What does prayer do?

[Tom 1]

Well, whether it's a conspiracy or not between them, I'd love to see what they're saying to each other behind the scenes. But regardless, what would really get my goat (excuse the pun) is if they turned out to be closet atheistic Satanists who have a V...endetta against Christians and Christianity.

But, who know for sure?

Have a cup of tea, you’ll feel better

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Have a cup of tea, you’ll feel better

Green tea, for sure! And yes, I know I'd definitely feel a bit better after so imbibing.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Have a cup of tea, you’ll feel better

Y'know, I'm starting to think that I should have some kind of personal metric by which to evaluate the amount of interlocutionary investment I should make with any one other individuals, especially if and when they happen to an atheistic, antagonistic polemicist.

What'ya think, Tom? Should I? Would it be 'Christian' of me to implement some kind of "3 strikes and you're OUT!" type of evaluative measure? Or should I, as a Christians, even an existential one at that, just let everyone be who and what they 'are' and say whatever they think they want to say when we wrangle with this thing called Christian Faith?

 

[Tom 1]

Y'know, I'm starting to think that I should have some kind of personal metric by which to evaluate the amount of interlocutionary investment I should make with any one other individuals, especially if and when they happen to an atheistic, antagonistic polemicist.

What'ya think, Tom? Should I? Would it be 'Christian' of me to implement some kind of "3 strikes and you're OUT!" type of evaluative measure? Or should I, as a Christians, even an existential one at that, just let everyone be who and what they 'are' and say whatever they think they want to say when we wrangle with this thing called Christian Faith?

I dunno, I don’t often get phased by things. Probably people get annoyed with me rather than the other way around.

I think you have to limit how many threads you post on though, the general ‘you’ I mean, once you get into a discussion it can take up a lot of time.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I dunno, I don’t often get phased by things. Probably people get annoyed with me rather than the other way around.

I think you have to limit how many threads you post on though, the general ‘you’ I mean, once you get into a discussion it can take up a lot of time.

That's for sure!

 

[cvanwey]

Well, clearly you feel that those questions must be answered, I don’t. What could possibly be a definitive answer to that, short of God coming down for a cup of tea and a chat?

Not so fast. I already know God won't answer these question(s) Hence, I'm asking [you]. You are under the impression that, at least some of the time, God answers (some) intercessory prayer, via post #275.

Moving forward, we, meaning you and I, can then ask ourselves, or ask each other...

If God answers (some) prayer, this would mean that, once in a while, God would grant some of the requests applicable to the countless prayers to God for their child with Down's syndrome to be cured, or an amputee's limb to be restored. But He never does??.?.?

So, we, you and I, can ask ourselves... What's more likely...

Can we objectively distinguish 'answered prayer' apart from 'luck', 'chance', 'hard work paying off', other, etc..?

Or maybe, God never answers the call to request for Down's syndrome and amputees, but does for the ones you can equally attribute to 'luck', 'chance', 'hard work paying off', other, etc..?

 

[Tom 1]

Not so fast. I already know God won't answer these question(s) Hence, I'm asking [you]. You are under the impression that, at least some of the time, God answers (some) intercessory prayer, via post #275.

Moving forward, we, meaning you and I, can then ask ourselves, or ask each other...

If God answers (some) prayer, this would mean that, once in a while, God would grant some of the requests applicable to the countless prayers to God for their child with Down's syndrome to be cured, or an amputee's limb to be restored. But He never does??.?.?

So, we, you and I, can ask ourselves... What's more likely...

Can we objectively distinguish 'answered prayer' apart from 'luck', 'chance', 'hard work paying off', other, etc..?

Or maybe, God never answers the call to request for Down's syndrome and amputees, but does for the ones you can equally attribute to 'luck', 'chance', 'hard work paying off', other, etc..?

Objectively? Can you define what you would see as an objective standard? That could be worth discussing I think.

Probably you are familiar with Job, too, right? Although it doesn’t provide answers everyone is happy with it does address this whole question quite thoroughly, why things don’t happen according to the ‘rules’, why what we might expect to happen doesn’t, and vice versa.

 

[cvanwey]

Objectively? Can you define what you would see as an objective standard? That could be worth discussing I think.

Nice try in deflection, but this is not what I mean You understand the difference between subjective and objective, right?

Example:

Subjective: someone tells you they feel warm.
Objective: their temperature is 101.5 degrees

Now, let's stop with the shenanigans, and get on with it already...

Again, you seem to assert that, sometimes, God answers some petitionary prayer. So, does He:

A: Sometimes answers prayer, as long as it's not ever the request for Down's syndrome or amputees?

B: Does not answer any prayers at all, and humans instead tie their own connections to things which go their direction; which could very well be related exclusively to 'luck', 'chance', 'hard work paying off', other, etc..?

Again, it goes back to the OP. If God stopped answering all prayer, or never did answer prayer to begin with, would we ever know the difference?

 

[Tom 1]

Nice try in deflection, but this is not what I mean You understand the difference between subjective and objective, right?

Example:

Subjective: someone tells you they feel warm.
Objective: their temperature is 101.5 degrees

Now, let's stop with the shenanigans, and get on with it already...

Again, you seem to assert that, sometimes, God answers some petitionary prayer. So, does He:

A: Sometimes answers prayer, as long as it's not ever the request for Down's syndrome or amputees?

B: Does not answer any prayers at all, and humans instead tie their own connections to things which go their direction; which could very well be related exclusively to 'luck', 'chance', 'hard work paying off', other, etc..?

Again, it goes back to the OP. If God stopped answering all prayer, or never did answer prayer to begin with, would we ever know the difference?

Cvanwey, if you are just going to keep repeating the same thing, there isn’t a lot of point in continuing. I realise that it may say something to you, to me it says nothing. This whole idea doesn’t match the topic you’re addressing with it, prayer isn’t a formula, and if it were you would first have to prove that no prayer of that sort has ever been answered.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Hello, all. Just catching up.

You’re providing the answer yourself:
‘Anything’ doesn’t mean literally anything.
What then does it mean?
There is a basic division you can begin with: good things, and bad things.

Not so fast, Tom. You're running far ahead of what is warranted. Let's go back to your example of your niece. Just because you can decide not to give her a dangerous, "bad" thing if she asked for it, that doesn't mean we're finished.
Let's take another look at it. Supposing she asked for a painting set. Would you give her a tennis racket instead?

Using those definitions, you can arrive at an understanding of what Jesus means by ‘good’, very generally this would mean things that are beneficial for the community of god. Comparing this idea also with how Jesus spoke about and demonstrated in actions his ideas regarding things like bodily comfort, wealth, things of that sort, those are generally not the kind of things that would necessarily be included, as a kind of heuristic.

Now you're adding another qualifier. And, basically, you're making it up. Jesus promised quite clearly: ask, and it will be given to you. Just because you and I have agreed, for now, that He must have meant "ask, and it will be given to you, unless it's something stupidly dangerous" that doesn't mean you have a license to interpret Jesus as saying "Ask for something, and I will decide what the best thing to give you is."
Basically, Jesus made a promise, and you are taking it upon yourself to open a loophole in it so large that it drains it of any meaning.
I'm glad you made an analogy of your niece asking you for a birthday present. It illustrates the gap between how rational people act and how God acts nicely. If your niece asked you for a book of fairy tales, you'd get her one for her birthday; and if you didn't, you know you'd be seen as doing wrong, as breaking a promise you made her. It wouldn't have made much sense if she'd said, "Uncle Tom, please give me a book of fairy tales," and you said, "Sure thing! Look, I got you an encyclopaedia! Happy birthday!"

Regarding ‘proof’ of answered prayers, it would be useful to define what higher authority or overarching notion of objective proof or über-standard you are referring to.

Cvanswey has dealt with this already.

If I may respond here?

Hello, cvanwey! Your help is most welcome.

A better question might be, if we truly think God answers petitionary prayer (ever), then we must ask ourselves, as @BigV mentioned many posts back...
1. Why has God never answered the call to prayer, in request for restoration in an amputee's limb(s)?
2. Why has God never accommodated the parent's request to have their child no longer have Down's syndrome? Just two examples, off the top of my head...

God promised that if we ask, it shall be given to use. But clearly, this is not so.
I think this is time to bring up that old quotation - from Emile Zola, I believe: "The road to Lourdes is littered with crutches, but not one wooden leg."

Well, clearly you feel that those questions must be answered, I don’t. What could possibly be a definitive answer to that, short of God coming down for a cup of tea and a chat?

Because, as cvanwey pointed out, God is not going to answer those questions Himself. Fortunately, He has you, and this is Christian Forums Apologetics section, a debating forum which exists for the purposes of Christians defending their faith with rational answers.
You don't have to answer cvanwey's questions and mine. Just say "sorry, I don't know the answer," and be on your way.
Because if you are here, you're here to defend your faith. With reasons and evidence, please.

Can we objectively distinguish 'answered prayer' apart from 'luck', 'chance', 'hard work paying off', other, etc..?
Or maybe, God never answers the call to request for Down's syndrome and amputees, but does for the ones you can equally attribute to 'luck', 'chance', 'hard work paying off', other, etc..?

Exactly. If God does answer prayers then, quite simply, it should be observable that Christians are "luckier". This should be a measurable phenomenon. Is it?

Objectively? Can you define what you would see as an objective standard? That could be worth discussing I think.

Nice try in deflection, but this is not what I mean You understand the difference between subjective and objective, right?

Good point. Tom, please stop ducking the question.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

No, He didn't. I've been round and round and round with cvanwey and bigv on this issue over the last several months, and I'm not going over it again. It's not my fault if you, and an assortment of other people of whatever backgrounds, can't read the Bible without automatically resorting to hyper-literal and prima facie interpretations, completely devoid and disconnected from the overall Jewish idioms and cultural insinuations that color and temper the context(s).
Over and out!

Thank you, Philo, for joining the conversation for the purposes of telling us you won't be joining the conversation.

Y'know, I'm starting to think that I should have some kind of personal metric by which to evaluate the amount of interlocutionary investment I should make with any one other individuals, especially if and when they happen to an atheistic, antagonistic polemicist.
What'ya think, Tom? Should I? Would it be 'Christian' of me to implement some kind of "3 strikes and you're OUT!" type of evaluative measure? Or should I, as a Christians, even an existential one at that, just let everyone be who and what they 'are' and say whatever they think they want to say when we wrangle with this thing called Christian Faith?

I think you should concentrate on using reasoned arguments.

Probably people get annoyed with me rather than the other way around.

Perhaps you should try to do something about that.

 

[Tom 1]

And, basically, you're making it up.

You'll have to explain that one to me; how is using the context of the bible, to explain something in the bible, making something up? Please use some examples to explain what you mean.

Again: what you think when you read something is not its objective meaning, this is not a complicated idea.

 

[Tom 1]

Good point. Tom, please stop ducking the question.

I'm not, you just don't like the answer. The answer is that your question doesn't relate to the topic you are attempting to address. Your question relates to some things you think about it, which is a separate thing. You are essentially asking yourself a question about something that you think, independent of the topic you have the impression it relates to. I doubt if you would treat a different topic like this, in a different context.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

You'll have to explain that one to me; how is using the context of the bible, to explain something in the bible, making something up? Please use some examples to explain what you mean.

Again: what you think when you read something is not its objective meaning, this is not a complicated idea.

Easy. Just because you can quote the Bible, that doesn't mean the quotes support your argument.
If you think that "ask and it shall be given to you" means something other than its obvious meaning, then you'll need to explain why.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I'm not, you just don't like the answer. The answer is that your question doesn't relate to the topic you are attempting to address. Your question relates to some things you think about it, which is a separate thing. You are essentially asking yourself a question about something that you think, independent of the topic you have the impression it relates to. I doubt if you would treat a different topic like this, in a different context.

Tom: stop ducking the question.

 

[Tom 1]

Easy. Just because you can quote the Bible, that doesn't mean the quotes support your argument.
If you think that "ask and it shall be given to you" means something other than its obvious meaning, then you'll need to explain why.

This is worth spending time on. It's an interesting thing, for me anyway, that 'hard-core' atheists and religious fundamentalists are essentially mirror images of each other, stuck in opposing viewpoints that are laughably basic in their construction, but seemingly quite unable to think beyond an endless 'I think therefore I right' kind of mindset. I provided a rudimentary example and analogy because this really is a basic idea: what a thing is, as determined by its own context and nature (etc) vs what you think you know it is, based on limited understanding. I'm familiar with your way of thinking however so it isn't so surprising to me that you don't get it, you're certainly not unique in thinking that your superfical impression is telling you something 'true', but I do think it is worth exploring this topic, so I'll spend a bit more time on it in a few posts, when I have time that is. Whether or not you are willing to engage with that remains to be seen, but I still think it is worth doing.

 

[Tom 1]

Perhaps you should try to do something about that.

Lol it usually happens when people insist on clinging to untenable positions.

 

[cvanwey]

Cvanwey, if you are just going to keep repeating the same thing, there isn’t a lot of point in continuing.

Here's the dealio @Tom Farebrother .... This is a debate forum. This is an arena where people come to present topics of discussion - to challenge theists, and their faith. Furthermore, I am staying directly on topic, within this OP. You, on the other hand, are not. At least I know now, that you understand the responses I have previously provided. I wasn't sure if you were getting them, as you made absolutely no attempt in addressing them. Now I know, you instead wish to dodge them, and I can only wonder why?

I realise that it may say something to you, to me it says nothing. This whole idea doesn’t match the topic you’re addressing with it, prayer isn’t a formula, and if it were you would first have to prove that no prayer of that sort has ever been answered.

You then need to demonstrate why what I'm saying is flawed, in line with the OP topic(s)? You have made no attempt in doing so... You instead ignore it. AGAIN, you state that God has answered at least some of your prayers. Which means you believe God answers (some) prayer. So, AGAIN, if God answers (some) prayer, this would mean there is a likelihood that, once in a while, God would grant the request to cure someone with Down's syndrome and/or restore the limbs of amputees. But He doesn't.

What this means, is that He either opts to never grant these two requests, (or), maybe He answers no prayer, and the ones you state He answered, He really doesn't, and all such conclusions were instead 'chance', hard work paying off', or something else human related.

So again, if God never answered petitionary/intercessory prayer, would humans ever know?

 

[cvanwey]

Lol it usually happens when people insist on clinging to untenable positions.

You sir, are the one maintaining the untenable position. You state God answered some of your prayers. This is an assertion/claim. If you cannot demonstrate how you know this, then my original post, to you, stands (i.e.)

When things go your way, God gets the glory. When things do not go your way, God knows best. You can't loose Which then begs the question (unaddressed/unanswered), why is it, that 100% of the time, God never answers the call for amputees and people with Down's syndrome?

 

[BigV]

No, He didn't.

Yes, Jesus absolutely has made a promise on how a prayer is supposed to work. But, since the prayer doesn't work, Christians came up with all sorts of 'definitions' where the text doesn't mean what it says.

Mark 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Well, lets see. This text, very conveniently for Christians, doesn't apply to modern Christians when they pray for anything that ends up failing. But, when a Christian, who gets sick with incurable illness, gets healed, then, voila, Mark 11:24 is literal again and surely does apply to modern Christians.

. I've been round and round and round with cvanwey and bigv on this issue over the last several months, and I'm not going over it again.

Clearly your position makes perfect sense. That's the position I would have taken too, had I remained a Christian.