What does it matter?

[Uphill Battle]

I am trying to understand how this is Biblical.
I don't understand.

Every grace (what does that mean?)
is communicated (meaning?)
to this world, ...
being dispensed (given)
FROM God
TO Christ
From Christ
TO Mary
FROM Mary to us.

Seeing as in scripture we are told we can come before the throne of God ourselves, because of what Christ did for us, the God to Christ to Mary dispensation of Grace rings EXTREMELY false.

 

[sunlover1]

Seeing as in scripture we are told we can come before the throne of God ourselves, because of what Christ did for us, the God to Christ to Mary dispensation of Grace rings EXTREMELY false.

I thought it went like this.
God's will,
through Christ,
Manifested to us by the Holy Spirit.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
anyone.

 

[Benedicta00]

First off, this is not a thread where I intend this to be an argument about Marain doctrines, whether true or false. In fact, for the purpose of this thread, we shall assume that they ARE true.

now, if they ARE true, what does it matter?

to the average Christian, who does not adhere to those teachings, tell me how rejecting them

1 Affects there salvation in any way shape or form
2 Affects their walk with Christ in any way shape or form
3 Affects there eternity in any way shape or form.

near as I can tell, not adhering to Marian Dogmas, true or not, have no real effect on the spiritual condition of the individual believer.

what, if any effects does holding believes contrary to those teachings are there? bear in mind, this thread presupposes that they are true, whether or not I believe them.

Because before we were even made, God had this plan. His plan was to share His divine life of grace with us so that we would not be salves to a master but children of God.

What compelled God to sahre his life with us was love and out of love he made us and here is what happened in heaven;

1And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars:

2And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered.
3And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns: and on his head seven diadems:
4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son.
5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne.
6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, that there they should feed her a thousand two hundred sixty days.
7And there was a great battle in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels:
8And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
10And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: because the accuser of our brethren is cast forth, who accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of the testimony, and they loved not their lives unto death.
12Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you that dwell therein. Woe to the earth, and to the sea, because the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time.
13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman, who brought forth the man child:
14And there were given to the woman two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the desert unto her place, where she is nourished for a time and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15And the serpent cast out of his mouth after the woman, water as it were a river; that he might cause her to be carried away by the river.
16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the river, which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
18And he stood upon the sand of the sea.

Mary was predestined from the beginning to be God's mother so he could come down to earth and become one of us so the we could become one with Him. The devil could not stand for this so he rebelled taking a third of the stars with him. St. Micheal kicked his butt all the way out of heaven and he came down to us here, to wage war on us, the children of God.

So the importance of these doctrines is becuase God's plan never changed, Mary was always to be His mother sinless and reserved just for him.

She lived in the world but Mary was never of the world, she was what we all are to become. She was on earth as we are to be in heaven, truly one with God, how we were originally created to be.

It's important becuase theosis is important, these dogmas matter because they are a true reflection of the heaven that waits us all.

Now I gave you an answer, if you disagree with it for what ever reason, so be it but don't say I didn't get this from scripture dude.

 

[sunlover1]

Because before we were even made, God had this plan. His plan was to share His divine life of grace with us so that we would not be salves to a master but children of God.

What compelled God to sahre his life with us was love and out of love he made us and here is what happened in heaven;



Mary was predestined from the beginning to be God's mother so he could come down to earth and become one of us so the we could become one with Him. The devil could not stand for this so he rebelled taking a third of the stars with him. St. Micheal kicked his butt all the way out of heaven and he came down to us here, to wage war on us, the children of God.

So the importance of these doctrines is becuase God's plan never changed, Mary was always to be His mother sinless and reserved just for him.

She lived in the world but Mary was never of the world, she was what we all are to become. She was on earth as we are to be in heaven, truly one with God, how we were originally created to be.

It's important becuase theosis is important, these dogmas matter because they are a true reflection of the heaven that waits us all.

Now I gave you an answer, if you disagree with it for what ever reason, so be it but don't say I didn't get this from scripture dude.

You did give us Scripture, but what you quoted only contains a bit about mary.

IN your commentary you add things that are not found in the Word though.
Sinless?
That's not in there Benedicta.
Mary is blessed among women, but
it nowhere says she was sinless.

 

[Benedicta00]

You did give us Scripture, but what you quoted only contains a bit about mary.

IN your commentary you add things that are not found in the Word though.
Sinless?
That's not in there Benedicta.
Mary is blessed among women, but
it nowhere says she was sinless.

Luke 1.. Genesis 3... it is in there.

 

[sunlover1]

Luke 1.. Genesis 3... it is in there.

That Mary was sinless?
Where?
I didn't see it in Genesis,
and there is a lot about
Mary in Luke, but I didn't
see what your talking about.

 

[Rhamiel]

Originally Posted by Iollain
"If the Marian dogmas are true then the Chruch is the RCC.
If they are not true then this Mary attention is blasphemy against God"

Not necessarily, we disagree about what God has done for Mary, even if they were false it would not be blasphemy, just a misunderstanding. I in no way believe that they are false though, just a hypothetical. Could God have saved Mary from the stain of sin through retroactive grace? Yes. Could God have lifted Mary into heaven? Yes (he did it with Elijah) So even if it is false I do not think it would be considered blashphamy. Co

 

[HisKid1973]

anyone who does not have Mary for his mother, does not have God for his father[/U]. This is why the reprobate, such as heretics and schismatics, who hate, despise or ignore the Blessed Virgin, do not have God for their father though they arrogantly claim they have, because they do not have Mary for their mother. Indeed if they had her for their mother they would love and honour her as good and true children naturally love and honour the mother who gave them life. An infallible and unmistakable sign by which we can distinguish a heretic, a man of false doctrine, an enemy of God, from one of God's true friends is that the heretic and the hardened sinner show nothing but contempt and indifference for our Lady. He endeavours by word and example, openly or insidiously - sometimes under specious pretexts - to belittle the love and veneration shown to her. God the Father has not told Mary to dwell in them because they are, alas, other Esaus.
Is she one and the same as the Holy Spirit? more on that later...
Looks like we better start worrying according to de montfort (true devotions)

Wow. That is really out there..Is this from a legitimate catholic site?

 

[sunlover1]

Wow. That is really out there..Is this from a legitimate catholic site?

Here's a link.

Some things I just don't understand
Even in context...

76. Moreover, if, as I have said, the Blessed Virgin is the Queen and Sovereign of heaven and earth, does she not then have as many subjects and slaves as there are creatures? "All things, including Mary herself, are subject to the power of God. All things, God included, are subject to the Virgin's power", so we are told by St. Anselm, St. Bernard, St. Bernardine and St. Bonaventure.

 

[IamAdopted]

Quote:
76. Moreover, if, as I have said, the Blessed Virgin is the Queen and Sovereign of heaven and earth, does she not then have as many subjects and slaves as there are creatures? "All things, including Mary herself, are subject to the power of God. All things, God included, are subject to the Virgin's power", so we are told by St. Anselm, St. Bernard, St. Bernardine and St. Bonaventure.

Putting Mary above God..Giving Power to a Human even above her Creator and then saying they dont worship Mary, They only venerate her? They try to say that she is equal to God.. She was a mere human being created from the seed of Man. She is not divine.

 

[Iollain]

Seeing as in scripture we are told we can come before the throne of God ourselves, because of what Christ did for us, the God to Christ to Mary dispensation of Grace rings EXTREMELY false.

yikes

St. Thomas taught that the Blessed Virgin Mary “must be shown every honor, preached and praised, and invoked by us in our every need.” [2] She was for him the Mediatrix of all grace. “It is necessary,” St. Thomas tells us, “that whosoever desires to obtain favors with God, should approach this mediatrix, approach her with a most devout heart because, since she is the Queen of Mercy, possessing everything in the kingdom of God's justice, she cannot refuse your petition.” [3] Making the thought of St. Bernard his own St. Thomas reflects that no refusal can exist in the presence of the exceeding charity of her pierced and immaculate heart together with the pierced side and wounds of her Son. “Hence it is,” says St. Thomas, “that the Apostle speaking to the Hebrews (4:16) said, let us go therefore, with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace in seasonable aid. For of Mary it has been truly written, . . . In me is all grace of the way. . . . Therefore, come over to me, all ye that desire me, and be filled with my fruits ” (Ecclus 24:24). [4]
http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/mcbride/mcbrideaquinas.htm

 

[IamAdopted]

yikes

St. Thomas taught that the Blessed Virgin Mary “must be shown every honor, preached and praised, and invoked by us in our every need.” [2] She was for him the Mediatrix of all grace. “It is necessary,” St. Thomas tells us, “that whosoever desires to obtain favors with God, should approach this mediatrix, approach her with a most devout heart because, since she is the Queen of Mercy, possessing everything in the kingdom of God's justice, she cannot refuse your petition.” [3] Making the thought of St. Bernard his own St. Thomas reflects that no refusal can exist in the presence of the exceeding charity of her pierced and immaculate heart together with the pierced side and wounds of her Son. “Hence it is,” says St. Thomas, “that the Apostle speaking to the Hebrews (4:16) said, let us go therefore, with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace in seasonable aid. For of Mary it has been truly written, . . . In me is all grace of the way. . . . Therefore, come over to me, all ye that desire me, and be filled with my fruits ” (Ecclus 24:24). [4]
http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/mcbride/mcbrideaquinas.htm

I would say yikes...

 

[StTherese]

How can you not see that Mary is pointing to Christ? That the veneration of Mary comes from the sole fact that she is HIS mother?? She does not take away from her Son, but leads us to HIM!

 

[IamAdopted]

How can you not see that Mary is pointing to Christ? That the veneration of Mary comes from the sole fact that she is HIS mother?? She does not take away from her Son, but leads us to HIM!

It is not Mary that Leads us to Christ but the drawing of the Holy Spirit and the Father.. He is the one whom gives us to Christ. Jesus even said of His Father all that you have given me I have lost not one..

 

[StTherese]

It is not Mary that Leads us to Christ but the drawing of the Holy Spirit and the Father.. He is the one whom gives us to Christ. Jesus even said of His Father all that you have given me I have lost not one..

Yes, but the Holy Spirit uses specific means of drawing us...
Are there not others in your life who have lead you to Christ or a more fuller understanding of Him...like maybe your pastor?

 

[IamAdopted]

Yes, but the Holy Spirit uses specific means of drawing us...
Are there not others in your life who have lead you to Christ or a more fuller understanding of Him...like maybe your pastor?

The Pastor has lead me to the written word of God. God drew me to Christ..

 

[Iollain]

Yes, but the Holy Spirit uses specific means of drawing us...
Are there not others in your life who have lead you to Christ or a more fuller understanding of Him...like maybe your pastor?

The Holy Spirit does not give Mary names and titles of Christ and try to take His place in so many things, the Holy Spirit also does not dwell in someone with the Mary Spirit.

 

[sunlover1]

How can you not see that Mary is pointing to Christ? That the veneration of Mary comes from the sole fact that she is HIS mother??

She is!
And blessed is she among women!
But Jesus may not desire that we
'venerate' her to such a degree.

The Bible shows what He would say had
someone made a big deal of her.
He kind of changed the subject.

Someone says, 'WOW, blessed is that woman!'
He don't say "Woo Hoo, everyone
give her a big round of applause, take
a bow mary etc".

He says 'hey, Look over here, God is more important!'
ACTUALLY, he says the Word of God, and
obedience.

Have a blessed day

 

[StTherese]

She is!
And blessed is she among women!
But Jesus may not desire that we
'venerate' her to such a degree.

The Bible shows what He would say had
someone made a big deal of her.
He kind of changed the subject.

Someone says, 'WOW, blessed is that woman!'
He don't say "Woo Hoo, everyone
give her a big round of applause, take
a bow mary etc".

He says 'hey, Look over here, God is more important!'
ACTUALLY, he says the Word of God, and
obedience.

Have a blessed day

You are right. And I don't know any Catholic that would say Mary is MORE important than God...

Christ only confirmed that Mary was blessed by doing the will of the Father and not only because she was chosen by God (to bear His Son) but because she cooperated with His will.

 

[IamAdopted]

The Holy Spirit does not give Mary names and titles of Christ and try to take His place in so many things, the Holy Spirit also does not dwell in someone with the Mary Spirit.

The Mary spirit? I must have missed something along the way..