What does the book of Revelation “reveal” ?

keras

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Here is the conflict in your interpretation:
1Thessalonians 5:1-3 - Day of the Lord begins - Jews in the land
2Thessalonians2:4 - Day of the Lord begins - Christians in the land
The 1 Thess 5:1-2, prophesy is our situation today. It tells us that destruction of the enemies; the attackers of Israel, as per Psalms 83, will be suddenly destroyed. That destruction from the Lord, will also remove all the apostate, etc: Jews as well, Jeremiah 12:14, Zephaniah 1:1-18

2 Thess 3:1-4 refers to the Return of Jesus and what must happen before that glorious Day. When the adversary sits in God's Temple in Jerusalem, he will have just conquered the holy people, the Christian nation of Beulah. Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:5-8
It will be 1260 days later that the Return takes place.
 
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Douggg

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The 1 Thess 5:1-2, prophesy is our situation today. It tells us that destruction of the enemies; the attackers of Israel, as per Psalms 83, will be suddenly destroyed. That destruction from the Lord, will also remove all the apostate, etc: Jews as well, Jeremiah 12:14, Zephaniah 1:1-18
Your scenario has God defending the Jews in Israel from the Psalms 83 attackers - only to decimate them (the Jews) in His fiery wrath of a solar event, depopulating the land of Israel. That makes no sense, keras.
 
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Douggg

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2 Thess 3:1-4 refers to the Return of Jesus and what must happen before that glorious Day. When the adversary sits in God's Temple in Jerusalem, he will have just conquered the holy people, the Christian nation of Beulah. Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:5-8
It will be 1260 days later that the Return takes place.
typo, 2Thess2:1-4.

keras, in your scenario, you have Christians from around the world move to the land of Israel (depopulated of the Jews in a solar event). Why would any Christian, with their family, move to Israel - knowing that worst time in history will take place there?

Why would any Christian, now, apart from your scenario, want to move to Israel, for the same reason knowing that the worst time in history will take place there?

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

The Jews (Judaism) on the other hand, don't believe what is in the Christian bible regarding the Antichrist and great tribulation. They are looking forward to the messianic age of peace and safety.
 
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timothyu

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It reveals what Jesus taught with HIS GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM, that man would no longer control fellow man as God would resume governance over man, and our 'dust' universe of which humans also are, would be replaced by something new.
 
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grafted branch

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What you bring up is an interesting point. I'm not seeing why you might think it is derailing the thread, though?

What needs to be factored in is this, though--- and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

That means this little season begins right after they ask those things. Which then means that this little season has to involve martyrdom similar to theirs. As to what happened to unbelieving Jews in 70 AD, none of that remotely matches with avenging the martyrs under the altar nor the ones who are to be martyred during the little season. That's not the reason 70 AD happened, in order to avenge saints being martyred by unbelieving Jews.

Below is a brief article I just found. Assuming it is factual, one can see via it that what happened in 70 AD to the unbelieving Jews doesn't fit God avenging martyrs. This article estimates that 2 million Christians are martyred by 325 AD. How many of those estimated 2 million Christians were martyred by unbelieving Jews prior to 70 AD, though? And this article mentions, one reason Christians were persecuted and martyred is because of their refusal to worship or honor other gods. Even unbelieving Jews worshiped the same God Christians did, meaning the God of Abraham. To solely blame unbelieving Jews for the martyrdom of Christians, thus 70 AD equals these Christians being avenged, is ludicrous IMO.

You suggested that the questions asked during the 5th seal, this was asked before Stephen was ever martyred. While I tend to think this question hasn't even been asked yet, since a little season involving their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, has to follow after them having asked those things. And clearly, nothing pertaining to 70 AD even addresses what happened after 70 AD, such as up to 325 AD, where the article below estimates at least 2 million Christians have been killed by that time. When do those martyrs get avenged, and any saints martyred after that if God already avenged martyrs in 70 AD?
------------------------------------------
In the first few centuries, Christianity grew quickly. By AD100, it had become mostly Gentile and had begun to break from its Jewish origins. By 200, the faith had permeated most regions of the Roman Empire, though Christians were mostly in the larger urban areas (Gaul, Lyons, Carthage, Rome). By 325, an estimated 7 million were Christians with as many as 2 million killed for the faith. This growth can be attributed to the new faith's meeting needs across cultural barriers, its giving general meaning to life for many, the overall transformation of those lives, the social concerns of Christians during the plagues for the sick and the poor, and the power of its doctrine. News of the resurrection of Christ produced great loyalty among followers. Christian martyrdom also, ironically, created vast interest in and respect for the Christians and increased their numbers.

Reasons for Persecutions

Sometimes local, socio-economic conflict with Jewish circles created persecution in the first century.
After A.D. 50, Christianity was put on the imperial list of "illicit" sects, and after A.D. 64, it was declared illegal, though this did not always result in continual persecution. Christians had many periods of nominal and benign neglect.
Christian refusal to worship or honor other gods was a source of great contention.
Before A.D. 300, Christians were often from the urban poor and lower classes; thus, they were easy prey for those seeking power or goods. However, a sizeable group of educated, middle-class Christians also existed.
Christians were accused of being atheists because of their denial of the other gods and refusal of emperor worship. Thus, they were accused of treason to the state.
They were accused of "secret immoral worship" practices, including cannibalism, incest, and beastalism.
They were also charged as haters of humanity and being irrational in their beliefs. For many provincial governors, Christians were considered social radicals, rather than being persecuted specifically for their faith only.
Well I don’t think Revelation 6:9-11 is referring to all martyrs through out all of history. I think it’s referring to those who were killed by their own brethren, as seen in Matthew 10:21-23.


21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. 22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. 23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

I think this is what “should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled” is referring to.
 
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Douggg

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@claninja

Since you, like most Christians, are not aware of what Jews believe, I will inform you what their belief known to them as "the final redemption" is about.

"the final redemption" is the return of all of the whole house of Israel back to the land of Israel.

The fulfillment (sometime in the near future) is found in Ezekiel 39:28, 7 years after Gog/Magog, and immediately following Armageddon. Jesus, Himself, speaking in this text...

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

"the final redemption'' is also found as Matthew 24:31...

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The wording in Matthew 24:31 is taken from a promise God made to the house of Israel in Deuteronomy 30:1-6, about regathering them.

1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
 
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keras

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Your scenario has God defending the Jews in Israel from the Psalms 83 attackers - only to decimate them (the Jews) in His fiery wrath of a solar event, depopulating the land of Israel. That makes no sense, keras.
As God says thru Zephaniah 3:8-10 ....I will gather nations, assemble kingdoms in order to pour My wrath upon them. The whole earth will be affected by the fire of My anger.
THEN I shall give a new language to My faithful people, so they can call on the Lord and serve Him with one accord.
My worshippers, dispersed beyond the River of Ethiopia, will bring offerings to Me.


The River of AEthiopia, is the ancient name for the Atlantic Ocean.
Verse 10 refers to Americans who will come to the holy Land, as Isaiah 18:7 prophesies.
keras, in your scenario, you have Christians from around the world move to the land of Israel (depopulated of the Jews in a solar event). Why would any Christian, with their family, move to Israel - knowing that worst time in history will take place there?
Because we do not go there until God has cleared and cleansed all of the holy Land. Deuteronomy 32:34-43
Many prophesies say who the Lord's faithful Chirstian people will travel to and live in a regenerated Land, in peace and prosperity. Isaiah 35:1-10
 
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Douggg

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Because we do not go there until God has cleared and cleansed all of the holy Land. Deuteronomy 32:34-43
Many prophesies say who the Lord's faithful Chirstian people will travel to and live in a regenerated Land, in peace and prosperity. Isaiah 35:1-10
But keras, you have the Gog/Magog event and the 7 years following - happening to Beulah, the nation created by Christians - right ? Why would any Christian want to move there - knowing all the events of the 7 years ahead of time?
 
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keras

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But keras, you have the Gog/Magog event and the 7 years following - happening to Beulah, the nation created by Christians - right ? Why would any Christian want to move there - knowing all the events of the 7 years ahead of time?
I have to think you simply don't read what the Bible actually says. You're not dumb, Can you not see how the Lord promises protection, peace and prosperity to His faithful peoples?

He will protect those who call upon Him, during His terrible day of fiery wrath.
He will bless us with great prosperity.
He will give us peace, as He destroys that vast army led by Gog.
But our leaders will make a fatal mistake by agreeing to a 7 year peace treaty with the leader of the rest of the world. Isaiah 28:14-15
That leader will break the treaty and conquer Beulah, Daniel 9:27
Those who refused to agree to that treaty, Daniel 11:32, will be taken to the place of safety for the final 1260 days; Revelation 12:14

Then Jesus will Return, destroy all the ungodly peoples, gather those faithful people, those who remain, 1 Thess 4:16-17, and commence His Millennium reign
 
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Douggg

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Those who refused to agree to that treaty, Daniel 11:32, will be taken to the place of safety for the final 1260 days; Revelation 12:14
Daniel 11:32 is historic, not end times.

Revelation 12:4 are them in Judea who heed Jesus's words to flee into the mountains when they see the AoD standing in the holy place - i.e. temple mount.

Why would any Christian want to move to the land of Israel, knowing that unmatched times of trouble will be centered there? I am saying your scenario does not make sense.
 
keras
keras
I have posted plenty of Prophesies about how the Christian peoples will occupy all of the holy Land.
You are simply unable to understand them.

When did any of Daniel 11:21-45 take place? It is all end times Prophecy and it fits with Revelation.
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Douggg
Douggg
Daniel 11:36-45 is end times. The transition to the end times is v35.

If Gog/Magog takes place against the current Israel over there - then that negates your entire end times scenario, right?
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timothyu

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Consider that Israel is not a place but an ideal, the true followers are not genetic but trust in God as Abraham once did. Duality, just as we see in Christianity. Besides the jews lived in Judah. not Israel to the north. They just took the name for their own this time around, laying claim to the family name even though they are only 1/12th of the family House of Israel
 
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claninja

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I was asking you - Do you know what the Jews consider "the final redemption" a common term in their beliefs?

Is it that hard for you to say "I don't know" ?

I will give you an example of how easy it is to say "I don't know". Example: Speaking for myself, Douggg, I don't know what the Antichrist's name is regarding the 666 number.
__________________________________________________________________

The Yanuka - Shlomo Yehuda. Go to gematrix.org and type in Shlomo Yehda - leaving out the "u" and see what you get.

Your original argument that revelation has hundreds of different interpretations due to Christians not universally understanding what Judaism believes about the messiah is noted and has been shown to be incorrect. There is no need for you to shift your argument to something else nor belittle me not going along with said shifted argument
 
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claninja

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But it wasn't, so the 'soon; refers to God's timing.

God can, and has, told his people when things are near or for the distant future, So I don’t find this argument convincing.

It was being “revealed” or “uncovered” to John that the events of revelation were to quickly take place for the time was near.

If they weren’t actually near, as your seem to argue, it seems John should have been told to seal them up, like Daniel.
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must quickly take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.3Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

apokálypsis – properly, uncovering (unveiling). See 601(apokalyptō).

602 /apokálypsis ("revelation, unveiling") is principally used of the revelation of Jesus Christ (the Word), especially a particular (spiritual) manifestation of Christ (His will) previously unknown to the extent (because "veiled, covered").

Why can’t the universal Church agree on the meanings of the multiple visions in the book of Revelation, if it is an “unveiling” or an “uncovering” or a “revealing”?

Why are there hundreds of different and disagreeing interpretations on this eschatological forum alone, if revelation is an “unveiling” or an “uncovering” or a “revealing” of truth?
What I think Jesus is conveying by that statement is the things already written about in OT and NT prophecy that are about to come to pass verses the things that are not about to come to pass. Prophecy is supposed to be practical in some form or another. Bascially they were being told the prophecy about the end of the second covenant age was about to all be fullfilled but the prophecy about the end of the age of the four gentile empires followed by an age of promise of a free world is not.
 
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Douggg

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Your original argument that revelation has hundreds of different interpretations due to Christians not universally understanding what Judaism believes about the messiah is noted and has been shown to be incorrect. There is no need for you to shift your argument to something else nor belittle me not going along with said shifted argument
I ask you a question if you knew what the final redemption was in Jewish belief to further the discussion into something beneficial, but you would not respond whether you knew or not. It takes two to have a conversation.
 
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keras

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God can, and has, told his people when things are near or for the distant future, So I don’t find this argument convincing.

It was being “revealed” or “uncovered” to John that the events of revelation were to quickly take place for the time was near.

If they weren’t actually near, as your seem to argue, it seems John should have been told to seal them up, like Daniel.
The different revealing times, was due to the First Advent of Jesus.
Daniel lived circa 500 BC, so the Prophesies were sealed.
After the Ministry of Jesus, we received His and the Apostles Prophesies, They and all the OT Prophesies are available to all now, as Written in our Bibles.
However, this does not mean the everyone will be able to understand them. In fact, Daniel 12:4 & 10b, say that only a few people will understand.
(Staff Edit 12/15/2022)
 
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oikonomia

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Revelation reveals Jesus Christ is the mingling of God and man. (Rev. 1:17,18)
Revelation reveals God's purpose to build and expand the mingling of God and man into a city New Jerusalem.
And all of history is for and moving toward this climax of the fulfillment of God's purpose to unite God and man.

Revelation reveals among other things, there should be one church in one city. It shows that in the eyes of God
the only thing which seperates one church on earth from another church on earth is geography.
Denominations, Non-denominations, National churches, churches according to countries, racial churches, ethnic churches, churches according to regions, churches according to certain servants of God (no matter how spiritual or useful), churches named for methods of baptism or spiritual gifts, churches according to certian doctrinal understandings (no matter how correct), churches by streets, or anything larger OR smaller than a locality - including homes, or a World Wide Public Church, or a Public Church named for the most important city in the world, are man-made inventions and are abnormal (though genuine saved Christians meet within such entities).

God ordained one church to match one locality whether we like it or not, whether we think it is practical or not.

I was in spirit on the Lord's Day and heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, Saying, What you see write in a scroll and send it to the seven churches:
to Ephesus
and to Smyrna
and to Pergamos
and to Thytira
and to Sardis
and to Philadelphia
and to Laodicea.


And I turned to see the voice that spoke with me; and when I turned, I saw seven golden lampstands, And in the midst of the lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment reaching to the feet, and girded about at the breasts with a golden girdle." (Rev. 10 -13).
 
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claninja

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I ask you a question if you knew what the final redemption was in Jewish belief to further the discussion into something beneficial, but you would not respond whether you knew or not. It takes two to have a conversation.
Again, your argument was that revelation has hundreds of different interpretations interpretations because Christians universally don’t understand Judaisms belief of the messiah. No need to shift to anything else not related to the OP. If your would like to discuss the “final redemption”
That Judaism believes in, start your own thread.
 
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claninja

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Revelation reveals Jesus Christ is the mingling of God and man. (Rev. 1:17,18)
Revelation reveals God's purpose to build and expand the mingling of God and man into a city New Jerusalem.
And all of history is for and moving toward this climax of the fulfillment of God's purpose to unite God and man.

Revelation reveals among other things, there should be one church in one city. It shows that in the eyes of God
the only thing which seperates one church on earth from another church on earth is geography.
Denominations, Non-denominations, National churches, churches according to countries, racial churches, ethnic churches, churches according to regions, churches according to certain servants of God (no matter how spiritual or useful), churches named for methods of baptism or spiritual gifts, churches according to certian doctrinal understandings (no matter how correct), churches by streets, or anything larger OR smaller than a locality - including homes, or a World Wide Public Church, or a Public Church named for the most important city in the world, are man-made inventions and are abnormal (though genuine saved Christians meet within such entities).

God ordained one church to match one locality whether we like it or not, whether we think it is practical or not.

I was in spirit on the Lord's Day and heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, Saying, What you see write in a scroll and send it to the seven churches:
to Ephesus
and to Smyrna
and to Pergamos
and to Thytira
and to Sardis
and to Philadelphia
and to Laodicea.


And I turned to see the voice that spoke with me; and when I turned, I saw seven golden lampstands, And in the midst of the lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment reaching to the feet, and girded about at the breasts with a golden girdle." (Rev. 10 -13).

A lot of what you said the book revelation reveals or uncovers is already taught by Paul in his epistles. So I don’t think that’s necessarily what revelation is “revealing” or “uncovering”.
 
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claninja

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What I think Jesus is conveying by that statement is the things already written about in OT and NT prophecy that are about to come to pass verses the things that are not about to come to pass. Prophecy is supposed to be practical in some form or another. Bascially they were being told the prophecy about the end of the second covenant age was about to all be fullfilled but the prophecy about the end of the age of the four gentile empires followed by an age of promise of a free world is not.

Since revelation is mostly symbolic/apocalyptic visions, how is that a “revealing” or “uncovering”?
 
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