What does it mean to be 'baptized'?

[BornAgainChristian1]

Scripture doesn't confirm that, and we are talking about doctrine. Otherwise, I like much of what you've been writing.

Yes mostly biblical statutes and precepts you don't comprehend.

 

[Albion]

Yes mostly biblical statutes and precepts you don't comprehend.

I do so dislike trying to have a civil conversation with someone prefers insults to dialogue, so it's bye-bye for now.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

I do so dislike trying to have a civil conversation with someone prefers insults to dialogue, so it's bye-bye for now.

Yes it's a shame some need to be reminded that the things they say aren't true. It's what happens when one steps into a ongoing conversation. Sorry you think it was an insult

 

[StanJ]

Are you saying a person must be baptized by the Holy Spirit for the remission of sins? I've only heard that from pentecostal denominations and pentecostalism wasn't invented until the early 20th century. There's no way every Christian misunderstood an essential teaching of Christianity for 1,900 years.

No I am not nor did I even imply it. I know for a fact you've never heard that from any Pentecostal domination either.
You would actually have to know what every Christian denomination understood in the past 1900 years, which would be impossible. I think you are best to focus on what the Bible says now instead of trying to assert that you know what was in dead people's minds going back 2000 years.

I was explaining how I knew what the early Christians believed. See John 3:5 for scriptural corroboration. If you want evidence of what the early church taught, here is Justin Martyr writing about 70 years after the apostles:
"for the remission of their sins that are past... they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, Unless you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. John 3:5... we have learned from the apostles this reason... may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed (Justin Martyr, First Apology, Ch. 61)"

John 3:5 is not talking about baptism of water it's talking about physical birth and spiritual birth. Jesus actually qualifies verse 5 if you would read verse 6. If this is indeed what Justin Martyr was teaching back then then of course he would have been wrong because it wasn't what Jesus taught and it wasn't what Luke, or Paul, or Peter taught. Hebrew 9:22 tells us that our sins are remitted by the blood of Jesus and that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Justin Martyr's writings are not considered scripture so please show us where in scripture it says that our sins are remitted by the washing of water?

Although water is the normal method I agree a person can be saved without water.

You've already been shown more than once that water does not save. Only Jesus by his shed blood does.

Understood. You think one belief + one work is all that's necessary for salvation.

There will be no further discussion with you if you continue to prevaricate about what I say. It's very simple to quote what I say here so please do so and not try to reword what I post.

How do you know? I know you can't be right because it would contradict other verses in scripture.

Because I have been studying the Bible for over 45 years. You think I can't be right but obviously you don't know the Bible so you can't be 100% sure. What other verses are you alluding to that would be contradicted?

I agree it is the same faith. If you repent and live for God as a result of your faith, it will save you. If you don't live for God and refuse to do God's will, your faith won't save you. When i wrote dead faith I simply meant that your faith won't save you if you don't obey the commandments and do God's will.

Our faith doesn't save us, Jesus saves us. Our faith is what we use to assure us that Jesus does save us and if our faith is real then it will produce good works.

 

[StanJ]

Leviticus 5:17 "If anyone sins and does what is forbidden ... - Bible Hub
biblehub.com/leviticus/5-17.htm
Bible Hub
New International Version "If anyone sins and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, even though they do not know it, they are guilty.....

The New Covenant is not subject to the levitical laws of the old Covenant.

 

[samir]

Actually that is not biblical and you just contradicted you first claim.


That is another false belief that is not biblical. I'm not one of the "us" like you that states unbiblical claims. Nor do I contradict myself as you continually do.


Apparently according to your claims they are beyond your comprehension because of your contradictory erroneous claims.

If you feel like people are always contradicting themselves then perhaps the problem is your ability to think logically which may be due to pride.

“God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble. (James 4:6, 1 Peter 5:5)”

 

[samir]

According to who?

The dictionary.

I've quoted many verses in this thread perhaps you should read it instead of making false accusations.

"“Judge not, that you be not judged. (Matthew 7:1, NKJV)"

 

[samir]

Leviticus 5:17 "If anyone sins and does what is forbidden ... - Bible Hub
biblehub.com/leviticus/5-17.htm
Bible Hub
New International Version "If anyone sins and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, even though they do not know it, they are guilty.....

Guilty of what? The context suggests they are guilty of disobeying the law of Moses.

Do you really believe 2 year old children who sin are guilty of sin and in need of salvation? Do you really think they will go to hell for their sins?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

That is definitely true because a person isn't guilty of sin unless he knowingly consents to it.
............ ??????????................................ ????????????????............... ?????????

 

[HannahElizaW]

I have heard arguments for it being a requirement, as well as not, so what's the deal?

Is it something a christian -must- do? As a requirement for salvation?

Or is it more for show-and-tell?

(Wasn't sure where to post, let me know if I need to move.)

Though I'm not very well educated on this particular topic, from what I know, relying on baptism is not what whether you go to Heaven or Hell is balanced on. Because what about those on their deathbeds who won't be able to/aren't able to do so? They really can't! But baptism is, in my views, an outward show of an inward change. And is necessary among your walk with Christ.

So... are you going to Hell for trusting in Christ but not getting baptized? No... but with exclusions to specific circumstances (i.e. as previously mentioned), you are called to be baptized after salvation as an outer show of an inner change...

 

[Sketcher]

So, correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like it is for show. It isn't required by God, but is required by church (man?)

Jesus said we should be baptized. (Mark 16:16, Matthew 28:19)

So, let's say, where I live the only church within reasonable distance is one I am not too interested in joining.
Am I to get baptized here anyway? Since it is required?

You would need to find a church that you would attend. We're supposed to attend church as well as be baptized.

To everyone :

Is there a chance that the word 'baptize' may not always mean the act of being submerged in water?

What I mean is... could it be metaphorical? A symbol for a state of mind, rather than actually being put under water?

No, "baptism" in the pre-Christian days was used to describe what happened to the crews of ships that sank in naval battles. It means immersion. Though in extenuating circumstances, it may be avoided. For instance, a friend of mine tragically had a stroke as a complication of heart surgery that was made necessary by a genetic condition. That stroke rendered him bound to a wheelchair, and he packed on an obscene amount of weight; he can't move very well anymore. He wanted to be baptized. Since they couldn't get him into the pool, they used a bucket over his head, he didn't get all wet. So the exception would come into play if you want to but can't, as opposed to not doing so because you don't want to or it's inconvenient. That is sometimes called "baptism by desire."

So, it isn't such a bad thing to find a church I feel comfortable joining, -before- being baptized?

If you're being diligent about it, I would agree with that. Out of curiosity, who/what led you to Christ? Are there any Christian friends or relatives that you have in your life (CF does not count)? Can you go to church with them?

 

[samir]

No I am not nor did I even imply it.

I quoted Acts 2:38 which says be baptized for the remission of sins and you said it's referring to Holy Spirit baptism so you clearly claimed or strongly implied that a person must be baptized by the Holy Spirit for the remission of sins.

I know for a fact you've never heard that from any Pentecostal domination either.

You're wrong.

You would actually have to know what every Christian denomination understood in the past 1900 years, which would be impossible.

Incorrect. All I need to know is the evidence from their writings. I've read all the ECFs and none of them agree with you.

I think you are best to focus on what the Bible says now instead of trying to assert that you know what was in dead people's minds going back 2000 years.

Based on the bible alone, I believe my understanding is correct and consistent with scripture so why should I accept your interpretations?

John 3:5 is not talking about baptism of water it's talking about physical birth and spiritual birth.

Interesting interpretation but I don't agree with it. How can a person be physically reborn a second time?

Jesus actually qualifies verse 5 if you would read verse 6.

I read the entire gospel of John multiple times.

If this is indeed what Justin Martyr was teaching back then then of course he would have been wrong because it wasn't what Jesus taught and it wasn't what Luke, or Paul, or Peter taught.

Not just Justin Martyr but the entire church believed it. Why should I accept your personal novel interpretation instead of the understanding of those taught by the apostles' themselves?

Hebrew 9:22 tells us that our sins are remitted by the blood of Jesus and that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.

I agree 100%.

Justin Martyr's writings are not considered scripture so please show us where in scripture it says that our sins are remitted by the washing of water?

Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21, John 3:5

You've already been shown more than once that water does not save.

Where? Who proved 1 Peter 3:21 was wrong?

There will be no further discussion with you if you continue to prevaricate about what I say. It's very simple to quote what I say here so please do so and not try to reword what I post.

You said you believe Rom 10:9-10 is all that's necessary for salvation. That passage says one belief + one work.

Because I have been studying the Bible for over 45 years. You think I can't be right but obviously you don't know the Bible so you can't be 100% sure.

You can't be 100% sure either. The fact that Christians from every century agree with me make me more sure than believing a novel interpretation unheard of for well over 1,000 years.

What other verses are you alluding to that would be contradicted?

There are so many I don't know where to begin but Acts 2:38 is clear enough that repenting is necessary.

Our faith doesn't save us, Jesus saves us. Our faith is what we use to assure us that Jesus does save us and if our faith is real then it will produce good works.

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying Jesus will save you even if you don't have any faith?

 

[samir]

That is definitely true because a person isn't guilty of sin unless he knowingly consents to it.
............ ??????????................................ ????????????????............... ?????????

I thought everyone here knew God was just so I'm really surprised you objected.

I noticed you didn't answer my question. Do you think a 3 year old child will go to hell because he unknowingly disobeyed God?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I thought everyone here knew God was just so I'm really surprised you objected.

You do realize that this forum is wide open to the world, and the world is 97% not knowing God but opposed to Him ? (conservatively, perhaps optimistically)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

To consider: Before he was born >
Malachi 1 GW - “I Loved Jacob, but Esau I Hated” - Bible Gateway
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Malachi+1...
BibleGateway.com
I Loved Jacob, but Esau I Hated” - This is a divine revelation. The LORD spoke his word to Israel through Malachi.

Hebrews 12:16 - Bible Gateway
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Hebrews 12:16
BibleGateway.com
That no one may become guilty of sexual vice, or become a profane (godless and sacrilegious) person as Esau did

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

If you feel like people are always contradicting themselves then perhaps the problem is your ability to think logically which may be due to pride.

“God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble. (James 4:6, 1 Peter 5:5)”

You need to read your first sentence on you last confusion claim. Let me quote your correct claim "It's not grace plus baptism. It's grace alone." Then from that point on contradiction after contradiction.

"It works the same way with infants as it does with adults. If they die with God's grace they go to heaven. If not, they don't. None of us knows whether unbaptized infants will die with God's grace."

So if by grace alone why bring your fallacy of baptism into the conversation is you just said by GRACE ALONE? Make up your double mindedness.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

The dictionary.




"“Judge not, that you be not judged. (Matthew 7:1, NKJV)"

Oh I thought we were speaking about God's word apparently you have more faith in mans opinion. BTW why do those that can't explain themselves always misquote scripture? If you read the prior chapter you see that your misquote verse is meant for the unsaved.......so are you saying I'm unsaved?

So I'll repeat this because obviously it more scripture I quoted and you missed....

1 Cor 6:1-11 1If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church!a 5I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6But instead, one brother goes to law against another—and this in front of unbelievers!7The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers.9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Leviticus 19:15 15 ¶ Ye shall not do unjustly in judgment: Thou shalt not favor the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty, but thou shalt judge thy neighbor justly.

1 Cor 2:11-16 Judge all things
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1 Corinthians 2:14-16 Judge all things (We have the mind of Christ)
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

2 Cor 11:1-4 False Preachers
1. Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Eph 5:11 Works of Darkness
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.


Luke 6:37 ¶ Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.
38 Give, and it shall be given unto you: a good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over shall men give into your bosom: for with what measure ye mete, with the same shall men mete to you again.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

To consider: Before he was born >
Malachi 1 GW - “I Loved Jacob, but Esau I Hated” - Bible Gateway
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Malachi+1...
BibleGateway.com
I Loved Jacob, but Esau I Hated” - This is a divine revelation. The LORD spoke his word to Israel through Malachi.

Hebrews 12:16 - Bible Gateway

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Hebrews 12:16
BibleGateway.com
That no one may become guilty of sexual vice, or become a profane (godless and sacrilegious) person as Esau did

This is what the verse states...

16 Let there be no fornicator, or profane person as Esau, which for one portion of meat sold his birthright.

Notice the "OR" which only accuses Esau for being profane by being tricked into selling his birthright to Jacob the supplanter (to take the place of another, as through force, scheming, strategy, or the like) for a bowl of pottage. Which one of the brothers was wrong?

 

[samir]

You do realize that this forum is wide open to the world, and the world is 97% not knowing God but opposed to Him ? (conservatively, perhaps optimistically)

This section of the forums is for Christians only. I noticed you evaded the question I asked again. Are you unable to answer?

 

[samir]

You need to read your first sentence on you last confusion claim. Let me quote your correct claim "It's not grace plus baptism. It's grace alone." Then from that point on contradiction after contradiction.

"It works the same way with infants as it does with adults. If they die with God's grace they go to heaven. If not, they don't. None of us knows whether unbaptized infants will die with God's grace."

So if by grace alone why bring your fallacy of baptism into the conversation is you just said by GRACE ALONE? Make up your double mindedness.

Are you saying faith is not necessary for salvation? No need to pray or ask God for forgiveness either? Because grace ALONE is all you need? BTW, there was no contradiction in what I posted. That's you misunderstanding. Everyone with grace goes to heaven, everyone without it does not. Got it now?