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What does it matter?

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Iollain

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Scenerio:

A woman was given foreknowlege by God of your death. She saw that you would die in a burning building at some unknown time and point in your life. She was told by God that she could have a son that would save you, if only she accepted the burden that accompanied it, which included the death of her own son. She accepted this burden and brought forth a son, whom she raised and loved. The time came for her son to fulfill the purpose of his life...to save your life. Your destiny had been changed by her decision to follow God's will. You no longer die in a burning building, but live as a result of His death.



You said:

Still...I am curious as to why YOU believe it is blasphemous...









Then i said:


Where do i start?

How about the belief that Mary is the holder and decision maker of grace?

HOw about the Total Consecration to Mary, which would take the qualities that the Holy Ghost posesses to do? Is there a Mary Spirit?




How about we say that you are the holder and decision maker of grace?

How about we ask you to come live in us and we pray throught you? How is Mary doing this if there is not a Mary Spirit?

Who lives in us? And if the Holy Spirit is living in us then where did this Mary Spirit come from and is it not blasphemy to replace Mary with the Holy Ghost?




And if God is the holder and decision maker of grace, what is it to say that Mary is the holder and decision maker of grace?

It is blasphemy.

-----------------------




Now what does that have to do with Mary accepting to give birth to Messiah?
 
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StTherese

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You said:

Still...I am curious as to why YOU believe it is blasphemous...









Then i said:


Where do i start?

How about the belief that Mary is the holder and decision maker of grace?

HOw about the Total Consecration to Mary, which would take the qualities that the Holy Ghost posesses to do? Is there a Mary Spirit?




How about we say that you are the holder and decision maker of grace?

How about we ask you to come live in us and we pray throught you? How is Mary doing this if there is not a Mary Spirit?

Who lives in us? And if the Holy Spirit is living in us then where did this Mary Spirit come from and is it not blasphemy to replace Mary with the Holy Ghost?




And if God is the holder and decision maker of grace, what is it to say that Mary is the holder and decision maker of grace?

It is blasphemy.

-----------------------




Now what does that have to do with Mary accepting to give birth to Messiah?
Well, the answer seems obvious to me. Mary gave birth to our salvation. She is the mother of all grace because through her obedience to God in bearing His Son, we have the Messiah, who is the gift of grace given to the world for our eternal salvation.
 
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Rhamiel

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Uphill, I think this was a very good idea for a thread, to reaffirm my earlier statement, belief in the Immaculate Conception, Perpetual Virginity, Assumption into Heaven, and Coronation as Queen of Heaven, I do not think this adds to or subtracts from your salvation. But it is good to believe in this because this is the truth and the truth holds inherent value. The deeper understanding of Our Lady leads to deeper personal growth, the Catholic Church is not interested in the bare minimum truth, just enough to get you saved, but in the fullness of truth.
On the other hand not accepting the afore mentioned beliefs makes you a heretic because you claim to teach the truth but instead preach error. Hearsay is a sin. I have to kick this one around a bit, it makes sense but I do not know if I am right.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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I'd be interested to know what Marian Dogma has to do with the trinity.

The fact that Christ is truely God...

That is why we call her Theotokos... It's not about her, but rather about him.

Forgive me...
 
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Uphill Battle

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The fact that Christ is truely God...

That is why we call her Theotokos... It's not about her, but rather about him.

Forgive me...
I do not deny her as Theotokos.

I still question what that has to do with Dogmas regarding sinlessness, etc...
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Please allow me to make something extremly clear.

The RCC view of Mary and The Orthodox view of Mary are NOT the same.

They are related certainly, but there are many beliefs about Mary in the RCC that do not exist in The Orthodox Church and vice versa.

We can't talk about Mariology ~ Protestant vs Catholic & Orthodox. It just won't work.

Please keep in mind that these two Churches are very different.

Forgive me...
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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I do not deny her as Theotokos.

I still question what that has to do with Dogmas regarding sinlessness, etc...

How could I possibly answer this?

Sinlessness of Mary is not Orthodox.

Blameless yes, sinless no.

Forgive me...
 
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Uphill Battle

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Please allow me to make something extremly clear.

The RCC view of Mary and The Orthodox view of Mary are NOT the same.

They are related certainly, but there are many beliefs about Mary in the RCC that do not exist in The Orthodox Church and vice versa.

We can't talk about Mariology ~ Protestant vs Catholic & Orthodox. It just won't work.

Please keep in mind that these two Churches are very different.

Forgive me...
and it makes me wonder how we can even begin to believe the claims of one or the other! They both claim the same distinction.

I will say this, that I am far more likely to turn Orthodox than I ever would Roman Catholic. And I know when arguing, Some of the venom comes out towards Orthodox that is not due them. The blend of believes between EO and RCC are very easy to confuse, because depending on which thread you are in, they argue with, or against each other.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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and it makes me wonder how we can even begin to believe the claims of one or the other! They both claim the same distinction.

I will say this, that I am far more likely to turn Orthodox than I ever would Roman Catholic. And I know when arguing, Some of the venom comes out towards Orthodox that is not due them. The blend of believes between EO and RCC are very easy to confuse, because depending on which thread you are in, they argue with, or against each other.

I am sorry my friend, but I cannot answer for The Church of Rome.

Forgive me...
 
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StTherese

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I. MARY'S MOTHERHOOD WITH REGARD TO THE CHURCH
Wholly united with her Son . . .
964 Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. "This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death";502 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:
[SIZE=-1]Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."503[/SIZE]
965 After her Son's Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."504 In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."505
. . . also in her Assumption
966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."506 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:
[SIZE=-1]In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.507[/SIZE]
. . . she is our Mother in the order of grace
967 By her complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity. Thus she is a "preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)508 of the Church.
968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."509
969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."510
[SIZE=-1]970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."511 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."512[/SIZE]
II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN
971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515
III. MARY - ESCHATOLOGICAL ICON OF THE CHURCH
972 After speaking of the Church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary. In her we contemplate what the Church already is in her mystery on her own "pilgrimage of faith," and what she will be in the homeland at the end of her journey. There, "in the glory of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity," "in the communion of all the saints,"516 the Church is awaited by the one she venerates as Mother of her Lord and as her own mother.
[SIZE=-1]In the meantime the Mother of Jesus, in the glory which she possesses in body and soul in heaven, is the image and beginning of the Church as it is to be perfected in the world to come. Likewise she shines forth on earth until the day of the Lord shall come, a sign of certain hope and comfort to the pilgrim People of God.517[/SIZE]
 
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Iollain

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Well, the answer seems obvious to me. Mary gave birth to our salvation. She is the mother of all grace because through her obedience to God in bearing His Son, we have the Messiah, who is the gift of grace given to the world for our eternal salvation.

That has nothing to do with what i was talking about. I was talking about the Total Consecration and the belief that Mary is NOW the giver and distributer of God's grace. So you are either ignoring the belief or ignoring what i'm talking about.
 
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simonthezealot

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30. Just as in natural and bodily generation there is a father and a mother, so in the supernatural and spiritual generation there is a father who is God and a mother who is Mary. All true children of God have God for their father and Mary for their mother; anyone who does not have Mary for his mother, does not have God for his father. This is why the reprobate, such as heretics and schismatics, who hate, despise or ignore the Blessed Virgin, do not have God for their father though they arrogantly claim they have, because they do not have Mary for their mother. Indeed if they had her for their mother they would love and honour her as good and true children naturally love and honour the mother who gave them life. An infallible and unmistakable sign by which we can distinguish a heretic, a man of false doctrine, an enemy of God, from one of God's true friends is that the heretic and the hardened sinner show nothing but contempt and indifference for our Lady. He endeavours by word and example, openly or insidiously - sometimes under specious pretexts - to belittle the love and veneration shown to her. God the Father has not told Mary to dwell in them because they are, alas, other Esaus.
Is she one and the same as the Holy Spirit? more on that later...
Looks like we better start worrying according to de montfort (true devotions)
 
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sunlover1

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That has nothing to do with what i was talking about. I was talking about the Total Consecration and the belief that Mary is NOW the giver and distributer of God's grace. So you are either ignoring the belief or ignoring what i'm talking about.

Hi Iollian
:wave:
Who said she is this? The giver and
distributor of God's grace?
</IMG>

thanks,
sunlover
 
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StTherese

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Also from the same website:

Objection
Protestants object to this , saying that there is only one mediator: 1 Tim 2:5. We agree that there are many ways in which Christ is the only mediator between God and man. 1) There is only one mediator who is such by very nature, being both true God and true man. 2) There is only one mediator whose whose work is necessary, without whom, in God's plan, there could be no salvation. 3) There is only one mediator who depends on no one else for power.
Mary differs on all three counts. 1) Mary only a creature, but it was appropriate that God be freely choose her as Mediatrix because he had made her Mother of the God-man, the Redeemer--it was she who on behalf of the whole human race consented to God's plan of salvation by proclaiming herself the handmaid of the Lord. 2) Her role was not necessary, since Christ was and is the perfect Redeemer and the perfect Mediator. Rather, Mary was associated with her Son by the free decision of the Father, a decision which we cannot ignore. 3) Her whole ability to do anything comes entirely from her Son, and hence we are not contradicting Lumen gentium # 62 which says no creature can be ever counted together with Him.


Really, the Father did not need her at all, except that if He decreed the incarnation, He necessarily decreed a Mother: she was and is that Mother. But everything else in which He has employed her is not needed.
Yet, if we recall the economy of redemption, it is clear that the Father wants everything to be as rich as possible, so that He will not stop with something lesser if there is more than can be done. Really, the incarnation in a palace, without death, would have been infinite in merit and satisfaction, as we have seen in the section on her cooperation in the redemption.


Further, the principle of St. Thomas helps here. In Summa Theologiae I. 19. 5. c., Thomas says that it pleases God to have one thing in place to serve as a title or reason for granting something further, even though that title does not move Him. It is His love of all goodness and good order that leads Him to act this way. Hence too, even though Calvary earned infinite forgiveness and graces, the Father wills to provide titles for giving out these, in the Mass. Even though He did not need even our Lady, yet He willed to employ her. Even though there is no need of any other saints, in objective or subjective redemption, yet He wills to add them--all to make everything, every title, as rich as possible.


Lumen gentium speaks of her as taking care of all her children. We are extremely numerous, but yet not infinite in number. Therefore, we are not too numerous for her to see and care for. For her capacity for that infinite vision of God is in proportion to her love on earth, so great that Pius IX, as we saw, said it was so great that "none greater under God can be thought of, and no one but God can comprehend it."
Is her mediation merely by intercession, prayer for us to her Son and to God the Father? Or does she also play a role in the distribution of graces from the Father through her Son to us? Many today, influenced by Protestant theology, tend to speak of grace merely as favor, and so say grace is not a thing given. But that would imply Pelagianism, the heresy that says that we can be saved by our own power. For if God merely sits there and smiles at me, and gives me nothing, that would mean that I had to do it by my own power.
So we answer, since Mary was associated with her Son in acquiring grace for us, she will also share with him in distributing that grace to us. This fits well with the words of the Popes, who call her the administra of grace, meaning that she administers or dispenses it. So Pope Leo XIII, Iucunda semper, said:
"... when He [the Father] has been invoked with excellent prayers, our humble voice turns to Mary; in accordance with no other law than that law of conciliation and petition which was expressed as follows by St. Bernardine of Siena : 'Every grace that is communicated to this world has a threefold course. For by excellent order, it is dispensed from God to Christ, from Christ to the Virgin, from the Virgin to us.'"
Continue on to Teaching of the Popes and Vatican II on Mary's Mediation.

Excerpted and adapted from Theology 523: Our Lady in Doctrine and Devotion, by Father William G. Most.
Copyright (c) 1994 William G. Most
Electronic text (c) Copyright EWTN 1996. All rights reserved.
 
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sunlover1

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If the Marian dogmas are true then the Chruch is the RCC.

If they are not true then this Mary attention is blasphemy against God.

Makes sense.
 
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sunlover1

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sunlover1

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NO...this is in no way comparing Mary to the Holy Spirit.

'Every grace that is communicated to this world has a threefold course.
For by excellent order,
it is dispensed from God
to Christ,
from Christ to the Virgin,
from the Virgin to us.'"

I am trying to understand how this is Biblical.
I don't understand.

Every grace (what does that mean?)
is communicated (meaning?)
to this world, ...
being dispensed (given)
FROM God
TO Christ
From Christ
TO Mary
FROM Mary to us.

:scratch:


 
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