What does it mean for God to "exist"?

[AV1611VET]

Not the same as me doing it.

That is so true!

That's why it's called a vicarious sacrifice.

 

[Asvin]

That is so true!

That's why it's called a vicarious sacrifice.

Ok.

 

[Michael]

Can you please define the word "exist" first.

Must I?

I'm using the term in the standard way. Does the sun "exist"?

In a very tangtible way, God as described in that thread has a 'real' body composed of very "real" objects. Whereas our bodies give out in a hundred years or so at best case, AFAIK the universe has existed forever and will continue to exist forever.

 

[Michael]

Bill Clinton It Depends on what the meaning of the word is is - YouTube

LOL! Thanks for the giggle.

 

[Asvin]

Must I?

I'm using the term in the standard way. Does the sun "exist"?

In a very tangtible way, God as described in that thread has a 'real' body composed of very "real" objects. Whereas our bodies give out in a hundred years or so at best case, AFAIK the universe has existed forever and will continue to exist forever.

If you are going to say that god exists then you have to define the words "god" and "exist" in an unambiguous way!

 

[Michael]

So you define "exists" to agree with whatever you have in your mind in each case.

Other than "in your mind", exactly how do you 'exist'? If you explain how you 'exist', I'm sure I can explain to you how our physical universe, AKA God 'exists'.

 

[Michael]

On a sunshiny day we can empirically measure photons and particles being hurled at the Earth by the Sun.

Oh you mean you can "feel" and "see" the presence of the God described in that thread?

We can also measure the nature of the Sun itself using empirical methods. So where is the empirical measurements for God?

From my perspective, you just answered your own question.

 

[Asvin]

Other than "in your mind", exactly how do you 'exist'? If you explain how you 'exist', I'm sure I can explain to you how our physical universe, AKA God 'exists'.

How do I exist? Simple! I have shape and a location. I am an object. I am distinguishable from my background, which is space, and I have a static distance from other objects.

The universe is NOT PHYSICAL! "The Universe" is a concept that relates planets, stars, etc. It is a concept that relates several objects. How can a concept be physical?

 

[Michael]

If you are going to say that god exists then you have to define the words "god" and "exist" in an unambiguous way!

I spent the better part of two threads describing God in those threads I cited for you. You might want to peruse them a bit. I fail to see how the idea is either complicated or ambiguous in any empirically physical way.

 

[Asvin]

I spent the better part of two threads describing God in those threads I cited for you. You might want to peruse them a bit. I fail to see how the idea is either complicated or ambiguous in any empirically physical way.

You say that the universe, which is a concept, is alive! How is that possible?

 

[Loudmouth]

Oh you mean you can "feel" and "see" the presence of the God described in that thread?

No, measure photons and high energy particles. Photons and high energy particles are not supernatural deities.

From my perspective, you just answered your own question.

Your perspective makes God into deterministic math equations. You might as well ask a rock to forgive your sins.

 

[Michael]

You say that the universe, which is a concept, is alive! How is that possible?

It's electromagnetic nature gives rise to awareness, just as the electromagnet circuits of a brain give rise to awareness. Is a sun a concept? Is a galaxy a concept? Is an observed collection of galaxies a concept? What exactly *isn't* a "concept" of awareness?

 

[Michael]

No, measure photons and high energy particles. Photons and high energy particles are not supernatural deities.

I didn't say a word about "supernatural" entities like inflation, dark energy and dark matter. That's your gig, not mine. You're still measuring "God output" from my perspective.

Your perspective makes God into deterministic math equations. You might as well ask a rock to forgive your sins.

Actually 'God' determines the math equations. Considering everything is a part of God, including every rock, I suppose the last part of your statement has some validity to it.

 

[Loudmouth]

I didn't say a word about "supernatural" entities like inflation, dark energy and dark matter. That's your gig, not mine. You're still measuring "God output" from my perspective.

Those are not supernatural entities, no matter how hard you try to pretend they are. They are quantifiable and detectable through empirical means.

Actually 'God' determines the math equations.

Then we are not talking about the same thing. The Sun does not determine the math equations for the photons and energetic particles that it sends hurling towards the Earth.

Considering everything is a part of God, including every rock, I suppose the last part of your statement has some validity to it.

Please show that they are a part of God.

 

[Loudmouth]

It's electromagnetic nature gives rise to awareness, just as the electromagnet circuits of a brain give rise to awareness.

Evidence please.

 

[Asvin]

It's electromagnetic nature gives rise to awareness, just as the electromagnet circuits of a brain give rise to awareness. Is a sun a concept? Is a galaxy a concept? Is an observed collection of galaxies a concept? What exactly *isn't* a "concept" of awareness?

What exactly isn't a concept of awareness? Humans, monkeys, plants, mountains, sand, etc. If you are basically saying that all things the word universe refers to is a part of god and they are all collectively god, then I have no objection to your definition of god. Just out of curiosity, why does your faith symbol say you are a christian if you believe such "blasphemous" things?

 

[DaneaFL]

I think for sometimes to 'exist' it must have some kind of effect on reality. If the thing doesn't have any perceivable presence in the universe then it is indistinguishable from something that doesn't exist.

An example would be a god. Does this god thing answer prayer? cause disasters? cure diseases? perform miracles? Does it have any effect on this universe? if not then you must say it does not exist.

So far no supernatural entity has had any measurable effect on reality so we hold the position that none exists until proven otherwise.

 

[juvenissun]

Anything I think about IS the product of my brain. They are known as concepts. I agree that other things can have an impact on me, but what does that have anything to do with the existence of god or your irrational claim that love exists?

That might be the God.

 

[Michael]

What exactly isn't a concept of awareness? Humans, monkeys, plants, mountains, sand, etc.

Well then, suns, galaxies and whatnot are not simply a concept of awareness. A sun is as "real" as anything else on your list.

If you are basically saying that all things the word universe refers to is a part of god and they are all collectively god, then I have no objection to your definition of god.

Gee, thanks.

Just out of curiosity, why does your faith symbol say you are a christian if you believe such "blasphemous" things?

I am a "Christian" because Jesus is my Lord, and my personal savior (from selfishness). I honor and respect his teachings. In fact Jesus himself explained that the Kingdom of Heaven is *within* us, and that we are all one *in* God. There is nothing "blasphemous" about it.

“I ask for those who will believe in my name, that they may all be one, just as you Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me” (Jn 17:20-21).

 

[Michael]

I think for sometimes to 'exist' it must have some kind of effect on reality. If the thing doesn't have any perceivable presence in the universe then it is indistinguishable from something that doesn't exist.

Fortunately many folks report being "touched/changed" by God.

An example would be a god. Does this god thing answer prayer?

Is "no" an acceptable answer in your opinion?

cause disasters?

God both gives and takes away what we call 'life'.

cure diseases?

Many folks attribute their regained health to "miracles".

perform miracles?

See above.

So far no supernatural entity has had any measurable effect on reality so we hold the position that none exists until proven otherwise.

By your same logic, dark matter, dark energy and inflation are all "supernatural entities" that have no tangible effect on anything in any controlled experiment. Are they "real" or "imagined" forces of nature?