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What does Col. 2:9 mean to you?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Dec 25, 2001.

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  1. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

    +71
    Eastern Orthodox
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    "Do you believe Jesus Blackhaw? Jesus says God is SPIRIT. Is Jesus a SPIRIT? No! He says he is flesh and bones. Niw, if GOD dwells in Christ bodily and that MAKES Jesus God, are you then saying that God is flesh and bones CONTRARY to what Jesus says?"

    Okay Ed then how do you interpret someone saying about another man that "In him DWELLS the FULLNESS of the DEITY bodily?" What else can Paul mean but that Jesus is God? Do we have the FULLNESS of GOD bodily? No. So what could He have meant?

    "Do you know the PUNISHMENT for NOT believing Jesus? Please don't take this lightly my friend."

    I don't take it lightly. That is why I believe that He is God and my savior.

    Blackhaw
     
  2. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +230
    Messianic
    Yeah ed, can't you see that the spirit of Jesus is the Spirit of God himself? Would that not harmonize well: the fact that Jesus's body is indeed fully human, flesh, a man; But his Spirit is God - thus making him BOTH fully man from his perspective from that body, but also fully God from the perspective of his place as the Spirit of God who is revealed as the Father?

    Can't you see the Father is the Spirit of God?

    Don't you know that the Spirit of God is the same as the Holy Spirit?

    In (the body of) Jesus, all the fullness of deity dwells.
     
  3. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Blackhaw,

    Before we go into the TRUE meaning of Col. 2:9, we must first agree on several TRUTHS. First, Paul was CERTAIN that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5). Second, Paul was CERTAIN that the FATHER is the ONLY ONE God of Christians (1 Cor. 8:6). Third, Paul was CERTAIN that the FATHER is the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ (Eph. 1:3; Col. 1:3).

    Now, with these TRUTHS in mind, the first thing that we MUST remove from our mind is the idea that Paul meant to convey the message that Jesus is God when he wrote Col. 2:9. This idea CONTRADICTS all the TRUTHS that Paul had written above.

    Next, we go back to Col. 2:8 and examine the context. What was Paul trying to warn the Christians to beware? He was warning them lest theyare cheated through philosophy and empty deceit that are according to traditions of men and the basic principles of the world and NOT according to Christ.

    For IN Christ DWELLS the OPPOSITE of philosophy, empty deceit , traditions of men and the rudiments of the world. And these are: holiness and righteousness. Yes Blackhaw, these are Christ's divine (coming from God) nature that DWELL in him bodily. Other versions of the Bible render "Godhead" as "divine nature." Check this out.

    Blackhaw, please don't fool yourself. Believing that Jesus is God means you believe OTHERS (Catholic Councils, Protestant pastors and evangelists) instead of believing Jesus. Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40) and Jesus says the FATHER is the ONLY (means nobody else, no one else, no one besides the Father) true God (John 17:3).

    You may PRETEND to believe Jesus but as long as you believe that he is God inspite of his saying that the FATHER is the ONLY true God, there is only one destination for you. And believe me, the Bible is NOT joking.

    Ed
     
  4. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Josephus,

    You wrote:
    The more you defend your faulty position my friend, the more you become unintelligible. Why can't you simply accept Jesus as your Lord or Master and believe what he says? He says he is a MAN (John 8:40). He looked up to heaven and said, "Father.... " (John 17:1). Then he IDENTIFIED the FATHER as the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Your argument that Jesus' body is MAN but his SPIRIT is God is PURE hogwash!

    You wrote:
    The Father is NOT the Spirit OF God. The Father is GOD, period. And God is SPIRIT. And this SAME spirit is Holy. Thus, there is no such thing as third person of the Trinity.

    You wrote:
    What is the FULLNESS of DEITY that dwells in Christ? Does it mean Christ is at the SAME time the Father? Then you are in dangerous grounds my friend. Jesus did not teach what you are proposing.

    Ed

    Edited by: Josephus
     
  5. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +230
    Messianic
    Jesus taught the Counselor will come in his place. Who is this Counselor if he is God, but not...the Father?

    Are you saying the Father is the "Counselor" that Jesus also speaks of? Hmm...interesting. If the Counselor and the Father are one and the same God, then you have the precedent for Jesus saying that the Father is something else as well.
     
  6. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
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    "First, Paul was CERTAIN that Jesus is a MAN "

    You're wrong here ed as his letters will show. IN several places paul puts Jesus on a higher then man status. Just read the intro to any of his letters and you will see that. Paul called him Lord, something you don't do unless you are commiting blasphy. that's LORD. not lord.
     
  7. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

    +71
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    Ed,

    "Before we go into the TRUE meaning of Col. 2:9, we must first agree on several TRUTHS. First, Paul was CERTAIN that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5)."

    1st How can you expect me to go with this since we are discussing a passage of Paul and whether or not he is saying that Jesus was God? That would be like you asking me to accept 2+2=5 before begginning a discussion of whether 2+2=5 or 4. It makes no sense.
    2nd the verses you gave me do not contradict Trinitarian doctrine. They just show the good news that Jesus was also a man. And that He is our mediator between God and us. that He paved the way for us to get back to Him. Really for Him to bring us back to Him.

    "Second, Paul was CERTAIN that the FATHER is the ONLY ONE God of Christians (1 Cor. 8:6)."

    Again you want me to say that Jesus is not God in a discussion of the Trinity. God the Father is the only God but so is Jesus. They are one in substance. 3 persons. So really this one I guess could be right and wrong it jsut would depend on how you mean it. And I know you mean to say that God the Father and not the other persons of the Godhead are God. So no you are wrong and it would be illogical for me to agree to this before arguing against it.


    "Third, Paul was CERTAIN that the FATHER is the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ (Eph. 1:3; Col. 1:3)."

    i have no problem with this one . This one as stated before (by more than just me) goes along with the Trinitarian doctrine.

    "Now, with these TRUTHS in mind, the first thing that we MUST remove from our mind is the idea that Paul meant to convey the message that Jesus is God when he wrote Col. 2:9. This idea CONTRADICTS all the TRUTHS that Paul had written above."

    No i won't because I do not believe what you said above.

    "Next, we go back to Col. 2:8 and examine the context. What was Paul trying to warn the Christians to beware? He was warning them lest theyare cheated through philosophy and empty deceit that are according to traditions of men and the basic principles of the world and NOT according to Christ. For IN Christ DWELLS the OPPOSITE of philosophy, empty deceit , traditions of men and the rudiments of the world. And these are: holiness and righteousness. Yes Blackhaw, these are Christ's divine (coming from God) nature that DWELL in him bodily. Other versions of the Bible render "Godhead" as "divine nature." Check this out."

    I believe that he was saying that those who believe that Jesus was not God were the ones looking at the philosophy of the world. Was not Collasse a greek city? If not it was very hellenized. I think that he was going against heresis. Maybe something like Gnosticism that said that we just need to know the right knowledge then we too can become gods like Jesus. He knew the secret knowledge that we too can find out. That is more like what I believe he was speaking against because that was going on around that time.

    Blackhaw
     
  8. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Josephus,

    You wrote:
    Does the Bible teach that the Counselor is God? Please show us the verse Josephus. No, the Counselor is NOT God. The Counselor is "A" Holy Spirit that COMES from God. The Bible says God has seven SPIRITS that He sends out into all the earth (Rev. 5:6).

    Ed
     
  9. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    LouisBooth,

    You say I'm wrong in saying that Paul was CERTAIN that Jesus is a MAN. Are you saying that Paul was NOT certain that Jesus was a MAN?

    Then tell me my friend, why did Paul say in Acts 17:31 that Jesus is a MAN? And why he apostle Paul wrote in 1 Tim. 2:5 that Jesus is a MAN if he was NOT certain that Jesus is a MAN?

    Apostle PaUl's calling Jesus LORD or Lord does NOT make Jesus God. Paul accepted Jesus as his Lord and it is only proper that he calls him Lord. But Paul made it clear in his first letter to the Corinthians that there is ONLY ONE God, the FATHER and ONLY ONE Lord, Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 8:6).

    Ed
     
  10. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Blackhaw,

    Don't you agree that Paul was CERTAIN Jesus is a MAN? Don't you think that if Paul was NOT certain that Jesus is a MAN, he wouldn't have written that "...the ONLY mediator between God and men is that MAN, Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5). Is Jesus the ONLY mediator yesterday, today or forever?

    You say that the verses I gave you do not contradict the Trinity. Then why can't you AGREE that these verses are TRUE?

    So you believe that 1 Cor. 8:6 is FALSE, right? Should we cut this out from our Bibles my friend? Or isn't it WISER to cast aside your FALSE belief and truly BELIEVE that 1 Cor. 8:6 is TRUE?

    Aha! So you only pick the verses that you think agree with your FALSE doctrine! Don't you think that's a dangerous thing to do?

    You don't believe the TRUTHS written in the Bible. That's okay with me. I'm not the one that will wait until the 1000 years reign of Christ is finished. Oh, by the way, has anyone told you that only those who believe in Jesus have life and will rise to meet him on judgment day and will reign with him 1000 years?

    Can you see why CONTEXT cannot be trusted to lead one to an accurate understanding of a verse? If the context does NOT agree with what one has in mind, the context is TWISTED to fit the mental picture one has.

    Go back to the TRUTH Blackhaw so you can arrive at the TRUE understanding of these controversial verses. And please heed God's invitation for you to come out of your FALSE church lest you share of her sins and receive of her plagues.

    Ed
     
  11. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +230
    Messianic
    "Does the Bible teach that the Counselor is God? Please show us the verse Josephus. No, the Counselor is NOT God. The Counselor is "A" Holy Spirit that COMES from God. The Bible says God has seven SPIRITS that He sends out into all the earth (Rev. 5:6)."

    So which Spirit is the Counselor? What are these seven spirits? What does it mean to be "baptized in the Holy Spirit?" Is the Holy Spirit one spirit or seven? Which one? What does it mean to be sealed by the Holy Spirit? Can I be sealed by the Counselor too? How about the Comforter? Is God incapable of comforting or counseling me that he has to have some underling to do it for him? Is God too busy for me ed? Tell me before you walk the line of blasphemy.
     
  12. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
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    "You say I'm wrong in saying that Paul was CERTAIN that Jesus is a MAN. "

    Its your unspoken word that I am saying is wrong. the word "just or only". YOu are saying Jesus is just a man or Jesus is only a man (implying he is not God). Paul never does this.
     
  13. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

    +71
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
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    "Don't you agree that Paul was CERTAIN Jesus is a MAN? Don't you think that if Paul was NOT certain that Jesus is a MAN, he wouldn't have written that "...the ONLY mediator between God and men is that MAN, Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5). Is Jesus the ONLY mediator yesterday, today or forever? "

    You are very tricky Ed. I tool # 1 to mean that you were saying, like always, that Jesus was JUST a man. But after rereading it you did not say that. so yes I agree that Jesus wa a man. But I also believe that Jesus was God.

    "You say that the verses I gave you do not contradict the Trinity. Then why can't you AGREE that these verses are
    TRUE?"

    I never said I did not agree with the verses. All Verses in the Bible are true.

    "So you believe that 1 Cor. 8:6 is FALSE, right? Should we cut this out from our Bibles my friend? Or isn't it WISER to cast aside your FALSE belief and truly BELIEVE that 1 Cor. 8:6 is TRUE?"

    No. the verse is right. And I made it clear to what I objected to in my post. Let me just quote myself here.

    "Again you want me to say that Jesus is not God in a discussion of the Trinity. God the Father is the only God but so is Jesus. They are one in substance. 3 persons. So really this one I guess could be right and wrong it jsut would depend on how you mean it. And I know you mean to say that God the Father and not the other persons of the Godhead are God. So no you are wrong and it would be illogical for me to agree to this before arguing against it. "

    So I was not objecting to the scripture or that God the Father was the only true God. But so Is Jesus and the H.S.. Basically as stated above I was objecting to your saying that God the Father was the only God meaning that Jesus and the H.S. are not God.


    "You don't believe the TRUTHS written in the Bible. That's okay with me. I'm not the one that will wait until the years reign of Christ is finished. Oh, by the way, has anyone told you that only those who believe in Jesus have life and will rise to meet him on judgment day and will reign with him 1000 years?"

    Whatever. I believe the truths of the bible and I believe in the Truth. You are the one that is in trouble.

    "Can you see why CONTEXT cannot be trusted to lead one to an accurate understanding of a verse? If the context
    does NOT agree with what one has in mind, the context is TWISTED to fit the mental picture one has."

    I do not know why you said this. But context is very important when interpreting scripture. You have to know the setting and who the author was speaking to whne he wrote the text. Without this you can twist scripture around so that it means anything you want. MAybe that Jesus is not God. That is what the INC does.

    "Go back to the TRUTH Blackhaw so you can arrive at the TRUE understanding of these controversial verses. And
    please heed God's invitation for you to come out of your FALSE church lest you share of her sins and receive of her
    plagues."


    I know the Truth Ed. Do you?

    Blackhaw


     
  14. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Josephus,

    Apparently you don't even read the verses I cite and you don't believe what the Bible teaches. Rev. 5:6 says that God has seven spirits that he sends out into all the world. The Bible does not say which of these is the counselor or the comforter. Jesus says he will send a comforter that comes frm the Father. Defnitely this comforter is NOT God because it comes FROM God.

    You want to know what it means to be sealed by the Holy Spirit? Read Eph. 1:13.

    Ed
     
  15. epobre

    epobre Guest

    +0
    Blackhaw,

    We have agreed that God CANNOT literally dwell in Christ bodily and make Jesus God because it would make God flesh and bones CONTRARY to what Jesus teaches (John 4:24; Luke 24:39). Therefore, we must find out what apostle Paul meant by the "FULLNESS of God" is that dwells in Christ.

    If we go back to Col. 2:8 and study the message, we can see that Paul was warning the Christians to beware lest they are deceived by philosophy that is ACCORDING to tradition of men and the rudiments of the world. Clearly Paul was talking of men's "sinful or carnal nature" which produce LIES.

    Paul says that these are NOT according to Christ. Why are these NOT according to Christ? Because Christ's nature which is opposite man's sinful or carnal nature is "holy and righteous" and produce TRUTHS.

    You still believe that Jesus is God DESPITE his saying that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3)?

    You sure take the Bible's warning VERY lightly!

    Ed
     
  16. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "We have agreed that God CANNOT literally dwell in Christ bodily and make Jesus God because it would make God flesh and bones CONTRARY to what Jesus teaches (John 4:24; Luke 24:39). "

    First of all ed, you're taking John 4:24 out of context, its talking about worshiping him in spirit!! Secoond Luke 24:39 says Jesus' ressurected body was flesh, yeah! that's right! but it DOESN'T say he wasn't God. NOW STOP TAKING VERSES AND TWISTING THEM! Its really starting to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] me off.

    "If we go back to Col. 2:8 and study the message, we can see that Paul was warning the Christians to beware lest they are deceived by philosophy that is ACCORDING to tradition of men and the rudiments of the world"

    No Paul was talking about people like you that twist scripture to mean something it is not. Jesus clearly say he was the "great I AM, he showed it by forgiving sins. col 2:9 says it and so does the book of John. Now stop twisting scripture! Jesus is God and that's what the bible says.
     
  17. Kanuk

    Kanuk Guest

    +0
    It means that God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in Jesus in his bodily resurrection. Same idea at Col 1:19 and 1 Cor 15:45; Jn 4:24.

    In the very next verse, Col 2:10 Paul explains that we Christians therefore also have this fullness. Shall we then claim we are God too?

    Kanuk
     
  18. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    No, you misunderstand that statement. *sigh* it gets tiring seeing people not understand the bible. First of all, get a greek translation and look at the words. That should help you. Contrary to what most people think by their reading the bible was not written in english! *gasp* First of all it says fullness in Christ, NOT THE SAME FULLNESS!!! Make sure you read carefully next time ;)
     
  19. epobre

    epobre Guest

    +0
    LouisBooth,

    Your THINKING stinks Louis! Isn't it TRUE that God is SPIRIT? Regardless of CONTEXT, John 4:24 tells us that God is SPIRIT. Isn't that TRUE?

    It's true that Luke 24:39 doesn't say that Jesus is not God. But use the little intelligence that you probably have and think, no matter how hard that maybe for you. Jesus says a SPIRIT which God is, does NOT have FLESH like he has. Doesn't this tell you that Jesus is NOT spirit because he has flesh and therefore, is NOT God?

    It' truly hard to defend a FALSE doctrine Louis. If makes you TWIST and [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]es you off. I really can't blame you.

    Ed
     
  20. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "Regardless of CONTEXT"

    That's your problem ed, taking things out of context means twisting it to mean anything you want it to mean.

    "Jesus says a SPIRIT which God is, does NOT have FLESH like he has. "

    So then God the father can't be God either according to you ed. God the father appeared in the burning bush and a spirit doesn't have leaves either..so who is your God ed? The chips are down and the fact is, you're a false teacher and the bible proves you are.
     
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