What does it matter?

[OrthodoxyUSA]

First off, this is not a thread where I intend this to be an argument about Marain doctrines, whether true or false. In fact, for the purpose of this thread, we shall assume that they ARE true.

now, if they ARE true, what does it matter?

to the average Christian, who does not adhere to those teachings, tell me how rejecting them

1 Affects there salvation in any way shape or form
2 Affects their walk with Christ in any way shape or form
3 Affects there eternity in any way shape or form.

near as I can tell, not adhering to Marian Dogmas, true or not, have no real effect on the spiritual condition of the individual believer.

what, if any effects does holding believes contrary to those teachings are there? bear in mind, this thread presupposes that they are true, whether or not I believe them.

Q. How far from truth does Satan have to steer us in order to get us to turn against one another?

A. Even one degree off on a compass can cause you to miss an Island in the Ocean.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

It's not how these truths effect ones personal salvation as if we were alone in the world. It's how we use these truths against each other that effect our personal salvation.

When we use something against someone else we not only hurt them, but ourselves and the entire cosmos with us.

That is why it matters.

Lord have mercy on us all.

Forgive me...

 

[benedictine]

So Mary was created without free will? She did not HAVE to agree...she CHOSE to accept God's will!

Exactly, Mary is very important. She reversed Eve's curse. She fullfilled the very first prophecy in scripture. She was the dorway for the entrence of the king of kings into this world.

 

[Ysabel]

Mary gave birth to Jesus...raised Him as her son, kissed his boo boo's and all those things good moms do.

But Jesus is our Savior. He's the one who keeps us from sin, death and hell.

Mary's important, and blessed, and all those good things ...

What's all the fuss about?

 

[GraceLikeRainFallsDown]

I think this has to be the first 9 page thread I have read where very few have actually answered the original post.

I thought the question was very interesting. I looked forward to hear the opinion of people of the Catholic faith.

I am not sure I read a clear answer. I only saw more debating which I do not think was the OP intent.

I thought we were to assume the Marian Doctrines were true and answer how rejecting them if true would:

"1 Affects there salvation in any way shape or form
2 Affects their walk with Christ in any way shape or form
3 Affects there eternity in any way shape or form."

I would really be interest in a simple answer from someone of the Catholic faith.

My personal opinion, I do not see how rejecting the Marian Doctrines (assuming they are TRUE) could affect our eternity/salvation or our individual relationships with Christ. It is clear from the Bible that Christ is the only way to the Father. There is no mention that I have to have a relationship with Mary for salvation. I can have a fulfilling walk with Christ and follow his commands without following the Mary doctrines I know of.

Just my opinion.

 

[repentant]

I asked as to what Doctrines he was reffering to, and I don't recall seeing an asnwer....if it's Catholic he is reffering to, then I won't answer..if he talks about Orthodox Doctrines, then I would answer..

 

[Uphill Battle]

I asked as to what Doctrines he was reffering to, and I don't recall seeing an asnwer....if it's Catholic he is reffering to, then I won't answer..if he talks about Orthodox Doctrines, then I would answer..

Ok then, for the sake of Orthodox beliefs, the blamelessness of Mary, as in commiting no personal sin.

 

[repentant]

Ok then, for the sake of Orthodox beliefs, the blamelessness of Mary, as in commiting no personal sin.

Well the EOC believes she could have sinned, but chose not to. We differ in the sinlessness of Mary from the RCC because they believe she was born without original sin, another view that we EOC and RCC differ. We believe people are born not with the stain of original sin, but the consequence of it. RCC believes people are born with the sin itself. So they believe Mary was immacuality concieved without original sin (their view), and we do not. One must ask the question then, why if Mary, was born without sin, why would she need a Savior?

And Mary said:
"My soul glorifies the Lord
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior

Our belief that she chose not to sin in life is a long standing belief of the Church, in which has been passed down.

Now to answer your 3 questions from the OP. it really doesn't affect any of it. But it is good to believe and teach the Truth about people, especially the Mother of God.

 

[NewToLife]

Ok then, for the sake of Orthodox beliefs, the blamelessness of Mary, as in commiting no personal sin.

This isn't actually Orthodox dogma, it's a pious belief held by most Orthodox, nevertheless it is not dogma.

 

[repentant]

Yea, also it's not Dogma..

But like was mentioned before..regardless if believing it hinder's our salvation or not, it is the fact that one little thing off, leads to other little things, that lead to big things.

 

[setmeonfire]

1 Affects there salvation in any way shape or form

my .02 not believing doesnt afect anything. believing does. christ was the attonment for our sins.


2 Affects their walk with Christ in any way shape or form

none are like christ in any way shape form or attribute. to put anyone near his level is idolotry. whether its a golden calf or a person. so yes it wil affect your walk with christ.

3 Affects there eternity in any way shape or form.

God is plain when he says that no idolator will enter heaven. this is the reason of the second commandment. take it as a loving warning from god.

 

[repentant]

1 Affects there salvation in any way shape or form

my .02 not believing doesnt afect anything. believing does. christ was the attonment for our sins.

This doesn't make sense..

2 Affects their walk with Christ in any way shape or form

none are like christ in any way shape form or attribute. to put anyone near his level is idolotry. whether its a golden calf or a person. so yes it wil affect your walk with christ.

Correct, no one is like Christ..and not like this matter's because nobody puts anybody on the same level as Christ...but idolotry is worshing something as a god, that isn't God..

3 Affects there eternity in any way shape or form.

God is plain when he says that no idolator will enter heaven. this is the reason of the second commandment. take it as a loving warning from god.

Absolutly right...

 

[setmeonfire]

it affects their salvation because in acts its said that there is no other name other than jesus by which mena re to be saved. so to put your salvation in someones hands that really has no power over it will affect salvation. that is why the bible warns of future false christs or turn christ into the synonym "messiah" or savior. there is one savior, christ. thats the point i was getting at in my first response.

repentant, you say that no one is like christ, yet mary is given numerous titles and roles that christ has......mediator/medetrix*
dispenser of grace*/ god/christ dispense grace for its his to give

queen of heaven*/king of kings

advocate for sinners*/christ is referred to as advocate in the scriptures

intercessor*/intercessor

reconciler of god with man*/reconsiler(col.1:22)

trust for salvation*/ "trust in the lord" (proverbs 3)

please reconsider your statement that you think no on eis like christ for the titles with the "*" can be found in Alphonsus de Ligouri's (canonized saint and doctor of the church) "The Glories of Mary".

 

[setmeonfire]

the israelites just bowed to the calfs nevermind give them titles such as these. and god raised the babylonians as punishment....god does not change. its still offensive and WILL affect your salvation in every aspect.

 

[repentant]

it affects their salvation because in acts its said that there is no other name other than jesus by which mena re to be saved. so to put your salvation in someones hands that really has no power over it will affect salvation. that is why the bible warns of future false christs or turn christ into the synonym "messiah" or savior. there is one savior, christ. thats the point i was getting at in my first response.

Who claims we are saved by anyone else?

repentant, you say that no one is like christ, yet mary is given numerous titles and roles that christ has......mediator/medetrix*
dispenser of grace*/ god/christ dispense grace for its his to give

queen of heaven*/king of kings

advocate for sinners*/christ is referred to as advocate in the scriptures

intercessor*/intercessor

reconciler of god with man*/reconsiler(col.1:22)

trust for salvation*/ "trust in the lord" (proverbs 3)

please reconsider your statement that you think no on eis like christ for the titles with the "*" can be found in Alphonsus de Ligouri's (canonized saint and doctor of the church) "The Glories of Mary".

These are RCC titles. not shared for the most part by the EOC..but Queen of Heaven is Biblical, and as far as mediatrix...it says Jesus is the mediator from man to God..she is the mediator from man to Christ, (like we all can be when we pray for each other). This is also Biblical if you remember the Wedding at Canna..

 

[setmeonfire]

mary was alive at the wedding of cana. shes dead now. praying to her is called necromancy. its forbidden by god. and giving her any role in salvation is saying you can be saved by her. we dont need a mediator to get to the mediator. that makes no sense. and the wedding at cana is no prove at all that mary has any role in heaven for salvation mediation. that cenario of cana was not symbolic of anything, she just happened to be there. that is twisting and manipulating scripture into something it waqsnt meant for. if she is queen of heaven show me 1 text i nthe bible that says word for word "mary, IS the queen of heaven" or even just the phrase "mediator to christ" in refering to anyone. there are 0.

the queen of heaven is biblical. god raised jeremiah to warn judah to stop burning incense to her because it was enraging god. there was nothing positive about the queen of heaven when she was mentioned in the O.T. It was all bad.

 

[repentant]

mary was alive at the wedding of cana. shes dead now. praying to her is called necromancy. its forbidden by god. and giving her any role in salvation is saying you can be saved by her. we dont need a mediator to get to the mediator. that makes no sense. and the wedding at cana is no prove at all that mary has any role in heaven for salvation mediation. that cenario of cana was not symbolic of anything, she just happened to be there. that is twisting and manipulating scripture into something it waqsnt meant for. if she is queen of heaven show me 1 text i nthe bible that says word for word "mary, IS the queen of heaven" or even just the phrase "mediator to christ" in refering to anyone. there are 0.
the queen of heaven is biblical. god raised jeremiah to warn judah to stop burning incense to her because it was enraging god. there was nothing positive about the queen of heaven when she was mentioned in the O.T. It was all bad.

So you consider those who have passed on, and are with Christ, dead? I don't know about you, but my God is the God of the living, not the dead..

"And a great portent appeared in heaven, a Woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery. . . . he brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne. . . . Then the dragon was angry with the Woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus" (Rev. 12:1–2, 5, 17).



The Wedding in Canna was the fact that Jesus was not ready to begin His ministry, nor show Himself as God, but yet He did at the request of His mother because the Wedding party was in need. She mediated for them to Jesus.

And asking someone to pray for you, is having them mediate for you.."Pray for one another..the prayer's of a righteous man availeth much"..

 

[Rhamiel]

the "queen of heaven" in the O.T. was a false idol. of course it was negative, just like Baal was a false lord

 

[setmeonfire]

the "queen of heaven" in the O.T. was a false idol. of course it was negative, just like Baal was a false lord

my point exactly. and there are alot more similarities with the false lords of the old test. one only needs to research it themsleves or start another thread to talk of it.

So you consider those who have passed on, and are with Christ, dead? I don't know about you, but my God is the God of the living, not the dead..

scripture says we will be made like the angels correct? in revelation when john tries to bow to the angel, the angel tells him not to!

the second commandment says not to bow to any image or worship anything that is in heaven "for I am the lord your god, am a jealous god". now will you find anyone whorshipping anything other than God or an image to give "neberation to a protypte" and not being repromanded the god. its idolatry....

the wedding at canna is blown way out of proportion to mean more than it really does. why does no one see this? if you can interpret it that way, then why is it rejected to interpret in rev. when john is told by the angel not bow to him, that no one should bow down to anything but god. again in acts peter the supposed first pope (i know eoe's reject the papacy, i think). a man bows to him as they do the pope now and peter says not to bow in front of him because he is just a man. yet look what goes on now.

interpreting the wedding at canna in that sense is pulling things out of mid air. and adding to what was just mary saying hey they need wine. and it isnt said in that passage that jesus said...as mary has interceded for this wedding party she may interecede for you.....it doesnt and it goes against way too many scriptures. god does not contradict his word.

 

[setmeonfire]

She mediated for them to Jesus.

so did many others who had sick or dead family members that were unable to come to jesus themselves. you must apply that same principle to them and say that anyone who asks for jesus's help too are dispensers of grace in heaven and act as a mediator between christ and men. you cannot apply it to just mary and not everyone else in scripture who came to jesus. and john 2:11 says "his disciples put their faith ih him" not mary