What does the book of Revelation “reveal” ?

keras

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If some of the things Josephus said was reported by several news agencies as events that just happened, I’m quite sure that this forum would have a large amount of posts declaring that prophecy is being fulfilled before our eyes.
Nothing of what Josephus reported about 70 AD events, fits the Prophesies in Revelation.
Preterism simply leaves those who reject the possibility of forthcoming dramatic events: in the dark.
 
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Timtofly

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There are two views on when the date of Revelation was written. The 95AD
date has always been in question.
Blessings.
It is also the only contender, as no one has presented another date of note. Could there be a range of dates? Probably.
 
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grafted branch

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The Fifth Seal is obviously open and all the souls of the martyrs since Stephen are kept under the Altar in heaven.
I would say Stephen is one of the most least likely souls under the altar.

Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Why would Stephen do a complete 180 if he is one of the ones under the altar? Why would he be asking when will his blood be avenged?
Nothing of what Josephus reported about 70 AD events, fits the Prophesies in Revelation.
Preterism simply leaves those who reject the possibility of forthcoming dramatic events: in the dark.
Absolutely nothing fits events in Revelation?
 
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Douggg

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Where does revelation “reveal” or “uncover” any of this?
In Revelation 6, the rider on the white horse is given a crown. That crown will be to be anointed the King of Israel - coming in his own name (the Antichrist). He is involved in military activities. He is riding a white horse - like Jesus - in Revelation 19, indicating that he is a messiah like figure.

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.



little horn beast.jpg
 
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Douggg

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Cart before the horse, Douggggggggggggg

The prophecy in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3, refers to the forthcoming terrible day the Lord sends His fiery wrath.
THEN all the ungodly peoples in all of the holy Land, will be gone. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Ezekiel 30:2-5, Jeremiah 12:14
You are saying that it is the Jews in Israel will be saying peace and safety, before the Day of the Lord begins.

That conflicts with your interpretation of the Antichrist going into the temple sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood, - after the Jews are gone - with Christians occupying the land (renamed Beulah) to begin the Day of the Lord.

Here is the conflict in your interpretation:
1Thessalonians 5:1-3 - Day of the Lord begins - Jews in the land
2Thessalonians2:4 - Day of the Lord begins - Christians in the land
 
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keras

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Why would Stephen do a complete 180 if he is one of the ones under the altar? Why would he be asking when will his blood be avenged?
Stephen was the first Christian martyr. As Revelation 6:9-11 makes clear, his soul will be kept in the place of honour; under the Altar in heaven.
Absolutely nothing fits events in Revelation?
I have read Josephus and the Bible, the events described in Revelation, simply bear no relation to what happened in 70 AD. Lots of people killed, is all.
 
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Douggg

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@keras

You wrote:
No conflict.
It will be Christians who build the new Temple. Zechariah 6:15

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

keras, the conflict with your view is who is in the land when the Day of the Lord begins. You give two conflicting interpretations. In one interpretation you say the Jews are in the land. In another interpretation, you say Christians are in the land. When the Day of the Lord begins.


Here is the conflict in your interpretation:
1Thessalonians 5:1-3 - Day of the Lord begins - Jews in the land
2Thessalonians2:4 - Day of the Lord begins - Christians in the land
 
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claninja

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In Revelation 6, the rider on the white horse is given a crown. That crown will be to be anointed the King of Israel - coming in his own name (the Antichrist). He is involved in military activities. He is riding a white horse - like Jesus - in Revelation 19, indicating that he is a messiah like figure.

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.



View attachment 324572
The book of revelation doesn’t “reveal” or “uncover” that the rider of the white horse will be anointed the King of Israel. That is your own personal interpretation of the vision.
 
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claninja

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But it wasn't, so the 'soon; refers to God's timing.
If it wasn’t literally soon then why didn’t the angel just tell John the time was “many days from now” or “in the distant future” like Daniel was told? Why is John told the exact opposite of Daniel?

Daniel 8:26 26The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been spoken is true. Now you must seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future.”

Revelation 22:10 10Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is near
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must quickly take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.3Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

apokálypsis – properly, uncovering (unveiling). See 601(apokalyptō).

602 /apokálypsis ("revelation, unveiling") is principally used of the revelation of Jesus Christ (the Word), especially a particular (spiritual) manifestation of Christ (His will) previously unknown to the extent (because "veiled, covered").

Why can’t the universal Church agree on the meanings of the multiple visions in the book of Revelation, if it is an “unveiling” or an “uncovering” or a “revealing”?

Why are there hundreds of different and disagreeing interpretations on this eschatological forum alone, if revelation is an “unveiling” or an “uncovering” or a “revealing” of truth?
Thought I would post the link to Josephus's description of what took place in Jerusalem when the Zealots locked up the city.

 
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Douggg

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The book of revelation doesn’t “reveal” or “uncover” that the rider of the white horse will be anointed the King of Israel. That is your own personal interpretation of the vision.
Revelation 19 says that Jesus is riding a white horse. The rider on the white horse in Revelation 6 is therefore a messiah like figure - the Antichrist.

My first post in this thread was in response to your question in the opening post - Why are there hundreds of different and disagreeing interpretations on this eschatological forum alone, if revelation is an “unveiling” or an “uncovering” or a “revealing” of truth?

Number 1 reason - Because there is an almost universal lack of knowledge among Christians regarding what Judaism believes regarding the messiah.

Then, after me expanding on that lack of knowledge - at your request - you state above - showing your lack of knowledge of what Judaism believes, just as I wrote being the number 1 reason, that the rider on the white horse will not be the anointed King of Israel, the Antichrist - proving my point.

I also included a timeline chart of the person going through all the different stages of him found in the bible.





little horn beast.jpg
 
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grafted branch

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Stephen was the first Christian martyr. As Revelation 6:9-11 makes clear, his soul will be kept in the place of honour; under the Altar in heaven.
What happened in 2 Chronicles 24:22 shows how those under the altar and under the law would act and ask to be avenged. Acts 7:60 shows how someone under grace would act.

I don’t want to derail this thread so I’ll just add this last point about my view on this, anyone who has read Revelation 6 already knows what the answer to the question of how long dost thou not judge. It would show a complete lack of faith if someone thinks that the Lord would give any other answer to that question than the one given in Revelation 6:11. Since we all know the answer to the question, it makes no sense we would ask it if we were to be martyred and end up under the altar.

Stephen almost certainly was one of the follow servants or brethren that was to be killed, but it makes no sense at all that he himself would be asking for his blood to be avenged. He was killed after the question was asked by the Old Testament martyrs.

Ok, enough said on my part.
 
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claninja

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My first post in this thread was in response to your question in the opening post - Why are there hundreds of different and disagreeing interpretations on this eschatological forum alone, if revelation is an “unveiling” or an “uncovering” or a “revealing” of truth?
Number 1 reason - Because there is an almost universal lack of knowledge among Christians regarding what Judaism believes regarding the messiah.

Then, after me expanding on that lack of knowledge - at your request - you state above - showing your lack of knowledge of what Judaism believes, just as I wrote being the number 1 reason, that the rider on the white horse will not be the anointed King of Israel, the Antichrist - proving my point.

I also included a timeline chart of the person going through all the different stages of him found in the bible.





View attachment 324583

I understand what the Jews, who rejected Christ, were looking for in the messiah. This is commonly taught in the CRC. The CRC I belonged to was Amil, which would completely disagree with your interpretation, so I reject your argument that there are hundreds of different interpretations on revelation BECAUSE of the lack of universal knowledge of Judaism’s understanding of the messiah.

In regards to your 2nd point. It makes no sense. People not believing that the rider on the white horse is anointed as king of Israel “proves” your first point: universal lack of understanding of Judaism’s understanding of the messiah? That’s not even a logical argument, so i don’t even know how to respond to it.
 
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Douggg

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I understand what the Jews, who rejected Christ, were looking for in the messiah. This is commonly taught in the CRC. The CRC I belonged to was Amil, which would completely disagree with your interpretation, so I reject your argument that there are hundreds of different interpretations on revelation BECAUSE of the lack of universal knowledge of Judaism’s understanding of the messiah.
Do you know what the Jews consider "the final redemption" a common term in their beliefs?
 
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Lost4words

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Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must quickly take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.3Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

apokálypsis – properly, uncovering (unveiling). See 601(apokalyptō).

602 /apokálypsis ("revelation, unveiling") is principally used of the revelation of Jesus Christ (the Word), especially a particular (spiritual) manifestation of Christ (His will) previously unknown to the extent (because "veiled, covered").

Why can’t the universal Church agree on the meanings of the multiple visions in the book of Revelation, if it is an “unveiling” or an “uncovering” or a “revealing”?

Why are there hundreds of different and disagreeing interpretations on this eschatological forum alone, if revelation is an “unveiling” or an “uncovering” or a “revealing” of truth?

Revelation is the most misunderstood and misinterpreted book in the Bible with people falling over themselves claiming to be 'the' expert on it.
 
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Douggg

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Doesn’t address the OP.
I am talking about the lack of knowledge by most Christians about what the Jews believe as being the number 1 reason why there are so many different views regarding Revelation. I asked you the question to prove it.

If you don't know - then simply say, I don't know. And I will explain it and how it applies to Jesus's return - based on passages from the bible.
 
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claninja

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I am talking about the lack of knowledge by most Christians about what the Jews believe as being the number 1 reason why there are so many different views regarding Revelation. I asked you the question to prove it.

If you don't know - then simply say, I don't know. And I will explain it and how it applies to Jesus's return - based on passages from the bible.

And I rejected this argument because it’s not true. It’s pretty well known amongst Christendom that the Jews, who rejected Jesus, were looking for a political leader to overthrow the Romans and establish Israel as the new World power over the gentiles.

To say that this is universally unknown by the church and that is why revelation has hundreds of different interpretations, is simply false. It’s a subjective argument for which you can provide no evidence.
 
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Douggg

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And I rejected this argument because it’s not true. It’s pretty well known amongst Christendom that the Jews, who rejected Jesus, were looking for a political leader to overthrow the Romans and establish Israel as the new World power over the gentiles.

To say that this is universally unknown by the church and that is why revelation has hundreds of different interpretations, is simply false. It’s a subjective argument for which you can provide no evidence.

I was asking you - Do you know what the Jews consider "the final redemption" a common term in their beliefs?

Is it that hard for you to say "I don't know" ?

I will give you an example of how easy it is to say "I don't know". Example: Speaking for myself, Douggg, I don't know what the Antichrist's name is regarding the 666 number.
__________________________________________________________________

The Yanuka - Shlomo Yehuda. Go to gematrix.org and type in Shlomo Yehda - leaving out the "u" and see what you get.
 
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DavidPT

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What happened in 2 Chronicles 24:22 shows how those under the altar and under the law would act and ask to be avenged. Acts 7:60 shows how someone under grace would act.

I don’t want to derail this thread so I’ll just add this last point about my view on this, anyone who has read Revelation 6 already knows what the answer to the question of how long dost thou not judge. It would show a complete lack of faith if someone thinks that the Lord would give any other answer to that question than the one given in Revelation 6:11. Since we all know the answer to the question, it makes no sense we would ask it if we were to be martyred and end up under the altar.

Stephen almost certainly was one of the follow servants or brethren that was to be killed, but it makes no sense at all that he himself would be asking for his blood to be avenged. He was killed after the question was asked by the Old Testament martyrs.

Ok, enough said on my part.

What you bring up is an interesting point. I'm not seeing why you might think it is derailing the thread, though?

What needs to be factored in is this, though--- and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

That means this little season begins right after they ask those things. Which then means that this little season has to involve martyrdom similar to theirs. As to what happened to unbelieving Jews in 70 AD, none of that remotely matches with avenging the martyrs under the altar nor the ones who are to be martyred during the little season. That's not the reason 70 AD happened, in order to avenge saints being martyred by unbelieving Jews.

Below is a brief article I just found. Assuming it is factual, one can see via it that what happened in 70 AD to the unbelieving Jews doesn't fit God avenging martyrs. This article estimates that 2 million Christians are martyred by 325 AD. How many of those estimated 2 million Christians were martyred by unbelieving Jews prior to 70 AD, though? And this article mentions, one reason Christians were persecuted and martyred is because of their refusal to worship or honor other gods. Even unbelieving Jews worshiped the same God Christians did, meaning the God of Abraham. To solely blame unbelieving Jews for the martyrdom of Christians, thus 70 AD equals these Christians being avenged, is ludicrous IMO.

You suggested that the questions asked during the 5th seal, this was asked before Stephen was ever martyred. While I tend to think this question hasn't even been asked yet, since a little season involving their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, has to follow after them having asked those things. And clearly, nothing pertaining to 70 AD even addresses what happened after 70 AD, such as up to 325 AD, where the article below estimates at least 2 million Christians have been killed by that time. When do those martyrs get avenged, and any saints martyred after that if God already avenged martyrs in 70 AD?
------------------------------------------
In the first few centuries, Christianity grew quickly. By AD100, it had become mostly Gentile and had begun to break from its Jewish origins. By 200, the faith had permeated most regions of the Roman Empire, though Christians were mostly in the larger urban areas (Gaul, Lyons, Carthage, Rome). By 325, an estimated 7 million were Christians with as many as 2 million killed for the faith. This growth can be attributed to the new faith's meeting needs across cultural barriers, its giving general meaning to life for many, the overall transformation of those lives, the social concerns of Christians during the plagues for the sick and the poor, and the power of its doctrine. News of the resurrection of Christ produced great loyalty among followers. Christian martyrdom also, ironically, created vast interest in and respect for the Christians and increased their numbers.

Reasons for Persecutions

Sometimes local, socio-economic conflict with Jewish circles created persecution in the first century.
After A.D. 50, Christianity was put on the imperial list of "illicit" sects, and after A.D. 64, it was declared illegal, though this did not always result in continual persecution. Christians had many periods of nominal and benign neglect.
Christian refusal to worship or honor other gods was a source of great contention.
Before A.D. 300, Christians were often from the urban poor and lower classes; thus, they were easy prey for those seeking power or goods. However, a sizeable group of educated, middle-class Christians also existed.
Christians were accused of being atheists because of their denial of the other gods and refusal of emperor worship. Thus, they were accused of treason to the state.
They were accused of "secret immoral worship" practices, including cannibalism, incest, and beastalism.
They were also charged as haters of humanity and being irrational in their beliefs. For many provincial governors, Christians were considered social radicals, rather than being persecuted specifically for their faith only.
 
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