What does the book of Revelation “reveal” ?

claninja

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One other thing I find interesting is that some people use current news events in an attempt to show some portion of scripture being fulfilled or possibly fulfilled. I rarely see these same people even consider the news of the first century, Josephus for example, even though this news aligned with many of the visions and in multiple ways.

And that’s the guessing game that’s been played for the last 2000 years by hyper futurists. If revelation can’t be about 70ad, and scripture can’t be used to interpret scripture, then people will look at all kinds of current events and make predictions about what revelation is supposed to be prophesying/revealing. So far this has a 100% failure rate, and yet for some reason they just continue to push the goal posts back yet anyways….
 
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Douggg

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Again, your argument was that revelation has hundreds of different interpretations interpretations because Christians universally don’t understand Judaisms belief of the messiah. No need to shift to anything else not related to the OP. If your would like to discuss the “final redemption”
That Judaism believes in, start your own thread.
In your post #8 in this thread you asked me for "evidence". I am giving you evidence - at your request.

But I will move on, and let the evidence speak for itself.
 
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DavidPT

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Well I don’t think Revelation 6:9-11 is referring to all martyrs through out all of history. I think it’s referring to those who were killed by their own brethren, as seen in Matthew 10:21-23.


21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. 22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. 23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

I think this is what “should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled” is referring to.

Matthew 10:21-23 has to fit something, no doubt. Whether it fits the brethren that are martyred during the little season involving the 5th seal, maybe it can, maybe it can't. But if it can, the events involving the 6th seal still give us the timing of when this little season ends.

Since a little season has to have an end eventually, and that the 6th seal reveals it is then time for God to avenge the martyrs meant in the 5th seal, it should be pretty safe to assume that the little season has ended when the events involving the 6th seal begin. Which tells me, though maybe not you as well, that no more saints will ever be martyred again, which then means we are at the end of this age as of the 6th seal, not still in the first century instead.

But let me guess, though. When God avenges them via the 6th seal events, you apply that to 70 AD, right? If so, I don't see that remotely making sense, based on the fact, if true, this would mean saints are still being martyred after this little season is finished. The ones being martyred during this little season, per my view of things, is pertaining to those martyred for not not worshiping the beast, nor it's image, after the beast rises out of the pit, and a 2nd one rises out of the earth, and that the following below is the fulfillment of this little season, meaning there will be no more martyrs ever again at this point.

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.


And take note what follows this, the vials of wrath, the same wrath that begins as of the 6th seal. That means these recorded in Revelation 15:2 are meaning their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, that this has now been fulfilled at this point, and the fact the vials of wrath follow, prove this. How anyone can reasonably apply any of the vials of wrath to that of the first century is never going to make any sense to me since that is not where any of the vials of wrath fit. The vials of wrath fit after there are no more saints being martyred ever again.
 
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DavidPT

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A lot of what you said the book revelation reveals or uncovers is already taught by Paul in his epistles. So I don’t think that’s necessarily what revelation is “revealing” or “uncovering”.

What about the last trump, for example? Doesn't Revelation reveal that it is the 7th trumpet? How would we have ever known that outside of Revelation? Paul never said the last trump is the 7th trumpet, yet it obviously has to be since there is zero mention of any more trumpets after that of the 7th trumpet.
 
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timothyu

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God ordained one church to match one locality whether we like it or not, whether we think it is practical or not.
Yes and it was to remain a movement of the Kingdom, not become yet another institution, like everything else man creates built upon our own image rather than God's.
 
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oikonomia

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Yes and it was to remain a movement of the Kingdom, not become yet another institution, like everything else man creates built upon our own image rather than God's.

Yes. And as any genuine move of the Holy Spirit, His move will suffer good report and bad report.
 
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grafted branch

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The vials of wrath fit after there are no more saints being martyred ever again.
I think where we differ is you’re interpreting those in Revelation 6:9-11 as martyrs without any other conditions applied. In verse 10 they are asking for their blood to be avenged on them that dwell <2730> on the earth. I did a quick search on this and it doesn’t appear that dead people are referred to as dwelling on the earth.

Scripture does support the idea that all the righteous blood shed will come upon Jerusalem. It would be difficult, due to lack of scriptural support, to accept that righteous blood is being avenged on only those who are left alive at some future date when the bowls of wrath begin to be poured out.

Again, if the question asked in Revelation 6:10 is by those who are martyred after a future beast has come, why is it they have to ask the question to begin with? All the martyrs would know the answer, are they forced to ask the question, is there no free will, did they forget what Revelation 6:10 says, do they think God Will change his mind and give some other answer than the one in Revelation 6:10?

I would say once a person reads Revelation 6:9-11, it becomes impossible for it to be a future event for that person. Since those killed in Revelation 6:9-11 are believers and are killed because of their testimony and the word of God, it’s impossible for it to be too far future of the date Revelation was written.
 
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grafted branch

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In your post #8 in this thread you asked me for "evidence". I am giving you evidence - at your request.

But I will move on, and let the evidence speak for itself.
Doug, your strategy of examining Jews, who are deceived from believing Jesus is the Messiah, and using their criteria of who Messiah will be to interpret the book of Revelation seems to be questionable to some of us.

Do you know of an example in scripture where this method of interpretation is used? That is using the wisdom of unbelievers to interpret scripture?
 
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DavidPT

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I think where we differ is you’re interpreting those in Revelation 6:9-11 as martyrs without any other conditions applied. In verse 10 they are asking for their blood to be avenged on them that dwell <2730> on the earth. I did a quick search on this and it doesn’t appear that dead people are referred to as dwelling on the earth.

I get your point here, though this has never crossed my mind before, not until you pointed it out here.

But aren't you arguing that the ones crying out for vengeance that are under the altar, this is meaning saints from OT times? If so, clearly, those responsible for murdering any of them, they wouldn't still be dwelling on the earth among the living. How do we square these things then? Maybe by taking these that are dwelling on the earth to be meaning a certain type of ppl, the same type of ppl that murdered saints in OT times, and that continue to murder saints in our day and time. And since not everyone dwelling on the earth is that type of person, it makes even more sense to maybe apply it in this manner. Therefore, it doesn't matter if some of the murderers are no longer alive when these martyrs cry out for vengeance, the type of ppl that do things like this, they are still dwelling on the earth. It's not like they went extinct or something.
 
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Douggg

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Doug, your strategy of examining Jews, who are deceived from believing Jesus is the Messiah, and using their criteria of who Messiah will be to interpret the book of Revelation seems to be questionable to some of us.

Do you know of an example in scripture where this method of interpretation is used? That is using the wisdom of unbelievers to interpret scripture?
I don't know if this is a fitting answer to your question, but....

If you go to Ezekiel 39, in the text of verse 21-29, it is Jesus Himself speaking in the text. It does not say Jesus speaking in the text, but from the context it is evident that it is Him.

The Jews, currently unbelievers, don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah, nor that Jesus is God Himself, i.e. coming forth from God in the concept of the Trinity.

In verses 21-29, Jesus is looking back over the past 2000 years, and recollecting his relationship to the Jews. Jesus has just executed judgment on the wicked at the Armageddon event in verses 17-20.


17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.

20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD. [Armageddon, corresponds to Revelation 19:17-18)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen [Jesus speaking having returned to earth], and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward. [this is the change from what the Jews believe about Jesus, currently]

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me [the trespass is that the Jews rejected Jesus as their messiah, and agreed to him being crucified], therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. [2000 years of periodic persecution of the Jews in their time in the nations]

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

26 After that they have borne their shame [when the Jews finally turn to Jesus and recognize Him for who He is] , and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; [the Jews returned to the land in the end times generation, 1948, 1967]

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God [again, the Jews will finally recognize that Jesus is the LORD come in the flesh. It will happen mid-way through the 70th week, in Revelation 12:10], which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.[not leaving any more of the house of Israel in the nations, is in Matthew 24:31, the gathering of the elect. Some of the wording in Matthew 24:31 is the same as in Deuteronomy 30:1-6 of a promise that God made to them when they return from their waywardness]

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ezekiel 39 is such a critical chapter to the end times timeline. Gog/Magog event. Then the seven years that follow - which will be the 70th week of Daniel 9, and the 7 years in Revelation. Then Armageddon in verses 17-20. And Jesus speaking in the text in verses 21-29 having returned to this earth, recollecting all that took place in regards to the Jews from His first coming, to His second coming, and the 2000 years in between.
 
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claninja

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What about the last trump, for example? Doesn't Revelation reveal that it is the 7th trumpet? How would we have ever known that outside of Revelation? Paul never said the last trump is the 7th trumpet, yet it obviously has to be since there is zero mention of any more trumpets after that of the 7th trumpet.

I can absolutely agree that it’s possib revelation reveals that the last trumpet is the seventh trumpet.

I would also the posit the argument that revelation also reveals the great city/Babylon the harlot, that is destroyed by the beast, is apostate israel, as both are charged with the righteous blood shed of the saints and prophets.

I would also posit the argument that many of the events of revelation were revealed as near in time to John.
 
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claninja

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I get your point here, though this has never crossed my mind before, not until you pointed it out here.

But aren't you arguing that the ones crying out for vengeance that are under the altar, this is meaning saints from OT times? If so, clearly, those responsible for murdering any of them, they wouldn't still be dwelling on the earth among the living. How do we square these things then? Maybe by taking these that are dwelling on the earth to be meaning a certain type of ppl, the same type of ppl that murdered saints in OT times, and that continue to murder saints in our day and time. And since not everyone dwelling on the earth is that type of person, it makes even more sense to maybe apply it in this manner. Therefore, it doesn't matter if some of the murderers are no longer alive when these martyrs cry out for vengeance, the type of ppl that do things like this, they still are dwelling on the earth. It's not like they went extinct or something.

Jesus literally charges apostate israel with all the righteous blood shed:

matthew 23:35-36 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Luke 11:50 50As a result, this generation will be charged with the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the foundation of the world,

Jesus literally says the destruction of Jerusalem = the days of vengeance to FULFILL ALL THAT IS WRITTEN, and wrath on this people.

Luke 21:22-23
22For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

23How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath against this people.

I understand you presuppose that revelation is talking about all of history until the end of the world, and therefore can’t be about what Jesus said to first century apostate Israel. I would argue this then leads to all kinds of wrong interpretations of Babylon with no verifiable evidence: USA, Russia, the pope, Islam, etc, etc….

However, I would challenge you to remove that presupposition and maybe see that revelation is simply talking about what Jesus said to first century apostate Israel, just in an apocalyptic/symbolic vision, employing world ending language, but isn’t literally about the entire world, similar to the OT oracles.
 
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DavidPT

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Ezekiel 39 is such a critical chapter to the end times timeline. Gog/Magog event. Then the seven years that follow - which will be the 70th week of Daniel 9, and the 7 years in Revelation. Then Armageddon in verses 17-20. And Jesus speaking in the text in verses 21-29 having returned to this earth, recollecting all that took place in regards to the Jews from His first coming, to His second coming, and the 2000 years in between.

Yet, what is recorded in Ezekiel 39 involves only one battle not 2 different battles at different times. But, to debate that in here would be getting way off topic, IMO. Therefore, I'm not mentioning it in order to debate it in here, I'm mentioning it because it debunks some of what you are arguing if I am correct that ch 39 involves only one battle, not two or more instead.
 
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grafted branch

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Jesus literally charges apostate israel with all the righteous blood shed:

matthew 23:35-36 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Luke 11:50 50As a result, this generation will be charged with the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the foundation of the world,

Jesus literally says the destruction of Jerusalem = the days of vengeance to FULFILL ALL THAT IS WRITTEN, and wrath on this people.

Luke 21:22-23
22For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

23How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath against this people.

I understand you presuppose that revelation is talking about all of history until the end of the world, and therefore can’t be about what Jesus said to first century apostate Israel. I would argue this then leads to all kinds of wrong interpretations of Babylon with no verifiable evidence: USA, Russia, the pope, Islam, etc, etc….

However, I would challenge you to remove that presupposition and maybe see that revelation is simply talking about what Jesus said to first century apostate Israel, just in an apocalyptic/symbolic vision, employing world ending language, but isn’t literally about the entire world, similar to the OT oracles.
Completely agree, it’s difficult to understand exactly why all the righteous blood is charged to apostate Israel but that’s what it says.
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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Since revelation is mostly symbolic/apocalyptic visions, how is that a “revealing” or “uncovering”?
Because the big picture that Revelation is part of is prophecy that the Bible has already interpreted. Revelation adds more detail to that big picture. It was practical because they were living in the time of the last of the four empires prophesied in the Bible that was to be followed by a promised age of a free world filled with the knowledge of God. They were hearing all kinds of prophecy from the Holy Spirit of the end times of their age and no doubt wondering if the the promised age was right around the corner. Revelation told them it was not.
 
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DavidPT

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Completely agree, it’s difficult to understand exactly why all the righteous blood is charged to apostate Israel but that’s what it says.

Let's look at the text again.

Matthew 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.


What I see these being accountable for are all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, and those of them they shall kill and crucify; and those of them they shall scourge in their synagogues, and persecute them from city to city.

None of that takes into account any righteous blood shed upon the earth post 70 AD though, assuming 70 AD was the fulfillment of this in verse 35---That upon you may come.

Obviously, there is still righteous blood being shed upon the earth post 70 AD, and if these were already judged, so to speak, in 70 AD, we can't stop there and then insist end of story, nothing else to see here. And surely events recorded in Revelation don't end with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD either, assuming some of it even involves 70 AD, where I myself disagree that it does, then disregards the rest of human history post 70 AD to that of the 2nd coming, as if it is unimportant, but instead skips straight to the end, meaning Revelation 20:10-15.

IOW, something like this---Revelation records events involving the first century up until 70 AD, then is silent on human history post that time, then ends with what is recorded in Revelation 20:10-15. Yet, this is already proven wrong via Revelation 12 alone.

Clearly, though maybe not to everyone, that chapter spans events pertaining to the birth of Christ through that of the time of the beast in the final days of this age, meaning this in Revelation 12:17---and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Maybe it can be argued that this already began 2000 years ago, and maybe that is even true, but even so, the fact saints are still being persecuted, and some even martyred, today in some parts of this world, this still further proves, like I already indicated, that ch 12 alone spans at least 2000 years, maybe more, depending on when Christ actually returns.

Unless one wants to argue something preposterous, that no saints have been persecuted after 70 AD, that no righteous blood has been shed on the earth post 70 AD .
 
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claninja

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Let's look at the text again.

Matthew 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.


What I see these being accountable for are all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, and those of them they shall kill and crucify; and those of them they shall scourge in their synagogues, and persecute them from city to city.

None of that takes into account any righteous blood shed upon the earth post 70 AD though, assuming 70 AD was the fulfillment of this in verse 35---That upon you may come.

Obviously, there is still righteous blood being shed upon the earth post 70 AD, and if these were already judged, so to speak, in 70 AD, we can't stop there and then insist end of story, nothing else to see here. And surely events recorded in Revelation don't end with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD either, assuming some of it even involves 70 AD, where I myself disagree that it does, then disregards the rest of human history post 70 AD to that of the 2nd coming, as if it is unimportant, but instead skips straight to the end, meaning Revelation 20:10-15.

IOW, something like this---Revelation records events involving the first century up until 70 AD, then is silent on human history post that time, then ends with what is recorded in Revelation 20:10-15. Yet, this is already proven wrong via Revelation 12 alone.

Clearly, though maybe not to everyone, that chapter spans events pertaining to the birth of Christ through that of the time of the beast in the final days of this age, meaning this in Revelation 12:17---and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Maybe it can be argued that this already began 2000 years ago, and maybe that is even true, but even so, the fact saints are still being persecuted, and some even martyred, today in some parts of this world, this still further proves, like I already indicated, that ch 12 alone spans at least 2000 years, maybe more, depending on when Christ actually returns.

Unless one wants to argue something preposterous, that no saints have been persecuted after 70 AD, that no righteous blood has been shed on the earth post 70 AD .

I don’t think anyone would argue righteous bloodshed isn’t shed beyond 70ad. For example:

IF Babylon is first century apostate Israel, does the beast exist beyond her destruction? Yes, the beast is the agent of her destruction.

Does the beast persecute people of God? Yes, revelation 11 and revelation 13 claim it does.

Is the beast charged with all the righteous blood shed in revelation ? No, only Babylon is.

The point is that understanding the phrase “and in her was found all the righteous blood shed”, from revelation 18, shouldn’t be understood as beyond what Christ charged apostate Israel with in Matthew 23 and Luke 11.

If it is put beyond what Jesus charged first century apostate Israel with, revelation doesn’t reveal or uncover anything, and further invites speculations, guesses, and failed predictions. If it refers to first century apostate Israel, it reveals the time for her judgement was near.
 
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grafted branch

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Let's look at the text again.

Matthew 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.


What I see these being accountable for are all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, and those of them they shall kill and crucify; and those of them they shall scourge in their synagogues, and persecute them from city to city.

None of that takes into account any righteous blood shed upon the earth post 70 AD though, assuming 70 AD was the fulfillment of this in verse 35---That upon you may come.

Obviously, there is still righteous blood being shed upon the earth post 70 AD, and if these were already judged, so to speak, in 70 AD, we can't stop there and then insist end of story, nothing else to see here. And surely events recorded in Revelation don't end with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD either, assuming some of it even involves 70 AD, where I myself disagree that it does, then disregards the rest of human history post 70 AD to that of the 2nd coming, as if it is unimportant, but instead skips straight to the end, meaning Revelation 20:10-15.

IOW, something like this---Revelation records events involving the first century up until 70 AD, then is silent on human history post that time, then ends with what is recorded in Revelation 20:10-15. Yet, this is already proven wrong via Revelation 12 alone.

Clearly, though maybe not to everyone, that chapter spans events pertaining to the birth of Christ through that of the time of the beast in the final days of this age, meaning this in Revelation 12:17---and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Maybe it can be argued that this already began 2000 years ago, and maybe that is even true, but even so, the fact saints are still being persecuted, and some even martyred, today in some parts of this world, this still further proves, like I already indicated, that ch 12 alone spans at least 2000 years, maybe more, depending on when Christ actually returns.

Unless one wants to argue something preposterous, that no saints have been persecuted after 70 AD, that no righteous blood has been shed on the earth post 70 AD .
You’re absolutely correct in that believers have been martyred since 70AD and I will admit I don’t completely understand why it says all the righteous blood shed is charged to apostate Israel.

In Matthew 27:25 the people answered and said His blood be on us and our children. Believers (the righteous) are the body of Christ and since we died and were raised with Him, I think this is at least part of the reason why all the righteous blood shed comes on them.

I think another possibility is that apostate Israel is the scapegoat.

Who do you think all the righteous blood comes on?
 
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claninja

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You’re absolutely correct in that believers have been martyred since 70AD and I will admit I don’t completely understand why it says all the righteous blood shed is charged to apostate Israel.

In Matthew 27:25 the people answered and said His blood be on us and our children. Believers (the righteous) are the body of Christ and since we died and were raised with Him, I think this is at least part of the reason why all the righteous blood shed comes on them.

I think another possibility is that apostate Israel is the scapegoat.

Who do you think all the righteous blood comes on?

Very interesting point. IF “all the righteous blood shed” refers to all of it, even post 70ad until today, does that mean first century apostate israel was humanity’s “scapegoat”?
 
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Very interesting point. IF “all the righteous blood shed” refers to all of it, even post 70ad until today, does that mean first century apostate israel was humanity’s “scapegoat”?
I think that’s a possibility but I do hesitate to fully embrace the idea. I really need to study this idea more. I know people tend to associate the scapegoat with Christ but Christ wasn’t sent into the wilderness like the scapegoat was.

There is also this, in Leviticus 16:8 the lot for the scapegoat is for Azazel which people has attributed various meanings to. I’ve just not done enough work on this yet.
 
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