What does prayer do?

[Tom 1]

First of all, you may not be aware that this forum has mods whose job it is to make sure people keep to the rules. I think it would be a good idea for you to read this thread:
"Any denigration of the views, character or intelligence of another member will not be accepted under the site rules on flaming."

Now, then. To respond to the substance of your post: it's true that the word "good" can indeed have many meanings in different contexts. In this case, however, it seems to me to be used in a very simple way, as a mere counterpoint to "evil". If you think that it has some other meanings in the context of this sentences, please provide evidence to show your case instead of just asserting it.


Not a very informative claim. Tell me, in all these answers that God gave to your prayers, how many of them could have been coincidence or just impressions in your mind?


We've just seen Jesus saying that anything you can ask for in prayer you will receive. Now, it's reasonable to suppose that He had an unspoken assumption that this didn't include evil things, or things that would be bad for you, so your point about not giving your niece a chainsaw stands.
But where does your analogy go from here? You say you did tell her you'd get her a gift for your birthday, which is a good analogy for how Jesus says God will grant whatever you ask for.
So, what next? If your niece asked for a book by Charles Dickens, would you instead buy her a book by Oscar Wilde? Or would you get her nothing at all?

You’re providing the answer yourself:

‘Anything’ doesn’t mean literally anything.

What then does it mean?

There is a basic division you can begin with: good things, and bad things.

By what definition are we to say that one thing is bad, and the other good?

This being a discussion about things in the bible, the biblical definitions would seem relevant. These are both narrow and broad; narrow in defined lists of behaviours seen to be evil, which relate in various ways to things a person might want, and broadly in the principles embodied in phrases like learning from ‘constant use’ (Heb 5:14), the qualities a person should strive for (1 Pet 1), situational behaviours (James), and, even more broadly, in developing an understanding of what distinguishes the people of god, as in the details of the community, quite radical at the time, described in Deuteronomy, or the church in acts, and so on.

Using those definitions, you can arrive at an understanding of what Jesus means by ‘good’, very generally this would mean things that are beneficial for the community of god. Comparing this idea also with how Jesus spoke about and demonstrated in actions his ideas regarding things like bodily comfort, wealth, things of that sort, those are generally not the kind of things that would necessarily be included, as a kind of heuristic.

Regarding ‘proof’ of answered prayers, it would be useful to define what higher authority or overarching notion of objective proof or über-standard you are referring to. I have prayed things at various times I have had answers to. You use your imagination to compare this statement to experiences of your own, I, in turn, imagine that you are referring to something like my own experience of meditation. There is no scope here for proof - proof of what? A number of explanations can be suggested for any number of experiences, none of them is provable. Do unusual things happen? Yes. Can it be proven that they fit some proffered explanation - sometimes, sometimes not. There is no irreducible standard of proof here, however you dice it you have a belief that one or another explanation is the most convincing to you in a given situation.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I

You’re providing the answer yourself:

‘Anything’ doesn’t mean literally anything.

What then does it mean?

There is a basic division you can begin with: good things, and bad things.

By what definition are we to say that one thing is bad, and the other good?

This being a discussion about things in the bible, the biblical definitions would seem relevant. These are both narrow and broad; narrow in defined lists of behaviours seen to be evil, which relate in various ways to things a person might want, and broadly in the principles embodied in phrases like learning from ‘constant use’ (Heb 5:14), the qualities a person should strive for (1 Pet 1), situational behaviours (James), and, even more broadly, in developing an understanding of what distinguishes the people of god, as in the details of the community, quite radical at the time, described in Deuteronomy, or the church in acts, and so on.

Using those definitions, you can arrive at an understanding of what Jesus means by ‘good’, very generally this would mean things that are beneficial for the community of god. Comparing this idea also with how Jesus spoke about and demonstrated in actions his ideas regarding things like bodily comfort, wealth, things of that sort, those are generally not the kind of things that would necessarily be included, as a kind of heuristic.

Regarding ‘proof’ of answered prayers, it would be useful to define what higher authority or overarching notion of objective proof or über-standard you are referring to. I have prayed things at various times I have had answers to. You use your imagination to compare this statement to experiences of your own, I, in turn, imagine that you are referring to something like my own experience of meditation. There is no scope here for proof - proof of what? A number of explanations can be suggested for any number of experiences, none of them is provable. Do unusual things happen? Yes. Can it be proven that they fit some proffered explanation - sometimes, sometimes not. There is no irreducible standard of proof here, however you dice it you have a belief that one or another explanation is the most convincing to you in a given situation.

Thank you for your reply. I'm glad to see you are adopting a more civil tone.
It's rather late in my time zone, so I'm afraid I have to delay my answer until tomorrow. Goodnight!
go to bed now. I'll answer tomorrow. Goodnight.

 

[Tom 1]

I

Thank you for your reply. I'm glad to see you are adopting a more civil tone.
It's rather late in my time zone, so I'm afraid I have to delay my answer until tomorrow. Goodnight!
go to bed now. I'll answer tomorrow. Goodnight.

Goodnight. Where are you btw? I didn’t really consider my ‘good to any’ comment to be denigrating, I am a little blunt maybe.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

C

Goodnight. Where are you btw? I didn’t really consider my ‘any to good’ comment to be denigrating, I am a little blunt maybe.

I live in China, though I'm British. Here, it's almost midnight right now. See you tomorrow!

 

[cvanwey]

You’re providing the answer yourself:

‘Anything’ doesn’t mean literally anything.

What then does it mean?

There is a basic division you can begin with: good things, and bad things.

By what definition are we to say that one thing is bad, and the other good?

This being a discussion about things in the bible, the biblical definitions would seem relevant. These are both narrow and broad; narrow in defined lists of behaviours seen to be evil, which relate in various ways to things a person might want, and broadly in the principles embodied in phrases like learning from ‘constant use’ (Heb 5:14), the qualities a person should strive for (1 Pet 1), situational behaviours (James), and, even more broadly, in developing an understanding of what distinguishes the people of god, as in the details of the community, quite radical at the time, described in Deuteronomy, or the church in acts, and so on.

Using those definitions, you can arrive at an understanding of what Jesus means by ‘good’, very generally this would mean things that are beneficial for the community of god. Comparing this idea also with how Jesus spoke about and demonstrated in actions his ideas regarding things like bodily comfort, wealth, things of that sort, those are generally not the kind of things that would necessarily be included, as a kind of heuristic.

Regarding ‘proof’ of answered prayers, it would be useful to define what higher authority or overarching notion of objective proof or über-standard you are referring to. I have prayed things at various times I have had answers to. You use your imagination to compare this statement to experiences of your own, I, in turn, imagine that you are referring to something like my own experience of meditation. There is no scope here for proof - proof of what? A number of explanations can be suggested for any number of experiences, none of them is provable. Do unusual things happen? Yes. Can it be proven that they fit some proffered explanation - sometimes, sometimes not. There is no irreducible standard of proof here, however you dice it you have a belief that one or another explanation is the most convincing to you in a given situation.

If I may respond here?

Sometimes, we just need to go back to the basics. In this case, the OP. @InterestedAtheist asks key questions...

'What if, for some reason, God suddenly stopped answering prayers, without telling anyone He was going to.

What would happen?
Would people notice? How?
How would the world change as a result of prayers now going completely unanswered?'

If I may sum up what the point of this thread may be...

I don't think there would exist [a way] to objectively distinguish 'answered prayer' apart from 'luck', 'chance', 'hard work paying off', other, etc...

The 'beauty' with prayer, is the Christian can basically assert whatever they want. And if something 'good' happens, in which the Christian might have prayed for, they attribute this result to being 'God willing.' Alternatively, when the outcome was not what was prayed for, the answer sometimes yields, 'well, it was not in God's plan.' Or, 'God knows best.' The Christian assertion is right either way

A better question might be, if we truly think God answers petitionary prayer (ever), then we must ask ourselves, as @BigV mentioned many posts back...

1. Why has God never answered the call to prayer, in request for restoration in an amputee's limb(s)?

2. Why has God never accommodated the parent's request to have their child no longer have Down's syndrome? Just two examples, off the top of my head...

Seems as though, since we do not have a cure, medically, for such current 'unwanted' occurrences, God might answer the call, with just as equal probability, as He seems to do for all other petitionary requests (both answered/unanswered).

Is it only when we find a way to reverse Downs syndrome, or 'grow back' someone's limb, is when God will start receiving the 'assist' in "answered prayer"? Again, assuming God responses to (even some) intercessory prayer at all?

 

[Tom 1]

If I may respond here?

Sometimes, we just need to go back to the basics. In this case, the OP. @InterestedAtheist asks key questions...

'What if, for some reason, God suddenly stopped answering prayers, without telling anyone He was going to.

What would happen?
Would people notice? How?
How would the world change as a result of prayers now going completely unanswered?'

If I may sum up what the point of this thread may be...

I don't think there would exist [a way] to objectively distinguish 'answered prayer' apart from 'luck', 'chance', 'hard work paying off', other, etc...

The 'beauty' with prayer, is the Christian can basically assert whatever they want. And if something 'good' happens, in which the Christian might have prayed for, they attribute this result to being 'God willing.' Alternatively, when the outcome was not what was prayed for, the answer sometimes yields, 'well, it was not in God's plan.' Or, 'God knows best.' The Christian assertion is right either way

A better question might be, if we truly think God answers petitionary prayer (ever), then we must ask ourselves, as @BigV mentioned many posts back...

1. Why has God never answered the call to prayer, in request for restoration in an amputee's limb(s)?

2. Why has God never accommodated the parent's request to have their child no longer have Down's syndrome? Just two examples, off the top of my head...

Seems as though, since we do not have a cure, medically, for such current 'unwanted' occurrences, God might answer the call, with just as equal probability, as He seems to do for all other petitionary requests (both answered/unanswered).

Is it only when we find a way to reverse Downs syndrome, or 'grow back' someone's limb, is when God will start receiving the 'assist' in "answered prayer"? Again, assuming God responses to (even some) intercessory prayer at all?

Sure, respond away. Anyone of any persuasion can assert whatever they like about it, I don’t see what your point is.

I don’t see the point either of the specific questions - what definitive answer could there be?

Not getting the point, if that wasn’t clear.

 

[Tom 1]

C

I live in China, though I'm British. Here, it's almost midnight right now. See you tomorrow!

What part of China? I was last there more than 15 yrs ago, I should imagine it’s changed quite a bit.

 

[cvanwey]

Sure, respond away. Anyone of any persuasion can assert whatever they like about it, I don’t see what your point is.

I don’t see the point either of the specific questions - what definitive answer could there be?

Not getting the point, if that wasn’t clear.

Then I can't be of any service (for you). Please re-read my response, or don't. I feel it needs no further elaboration. Pretty straight forward. Do as you will.

 

[Tom 1]

Then I can't be of any service (for you). Please re-read my response, or don't. I feel it needs no further elaboration. Pretty straight forward. Do as you will.

Sure yes, I just mean the ‘assert what you like’ applies to any and all opinions about it.

What would constitute any definitive answer to the other questions? I can’t think of one, whatever you might conclude about it.

 

[cvanwey]

Sure yes, I just mean the ‘assert what you like’ applies to any and all opinions about it.

What would constitute any definitive answer to the other questions? I can’t think of one, whatever you might conclude about it.

IF you believe God [ever] answers intercessory prayer, then you would need to account for the two numbered questions, in context.

 

[Tom 1]

IF you believe God [ever] answers intercessory prayer, then you would need to account for the two numbered questions, in context.

Why? And again, what would be a definitive answer?

 

[cvanwey]

Why? And again, what would be a definitive answer?

First things first... Do you think God ever answers petitionary prayer? Because some don't. A simple yes or no will suffice...

 

[Tom 1]

First things first... Do you think God ever answers petitionary prayer? Because some don't. A simple yes or no will suffice?

Do you mean something specific by petitionary prayer?

 

[cvanwey]

Do you mean something specific by petitionary prayer?

I mean, when you ask God for something, does God ever grant the request, ever? Or, not at all?

 

[Tom 1]

I mean, when you ask God for something, does God ever grant the request, ever? Or, not at all?

Well yes, I think so. He has answered my prayers 4 or 5 times as I see it. Whether or not he hasn’t answered this or that prayer that someone might have prayed is unanswerable. If he did answer one of those prayers, then he would have answered it, if he didn’t, then he wouldn’t have. Why or why not, you’d need to ask him.

 

[cvanwey]

Well yes, I think so. He has answered my prayers 4 or 5 times as I see it. Whether or not he hasn’t answered this or that prayer that someone might have prayed is unanswerable. If he did answer one of those prayers, then he would have answered it, if he didn’t, then he wouldn’t have. Why or why not, you’d need to ask him.

Okay, I will now highlight post #265 (with modifications):

Since God truly answers petitionary prayer (sometimes), then we must ask ourselves, as @BigV mentioned many posts back...

1. Why has God never answered the call to prayer, in request for restoration in an amputee's limb(s)?

2. Why has God never accommodated the parent's request to have their child no longer have Down's syndrome?

Seems as though, since we do not have a cure, medically, for such current 'unwanted' occurrences, God might answer the call, with just as equal probability, as He seems to do for all other petitionary requests (both answered/unanswered).

Is it only when we find a way to reverse Downs syndrome, or 'grow back' someone's limb, is when God will start receiving the 'assist' in "answered prayer"? Again, assuming God responses to (even some) intercessory prayer at all?

 

[Tom 1]

Okay, I will now highlight post #265 (with modifications):

Since God truly answers petitionary prayer (sometimes), then we must ask ourselves, as @BigV mentioned many posts back...

1. Why has God never answered the call to prayer, in request for restoration in an amputee's limb(s)?

2. Why has God never accommodated the parent's request to have their child no longer have Down's syndrome?

Seems as though, since we do not have a cure, medically, for such current 'unwanted' occurrences, God might answer the call, with just as equal probability, as He seems to do for all other petitionary requests (both answered/unanswered).

Is it only when we find a way to reverse Downs syndrome, or 'grow back' someone's limb, is when God will start receiving the 'assist' in "answered prayer"? Again, assuming God responses to (even some) intercessory prayer at all?

Well, clearly you feel that those questions must be answered, I don’t. What could possibly be a definitive answer to that, short of God coming down for a cup of tea and a chat?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Thank you. But Jesus does not say that God will not answer prayers; rather, as I've just posted, he encouraged it and promised they would be answered.

No, He didn't. I've been round and round and round with cvanwey and bigv on this issue over the last several months, and I'm not going over it again. It's not my fault if you, and an assortment of other people of whatever backgrounds, can't read the Bible without automatically resorting to hyper-literal and prima facie interpretations, completely devoid and disconnected from the overall Jewish idioms and cultural insinuations that color and temper the context(s).

Over and out!

 

[Tom 1]

No, He didn't. I've been round and round and round with cvanwey and bigv on this issue over the last several months, and I'm not going over it again.

Over and out!

Hold on...they both have V in their names...it’s a conspiracy for sure!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Hold on...they both have V in their names...it’s a conspiracy for sure!

Well, whether it's a conspiracy or not between them, I'd love to see what they're saying to each other behind the scenes. But regardless, what would really get my goat (excuse the pun) is if they turned out to be closet atheistic Satanists who have a V...endetta against Christians and Christianity.

But, who knows for sure?