What does prayer do?

[Tom 1]

Interesting. So you're saying that no way of looking at the world is valid?

It depends what you mean, valid for what etc. That could go on for a while though.

You did mention a couple of times that this is a debating forum, I didn’t notice that, I tend to browse the thread and post titles without looking at which forum they are in, bad habit I suppose. So, well, fair enough - I see these debates as pointless for the most part, just set up arguments that only address themselves. What is the point of that? It has no relevance to the subject being discussed. I take your point however that this is in fact a debate forum so I’ll bow out after responding to your last post. If you want to address any of it in a different forum let me know, so long as you don’t mind me commenting on your question, whatever it is.

 

[Tom 1]

All you're demonstrating is that you have nothing to bring to the debate except "I'm right, and you'd see it if you bothered to look." As such, all you've got is an empty assertion that you're right because you say you are.

No, what I am saying is that if you want an actual answer you need to go further than some trivial arguments.

 

[Tom 1]

everyone has a viewpoint, and we can't tell them apart

What do you mean, can’t tell them apart? I would say different viewpoints are quite easy to tell apart. I don’t know how you got that from what I said.

 

[Tom 1]

prove me wrong

Prove you wrong about what?

If you are saying your premise or whatever can be ‘proved wrong’ again you need to think that through. An argument/debate isn’t gong to prove anything - you don’t see that? You can further inform yourself by taking a different approach, if you want to, but these debates are just strings of words unless you actually decide to do that.

 

[Tom 1]

Indeed it is. Fortunately I didn't say that. You seems to like putting words in people's mouths.

That is essentially what you are saying - that this debate approach is a valid way to discuss the issue. You have a way of thinking, and that way of thinking is adequate to decide whether this other thing is or isn’t real. That is what you are saying.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Lol you have no idea if he does or not.

Actually, I have a very good idea. I am an atheist. That means I do not believe God never answers prayers, because God does not exist.
Of course, if you were to provide evidence that prayers to God are answered, that would be strong evidence that He does exist, and I would re-evaluate my worldview. It's an extremely simple thing, but it doesn't work so well for Christians because, well, they don't have anything to show.

Whether or not unusual things happen is something independent of what you think. You keep repeating the same stuff because you have some idea that your way of thinking is in some sense adequate for understanding the world, and you expect to be able to add to it piecemeal, as if other things can just be bent into the right shape to fit what you already think.

(shrug) You keep misinterpreting it to suit yourself.

You don’t appear to realise that the stuff in your head is just a way of thinking.

Of course I do. When did I say anything else?
What is not just in my head, or just in yours, is that God either exists or He doesn't.

Anyone can quote the bible selectively. Jesus, and the epistles, give a broader picture that fits in largely with the world as it is today - people experience different things, or the same things differently, according to their understanding and perception of the world.

I think you're confused here. If the Bible says one thing plainly in one part, and then contradicts itself in another part, that's the Bible's problem - and yours, as a Christian. On the other hand, if the quote I gave from the Bible can be shown to have some meaning other than the one that's plainly apparent, please give evidence for this.

Sure. I’m working through the bible at the moment looking at things like that to try and understand the purpose and significance of each event in its context, whether it is intended to be an actual account of an actual event, or an illustrative or instructive story written for some other purpose.

I'd like to say I'm waiting eagerly to see what you find, Tom, but the truth is I have not been impressed with your arguments so far. You don't understand reason, logic or evidence, and I have very little faith you will be able to apply them.
I do, however, have absolute faith that you'll be able to convince yourself that you're right. If not anyone else.

Your ‘because this then this’ approach is meaningless. Your whole premise is faulty - if you’re happy creating some circular arguments and winning them to your satisfaction and according to the criteria you set, go ahead, knock yourself out. Actually understanding anything about what you are addressing however would take a lot more than that.

I haven’t read many, those I have read are a bit pointless, just quibbles over set up positions that have no actual bearing on anything beyond the argument itself.

What I do see though are faulty questions - like yours for example - along the lines of ‘this is what I think therefore other people should be able to prove to me if my idea is correct or not, according to my criteria’. That is, essentially, a discussion with yourself.

Read it again - God gives ‘good things’. To get what is meant by that you can read some of the epistles, Peter and James’s letters for example.

 

[Tom 1]

Actually, it seems to be you who thinks he's the arbiter of what is true and what isn't.

Just pointing out that this kind of limited argument doesn’t address questions of what is real or isn’t adequately, so your definitive statements have little application beyond it.

 

[Tom 1]

Again, you say you could prove that I'm wrong,

?

 

[Tom 1]

Here, you are expected to defend your views with logic and reason.

I think your idea of what those things mean is a bit limited. If Jesus says they proof is in the pudding - try it and see’ then the logical thing to do is to try it and see. Those are the criteria offered for testing the thing put forward. Inventing your own criteria then trying to apply those instead is neither logical or reasonable.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

It depends what you mean, valid for what etc. That could go on for a while though.

No, I think I've got you pretty well figured out by now. This is unlikely to go on much further.

You did mention a couple of times that this is a debating forum, I didn’t notice that

Well, that probably explains why you're preaching rather than debating. Please pay attention in future. If you come to a debating forum without the intention of engaging in reasoned dialogue for the purpose of establishing a proposition, you're going to waste a lot of people's time.

What do you mean, can’t tell them apart? I would say different viewpoints are quite easy to tell apart. I don’t know how you got that from what I said.

I mean that your argument is that there is no way to tell which point of view is right or wrong.

Prove you wrong about what?

About God never answering prayers. See above.

An argument/debate isn’t gong to prove anything - you don’t see that?

This is something you may not have read. It's the notice at the top of this forum for all Christian and non-Christian participants:

MUST READ: Christian Apologetics Statement of Purpose
Christian Apologetics is a branch of theology that concerns itself with the rational defense of the Christian faith against arguments and opposing viewpoints. The purpose of the Christian Apologetics forum is to give non-Christians the opportunity to start threads to challenge Christian theology, beliefs and practices, and Christians the opportunity to rationally defend their beliefs.

I think, Tom, that a person who doesn't believe in establishing truth via reasoned argument, and who doesn't realise he's on a debating forum, is rather out of his depth here. Perhaps we should call it a day?

 

[Tom 1]

On a debating forum, you're expected to be able to back up your arguments.

Yes I can see the debate forum has some particular rules, I’ll check which forum I’m posting to next time. If you want a useful debate of the actual topic you can start a thread elsewhere.

What I expect is others to point out the flaws in my reasoning,

The flaw in your reasoning is that you think your starting point is valid.

To put it very briefly, as I’m out of time:

Someone proposes something to you and tells you how to find out if it is valid or not.

You decide to invent your own criteria for testing it instead.

You apply your own criteria.

You learn nothing.

 

[Tom 1]

I mean that your argument is that there is no way to tell which point of view is right or wrong.

No, that isn’t my argument. As with your other responses, you appear to have an inability to see past your own assumptions, and you seem to have quite a deep sack of them. See you in another forum maybe.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Yes I can see the debate forum has some particular rules, I’ll check which forum I’m posting to next time.

That sounds like a good idea. Since it's clear you aren't used to debating forums, I'll forebear from commenting on the rest of what you wrote. Bye for now.

 

[Tom 1]

I think you're confused here. If the Bible says one thing plainly in one part, and then contradicts itself in another part, that's the Bible's problem

This is the kind of thing that could be usefully addressed in a debate forum, so that could be worth starting. In my (admittedly limited) experience, atheists see contradictions in the bible where they wouldn’t see them in a similar text elsewhere. Read the passage again - what do you think is meant by a ‘good’ gift? How much of that definition comes from the passage and how much from your own brain? Do you think Jesus is envisioning literal scenarios of children receiving stones and snakes? (And so on - perhaps you can think of some other useful questions to ask of the text). The concept of ‘good’ in the bible is actually quite complex. Qualifying or explaining something, as I’m sure you’d agree in any other context, is a different thing than contradicting.
This is the idea of a valid question for debate - an idea that can be debated in the style of this forum. Ways of thinking are not ‘valid’ as you put it in all circumstances, they are valid for some things and not for others. Investigating whether things outside of your scope of thought and experience exist or not requires a completely different approach, a debate on that kind of topic is just word ping pong.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Sure, Tom, I'll be happy to debate this with you.

By the way - do you know how to use the "Quote" button? It's really useful to gather things to respond to in one post, rather than making multiple short posts.

In my (admittedly limited) experience, atheists see contradictions in the bible where they wouldn’t see them in a similar text elsewhere.

Well, let's hope this isn't one of those times, eh?

Read the passage again - what do you think is meant by a ‘good’ gift? How much of that definition comes from the passage and how much from your own brain?

Tom: I say this in all seriousness and friendliness. Do you think, on rereading any of the things you wrote, that you might be sometimes coming across as rather patronising? If we're going to have a serious debate, perhaps we should treat each other with civility, at least?
The passage you are referring to:
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Seems to be a fairly straightforward one: "Even imperfect humans know how to be kind and give good things to their children; therefore, God, who is much more loving than you are capable of being, will give much more to those who ask of Him."
If you try to assign the word "good" a meaning other than the obvious one, the passage loses its meaning. If you think this is what we should do, I'd be interested to see how you explain this, and what you think the passage means, and what justification your have for your interpretation.

Do you think Jesus is envisioning literal scenarios of children receiving stones and snakes? (And so on - perhaps you can think of some other useful questions to ask of the text).

No, of course I don't. I think He is making a perfectly serious point. Let's take a look at what He says:


5 And he said unto them, Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go unto him at midnight, and say to him, Friend, lend me three loaves; 6 for a friend of mine is come to me from a journey, and I have nothing to set before him; 7 and he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee?
8 I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will arise and give him as many as he needeth.
That makes sense. If you have a good friend, he will aid you when you are in trouble. God, who loves you, will also listen to your requests when you are in trouble, and not refuse them.
9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
This is perfectly clear. Pray, asking God for things, and your requests will be answered.
11 And of which of you that is a father shall his son ask a loaf, and he give him a stone? or a fish, and he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or [if] he shall ask an egg, will he give him a scorpion?
And God will give you what you ask for. What sense would it make for Him to give you something you didn't ask for? That would be foolishness.
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Even you, flawed and imperfect mortals that you are, know how to be good to your children, and give them what they ask for. Surely God, who is infinitely more loving than you, will give you what you ask for, and in much greater measure.
14 And he was casting out a demon [that was] dumb. And it came to pass, when the demon was gone out, the dumb man spake; and the multitudes marvelled.
And Jesus then demonstrates His power. Surely anyone who saw this would then know that what He had just said was true.

The meaning of the passage seems plain and uncontroversial to me. Jesus says that God will answer any prayers you ask of Him. Does that seem too good to be true? It probably is.

 

[Tom 1]

Sure, Tom, I'll be happy to debate this with you.

By the way - do you know how to use the "Quote" button? It's really useful to gather things to respond to in one post, rather than making multiple short posts.


Well, let's hope this isn't one of those times, eh?

Tom: I say this in all seriousness and friendliness. Do you think, on rereading any of the things you wrote, that you might be sometimes coming across as rather patronising? If we're going to have a serious debate, perhaps we should treat each other with civility, at least?
The passage you are referring to:
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Seems to be a fairly straightforward one: "Even imperfect humans know how to be kind and give good things to their children; therefore, God, who is much more loving than you are capable of being, will give much more to those who ask of Him."
If you try to assign the word "good" a meaning other than the obvious one, the passage loses its meaning. If you think this is what we should do, I'd be interested to see how you explain this, and what you think the passage means, and what justification your have for your interpretation.

No, of course I don't. I think He is making a perfectly serious point. Let's take a look at what He says:


5 And he said unto them, Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go unto him at midnight, and say to him, Friend, lend me three loaves; 6 for a friend of mine is come to me from a journey, and I have nothing to set before him; 7 and he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee?
8 I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will arise and give him as many as he needeth.
That makes sense. If you have a good friend, he will aid you when you are in trouble. God, who loves you, will also listen to your requests when you are in trouble, and not refuse them.
9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
This is perfectly clear. Pray, asking God for things, and your requests will be answered.
11 And of which of you that is a father shall his son ask a loaf, and he give him a stone? or a fish, and he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or [if] he shall ask an egg, will he give him a scorpion?
And God will give you what you ask for. What sense would it make for Him to give you something you didn't ask for? That would be foolishness.
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Even you, flawed and imperfect mortals that you are, know how to be good to your children, and give them what they ask for. Surely God, who is infinitely more loving than you, will give you what you ask for, and in much greater measure.
14 And he was casting out a demon [that was] dumb. And it came to pass, when the demon was gone out, the dumb man spake; and the multitudes marvelled.
And Jesus then demonstrates His power. Surely anyone who saw this would then know that what He had just said was true.

The meaning of the passage seems plain and uncontroversial to me. Jesus says that God will answer any prayers you ask of Him. Does that seem too good to be true? It probably is.

Yes the quote function doesn’t work very well on my phone’s browser, plus I’m painting a room in my house so opposable thumbs are a little less useful than usual.

That’s what I mean- you are going from ‘good’ to ‘any’ without pause for thought. In my experience God has answered my prayers for things that have been good, as opposed to trivial, unsuitable or good for me but not someone else (etc). If I tell my niece I will get her a gift for her birthday, and she asks for a chainsaw, I’m not going to give her a chainsaw, or something less dangerous but that wouldn’t match a gift I gave to my other niece in value or some other variable, and so on.

There are many discussions and elaborations in the bible on what might be considered good, which isn’t, as you say, a simple concept by any means. You can read 2 Peter 1, and the book of James as 2 examples. Really though to get an understanding of what is meant by good in the bible you need to take the time to absorb it. David Rosenberg’s literary translation is a great option for doing that.

It might seem patronising, but how else to say it? If you insist that some random ideas that pop into your head have some kind of objective validity, prepare to be patronised.

 

[Tom 1]

Sure, Tom, I'll be happy to debate this with you.

By the way - do you know how to use the "Quote" button? It's really useful to gather things to respond to in one post, rather than making multiple short posts.


Well, let's hope this isn't one of those times, eh?

Tom: I say this in all seriousness and friendliness. Do you think, on rereading any of the things you wrote, that you might be sometimes coming across as rather patronising? If we're going to have a serious debate, perhaps we should treat each other with civility, at least?
The passage you are referring to:
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Seems to be a fairly straightforward one: "Even imperfect humans know how to be kind and give good things to their children; therefore, God, who is much more loving than you are capable of being, will give much more to those who ask of Him."
If you try to assign the word "good" a meaning other than the obvious one, the passage loses its meaning. If you think this is what we should do, I'd be interested to see how you explain this, and what you think the passage means, and what justification your have for your interpretation.

No, of course I don't. I think He is making a perfectly serious point. Let's take a look at what He says:


5 And he said unto them, Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go unto him at midnight, and say to him, Friend, lend me three loaves; 6 for a friend of mine is come to me from a journey, and I have nothing to set before him; 7 and he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee?
8 I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will arise and give him as many as he needeth.
That makes sense. If you have a good friend, he will aid you when you are in trouble. God, who loves you, will also listen to your requests when you are in trouble, and not refuse them.
9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
This is perfectly clear. Pray, asking God for things, and your requests will be answered.
11 And of which of you that is a father shall his son ask a loaf, and he give him a stone? or a fish, and he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or [if] he shall ask an egg, will he give him a scorpion?
And God will give you what you ask for. What sense would it make for Him to give you something you didn't ask for? That would be foolishness.
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Even you, flawed and imperfect mortals that you are, know how to be good to your children, and give them what they ask for. Surely God, who is infinitely more loving than you, will give you what you ask for, and in much greater measure.
14 And he was casting out a demon [that was] dumb. And it came to pass, when the demon was gone out, the dumb man spake; and the multitudes marvelled.
And Jesus then demonstrates His power. Surely anyone who saw this would then know that what He had just said was true.

The meaning of the passage seems plain and uncontroversial to me. Jesus says that God will answer any prayers you ask of Him. Does that seem too good to be true? It probably is.

If I can make a suggestion a series of threads on the definitions of ideas pertinent to a question you have could make for an interesting discussion. There are lots of examples that could be interesting, one that comes to mind is suicide - in some cultures this is or has been seen as a noble, good thing in certain circumstances. This has wide-ranging affects on how other areas of life are thought about. Or another one that frequently comes up are the various horrible things that happen in the bible- you could tackle that, e.g questions going from general to specific about analogous situations - was it good to declare war against Hitler’s Germany, was it also good to incinerate Dresden, and so on. In that way you could avoid a lot of to and fro by establishing a base level of agreed definitions. Or in the instance of prayer, address the issue of do unusual things actually happen, and so on. Having established some baseline like that a discussion could be more useful, I think.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

If I can make a suggestion a series of threads on the definitions of ideas pertinent to a question you have could make for an interesting discussion. There are lots of examples that could be interesting, one that comes to mind is suicide - in some cultures this is or has been seen as a noble, good thing in certain circumstances. This has wide-ranging affects on how other areas of life are thought about. Or another one that frequently comes up are the various horrible things that happen in the bible- you could tackle that, e.g questions going from general to specific about analogous situations - was it good to declare war against Hitler’s Germany, was it also good to incinerate Dresden, and so on. In that way you could avoid a lot of to and fro by establishing a base level of agreed definitions. Or in the instance of prayer, address the issue of do unusual things actually happen, and so on. Having established some baseline like that a discussion could be more useful, I think.

There is in fact a forum on this site for exactly these types of questions - the Ethics and Morality forum. If you wish to post your threads there, I'll be happy to look in on them. If you post topics such as these here, in the General Apologetics section, it's likely that a moderator would intervene and move the threads to Ethics and Morality.

 

[Tom 1]

There is in fact a forum on this site for exactly these types of questions - the Ethics and Morality forum. If you wish to post your threads there, I'll be happy to look in on them. If you post topics such as these here, in the General Apologetics section, it's likely that a moderator would intervene and move the threads to Ethics and Morality.

Fair point. It seems to me that some process that some process of establishing some baseline definitions, although it wouldn’t be easy I should imagine, would make debates here more useful and less restrictive to any one person’s parameters for definition.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

That’s what I mean- you are going from ‘good’ to ‘any’ without pause for thought.

First of all, you may not be aware that this forum has mods whose job it is to make sure people keep to the rules. I think it would be a good idea for you to read this thread:
"Any denigration of the views, character or intelligence of another member will not be accepted under the site rules on flaming."

Now, then. To respond to the substance of your post: it's true that the word "good" can indeed have many meanings in different contexts. In this case, however, it seems to me to be used in a very simple way, as a mere counterpoint to "evil". If you think that it has some other meanings in the context of this sentences, please provide evidence to show your case instead of just asserting it.

In my experience God has answered my prayers for things that have been good, as opposed to trivial, unsuitable or good for me but not someone else (etc).

Not a very informative claim. Tell me, in all these answers that God gave to your prayers, how many of them could have been coincidence or just impressions in your mind?

If I tell my niece I will get her a gift for her birthday, and she asks for a chainsaw, I’m not going to give her a chainsaw, or something less dangerous but that wouldn’t match a gift I gave to my other niece in value or some other variable, and so on.

We've just seen Jesus saying that anything you can ask for in prayer you will receive. Now, it's reasonable to suppose that He had an unspoken assumption that this didn't include evil things, or things that would be bad for you, so your point about not giving your niece a chainsaw stands.
But where does your analogy go from here? You say you did tell her you'd get her a gift for your birthday, which is a good analogy for how Jesus says God will grant whatever you ask for.
So, what next? If your niece asked for a book by Charles Dickens, would you instead buy her a book by Oscar Wilde? Or would you get her nothing at all?