of the country not contain a reminder of one of the most disgusting examples of abuse of God's name in a personal vendetta and power struggle that I can think of in living memory. Perhaps I'm naive.
 
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crazyfingers

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The pledge, prior to the addition of the "Under God" phrase in 1954 was an attempt get kids to make a pledge prior to the age of consent and to brainwash those school kids into believing that all people had equal liberty and justice even though that was far from the truth.



The addition of the "Under God" part was an unconstitutional attempt by the federal government to enlist the help of school teachers to teach to kids that a god exists and to exclude all nonmonotheists. It therefore became irreconcilably divisive.



"... one nation, under god, indivisible..." necessarily divides monotheists from nonmonotheists. It is internally divisive while saying that we are indivisible. What hypocrisy.

As a lifelong atheist, I do not recall having ever recited the pledge. I always refused to do so.

 
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Force

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I love the pledge, said it proudly every morning. And I love the national anthem...gives me goosebumps every time! (Although some people should be outlawed from singing it...lol :D ). I take great pride in being able to do these little things, and show respect for a great nation and a great deal of wonderful veterans who have sacrificed so much. People who talk and joke, or wont stand or the players who mouth off and dont put their hands over their hearts make me sick.
 
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crazyfingers

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Force said:
People who talk and joke, or wont stand or the players who mouth off and dont put their hands over their hearts make me sick.
Why should I stand to a pledge that tries to impose onto me a religious belief that I do not share? What's sickening is that some people would have me accept the idea that the government can tell me what beliefs I should have in regard to religion.
 
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Force

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crazyfingers said:
Why should I stand to a pledge that tries to impose onto me a religious belief that I do not share? What's sickening is that some people would have me accept the idea that the government can tell me what beliefs I should have in regard to religion.
First of all you should give thanks to this great nation...because here you can worship whomever you please or not at all. No one is forcing you to be a Christian here, unlike the muslim nations or communist nations etc. who kill you for being something else. You do not have to hide to worship in any manner, all people are free here. Yet some still want to push the issue and get everything ok'd except for Christianity.......great agenda! Whether you accept it or want to live in denial this country was founded upon Judeo-Christian beliefs, but in that it is not imposed. No one is forcing you to be a Christian but that is our heritage.

And the national anthem does not mention God so whats your excuse for not respecting that? Didnt think you had one. Since at sports games we dont recite the pledge but do sing the national anthem.

The nice thing about this FREE country is you are free to leave any time you want if you think you can find something better...instead of being a big whiner.
 
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Jacob4Jesus

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Generally, I am supportive of complete seperation of church and state, but the whole arguement over the pledge seems kinda pointless to me. Supreme Court Decisions have already stated that you don't have to recite the pledge if you don't want to. Atheists then say that they should not have to listen to it because it states 'under God" in it. I personally think that's a little silly, because it's not necessarily hurting anyone. I agree that it shouldn't be in there, but it's being blown out of proportion.

Things are never going to be 100% pleasing to anyone. Christians who believe in creation could argue that it's unfair that they have to learn about evolution in school. They have to hear it, but doesn't mean they have to believe it. I agree with people fighting to not have to say certain ideas, but when people start complaining about not having to hear things, that's a bit absurd.

As far as my feelings about the pledge, the fact that I said it every morning for so many years, it actually lost any meaning to me. It was done for redundancy sake, not for anything else. It wasn't until I was much older than I even started to think about it. I love this country and always will, and I would never betray it. I don't need some redundant pledge written by someone else to confirm that though. :)
 
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crazyfingers

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Force said:
First of all you should give thanks to this great nation...because here you can worship whomever you please or not at all. No one is forcing you to be a Christian here, unlike the muslim nations or communist nations etc. who kill you for being something else. You do not have to hide to worship in any manner, all people are free here. Yet some still want to push the issue and get everything ok'd except for Christianity.......great agenda!
And so I should respect attempts by the government to tell me what I should believe on issues of religion? Your argument does not compute.




Whether you accept it or want to live in denial this country was founded upon Judeo-Christian beliefs, but in that it is not imposed. No one is forcing you to be a Christian but that is our heritage.
Please show me what Judeo-Xian principles this country is founded upon.

That Xians made up the majoprity of the population when it was founded does not mean that the country is founded on Xian beliefs.



And the national anthem does not mention God so whats your excuse for not respecting that? Didnt think you had one. Since at sports games we dont recite the pledge but do sing the national anthem.
Yes it mentions god. Here


[size=+1]"Oh thus be it e'er when free men shall stand[/size][size=+1]Between their lov'd homes and war's desolation![/size][size=+1]Blest with vict'ry and peace, may the heav'n rescued land [/size][size=+1]Praise the Pow'r that has made and presrv'd us a nation[/size][size=+1]And conquer we must when our cause is just[/size][size=+1]And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."[/size][size=+1]And the Star-Spangled Banner in triumph shall wave[/size][size=+1]O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave."[/size]

In any case I have not mentioned that national anthem and I have yet to express an opinion on it. Why do you assume that you know what I think of the national anthem?

The nice thing about this FREE country is you are free to leave any time you want if you think you can find something better...instead of being a big whiner.
Typical ending argument. Love it or leave it?

I'd prefer to fix it thanks. One place to start is by repealing the 1954 law that added religious coersion to the pledge.
 
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crazyfingers

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Jacob4Jesus said:
Generally, I am supportive of complete seperation of church and state, but the whole arguement over the pledge seems kinda pointless to me. Supreme Court Decisions have already stated that you don't have to recite the pledge if you don't want to. Atheists then say that they should not have to listen to it because it states 'under God" in it.
That is not my argument. When the school teacher recites the pledge to the class, that teacher is teaching that a god exists. Public schools have no business teaching their students that a god exists. But that is in fact what is happening.

Every day in school the teacher is telling my two second graders that a god exists.
 
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Palatka44

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crazyfingers said:
That is not my argument. When the school teacher recites the pledge to the class, that teacher is teaching that a god exists. Public schools have no business teaching their students that a god exists. But that is in fact what is happening.

Every day in school the teacher is telling my two second graders that a god exists.
Praises be to God the allmighty, they now have a chance to escape eternal judgement. Remember Madelyn O'Hare? Her son is now an evangelist. BTW, why do athiest resist so adamantly against anything pointing to God? It would seeem to me that they should care less.
 
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Jacob4Jesus

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crazyfingers said:
That is not my argument. When the school teacher recites the pledge to the class, that teacher is teaching that a god exists. Public schools have no business teaching their students that a god exists. But that is in fact what is happening.

Every day in school the teacher is telling my two second graders that a god exists.
I have to disagree with that. I agree that I feel that the "under God' should be taken out, but I don't think that having it in there is necessarily 'hurting' anyone. That's my own personal feelings. I think my reverse analogy works just as well, though.
 
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crazyfingers

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Jacob4Jesus said:
I have to disagree with that. I agree that I feel that the "under God' should be taken out, but I don't think that having it in there is necessarily 'hurting' anyone. That's my own personal feelings. I think my reverse analogy works just as well, though.
Ask yourself the opposite. If the pledge said "one nation under no god", wouldn't the teacher teaching that to the students violate the rights of parents who want to teach theri kids that a god exists?
 
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Palatka44 said:
Praises be to God the allmighty, they now have a chance to escape eternal judgement. Remember Madelyn O'Hare? Her son is now an evangelist.
And this has what to do about anything? :scratch:


BTW, why do athiest resist so adamantly against anything pointing to God? It would seeem to me that they should care less.
That's an overly general statement to the point of being a misrepresentation. The issue is government extablishment of religion. Please don't simply ignore the constitution or an a concern that is based on the constitution.
 
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Jacob4Jesus

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crazyfingers said:
Ask yourself the opposite. If the pledge said "one nation under no god", wouldn't the teacher teaching that to the students violate the rights of parents who want to teach theri kids that a god exists?
Please reread my statment. I said that I agree with you that it should be taken out. I have stated that twice.

I said my own personal opinion is that I don't think it is harming anyone. To answer your question though, when schools teach evolution (which I also believe in), then creationists are basically being told that their beliefs are incorrect as well. It's a two way street, and atheists are not going to have everything to suit their own beliefs. It's my own personal opinion and nothing you will say will change that. BUT, if you read my statements, I am 100% in support of it being removed. Then again, I also think that creationist children should be allowed to sit out on the evolution portion of their science class. But in essence, not allowing that or allowing children to hear 'under God' in the pledge, I don't believe is necessarily hurting anyone. The thing about me, though, is that I don't base political beliefs off of my own personal beliefs, that would be unfair. So even though I do not think it's hurting anyone, I agree that it should be removed.
 
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crazyfingers

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Jacob4Jesus said:
Please reread my statment. I said that I agree with you that it should be taken out. I have stated that twice.
I have noted that twice you have said that. I'm glad that it's your position.

But I still disagree with your opinion that having it there is harmless. I believe that it does harm. I also believe it violates the rights of the students when the government teaches them that a god exists and I believe that it violates the rights of the partents. The governemnt is barred from teaching a religious point of view and so the people have the right to expect that it won't. Government is violating that right and so that is harm.
 
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Jacob4Jesus

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crazyfingers said:
I have noted that twice you have said that. I'm glad that it's your position.

But I still disagree with your opinion that having it there is harmless. I believe that it does harm. I also believe it violates the rights of the students when the government teaches them that a god exists and I believe that it violates the rights of the partents. The governemnt is barred from teaching a religious point of view and so the people have the right to expect that it won't. Government is violating that right and so that is harm.
Which is fine, and I respect your opinion. It's kinda pointless to argue about opinions, though. But should it really matter what my opinion is, as long as I agree with you, that it should be removed?
 
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Jacob4Jesus said:
Which is fine, and I respect your opinion. It's kinda pointless to argue about opinions, though. But should it really matter what my opinion is, as long as I agree with you, that it should be removed?
From your point of view probably not. But I post as much for the benefit of others who are reading this topic and some would say that if there is no harm then why get rid of it. I just want to point out that there is, in my opinion, harm to leaving it in there.
 
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